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Paths of Civilization

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@Academia Nut A few questions.

Can you describe how our hero will try to drive the nomads South East (as in, will it target only the eastern half of the horde, what terrain will they be driven through, etc)?

What methods will our hero use to try and relieve the MW, and how will getting Size+Portability boats change his strategy?

Is the Hathatyn hero hostile to us?
 
My vote by the way unless someone can give a good argument for strategy.

[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Relieve the west
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
Maybe because it's two in the morning here but I'm starting to lose the ability to understand what the fuck some of you guys are saying in your arguments.

I'll try to reply in the morning
 
Abby Normal said:
how heavy is (/does our martial hero think) the difference between mass recruitment and smaller recruitment on the the south-east strategy chances?
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The south-east strategy should probably not be tried without heavy recruitment.

hylas240 said:
Can you describe how our hero will try to drive the nomads South East (as in, will it target only the eastern half of the horde, what terrain will they be driven through, etc)?

What methods will our hero use to try and relieve the MW, and how will getting Size+Portability boats change his strategy?

Is the Hathatyn hero hostile to us?
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He will attempt to prod, cajole, and entice them to get swinging towards the south-east, and then provide a hard barrier of battle to get them to decide to focus upon the Thunder Speakers instead, with the hope that they will discover the pass and keep going.

Kill nomads in the west. Larger boats means that more warriors can be transported, and they can use the rivers to go north in force and thus begin pressuring the nomads from unexpected angles. The boats are useful for this in all strategies.

Oh yes, expect war next turn or possibly the turn after if they stall on the Highlanders. The Hathatyn have a reconquest casus belli on Hatriver and a good chunk of Southshore and pretty much have to use it or risk losing legitimacy and stability.
 
Academia Nut said:
Oh yes, expect war next turn or possibly the turn after if they stall on the Highlanders. The Hathatyn have a reconquest casus belli on Hatriver and a good chunk of Southshore and pretty much have to use it or risk losing legitimacy and stability.
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*laughs hysterically*

Well, we'd better roll good on the north. Would it be possible for us to do a pre-emptive attack upon them while they're attacking the HK?
 
Glassware said:
Ah. Well...sounds like we can definitely expect to need to swap to Offense policy next turn.
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Yeeeeep. Whenever we next get the chance @notgreat's plan to do this should work:

[Main] New Trails
[Secondary] Enforce Justice
[Secondary] Change Policy Offense

They will probably just send war missions if we do not lose too much Martial.

The Enforce is likely to only give 1 Cent, taking us to 4 Cent and will give one stability. The Trails will do a big step to fixing our problems and get us to 5 Cent. Little sketchy with the below average admin but we can probably deal.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM, finished with 51582 posts and 93 votes.
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Well, pretty late to the party, so just going to go over the options before deciding:


[] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)

This option gives us a shot at evolving Quality of it's Own, relieves further Centralization pressure(we'd need to fix this with lots of New Trails next though), but is expensive to our Econ slots(in that we'd need a New Settlement to replenish it next turn).

It's necessary if we picked one of the more challenging strategies, I don't think we can drive them anywhere without this.
May cause Martial overflow once Economy rebounds, if we don't evolve Quantity of it's own

[] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)

Going to need at least this if we want to go save the MWs.

[] [Recruit] Focus on the next generation (+4 Econ, -4 Expansion)

If we just focus on the center then this is all we need. Lots of room to work in.


[] [Strategy] Hold the center

Easiest strategy, but gives the Nomads room to snowball

[] [Strategy] Relieve the west

Harder, focusess on preventing them from getting much metal, but we know they've been looting metal off the TS already

[] [Strategy] Drive them south-east

Set the lowlands on fire again. It's a time honored strategy, if a difficult one. Only a Heroic Martial king could pull it off, but if it works it deals with all the problems at once

[] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom

Wildcard, but a pretty huge one.
Hopefully it applies to Honor of Elites(since a Library triggered Honor of Elites advance is the most likely to move away from pure martial elites), but we know EVERY trait evolution tends to be the best thing we can get long term.

[] [Library] Free Study Metal (Guaranteed breakthrough)

Probably Case Hardening from our known materials, which is a step closer to steel.
Or we might get early Blast Furnaces which would make iron FAR cheaper to produce in bulk.

[] [Library] Free Study Tailings (Guaranteed breakthrough)

Discovery of sulfur and the like.

[] [Library] Free Study Forests (Guaranteed breakthrough)

Apiaries?

[] [Library] Free Survey (Guaranteed Good or better result)

More metal or luxury deposits.

Overall, the Guaranteed breakthroughs aren't so tempting, because with the Library we can take Study actions pretty cheaply and with huge bonuses.


[] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
[] [Boats] Increase speed while maintaining portability

Both of these are good for counterraiding the Nomads. Portable Size is more important for us however, since being able to run lots of dudes up the small rivers allows us to have nomad mobility on water and treat them to being outnumbered anywhere along the river

[] [Boats] New design: Emphasize size

Useful if only there was anything at sea there.

[] [Boats] New design: Emphasize speed

Not sure why we'd rush for this.

And it turns out the vote is mostly already leading, but whynot

[X] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Drive them south-east
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
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veekie said:
Well, pretty late to the party, so just going to go over the options before deciding:


[] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)

This option gives us a shot at evolving Quality of it's Own, relieves further Centralization pressure(we'd need to fix this with lots of New Trails next though), but is expensive to our Econ slots(in that we'd need a New Settlement to replenish it next turn).

It's necessary if we picked one of the more challenging strategies, I don't think we can drive them anywhere without this.
May cause Martial overflow once Economy rebounds, if we don't evolve Quantity of it's own

[] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)

Going to need at least this if we want to go save the MWs.

[] [Recruit] Focus on the next generation (+4 Econ, -4 Expansion)

If we just focus on the center then this is all we need. Lots of room to work in.


[] [Strategy] Hold the center

Easiest strategy, but gives the Nomads room to snowball

[] [Strategy] Relieve the west

Harder, focusess on preventing them from getting much metal, but we know they've been looting metal off the TS already

[] [Strategy] Drive them south-east

Set the lowlands on fire again. It's a time honored strategy, if a difficult one. Only a Heroic Martial king could pull it off, but if it works it deals with all the problems at once

[] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom

Wildcard, but a pretty huge one.
Hopefully it applies to Honor of Elites(since a Library triggered Honor of Elites advance is the most likely to move away from pure martial elites), but we know EVERY trait evolution tends to be the best thing we can get long term.

[] [Library] Free Study Metal (Guaranteed breakthrough)

Probably Case Hardening from our known materials, which is a step closer to steel.
Or we might get early Blast Furnaces which would make iron FAR cheaper to produce in bulk.

[] [Library] Free Study Tailings (Guaranteed breakthrough)

Discovery of sulfur and the like.

[] [Library] Free Study Forests (Guaranteed breakthrough)

Apiaries?

[] [Library] Free Survey (Guaranteed Good or better result)

More metal or luxury deposits.

Overall, the Guaranteed breakthroughs aren't so tempting, because with the Library we can take Study actions pretty cheaply and with huge bonuses.


[] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
[] [Boats] Increase speed while maintaining portability

Both of these are good for counterraiding the Nomads. Portable Size is more important for us however, since being able to run lots of dudes up the small rivers allows us to have nomad mobility on water and treat them to being outnumbered anywhere along the river

[] [Boats] New design: Emphasize size

Useful if only there was anything at sea there.

[] [Boats] New design: Emphasize speed

Not sure why we'd rush for this.

And it turns out the vote is mostly already leading, but whynot

[X] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Drive them south-east[] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom[] [X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase speed while maintaining portability
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Hey veekie there has been several wog's that say portability + size is the best out of the options, with portability + speed a likely close second and your vote is kinda borked line wise.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 10, 2017 at 9:52 PM, finished with 51584 posts and 94 votes.
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veekie said:
If we just focus on the center then this is all we need. Lots of room to work in.
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I mean, the update does specifically mention that that option would spread us thin and have our hero emphasize "if he got more warriors"
veekie said:
[X] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Drive them south-east[] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom[] [X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase speed while maintaining portability
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Your vote is borked...also, did you mean to do size+portable? Your bit here:
veekie said:
Both of these are good for counterraiding the Nomads. Portable Size is more important for us however, since being able to run lots of dudes up the small rivers allows us to have nomad mobility on water and treat them to being outnumbered anywhere along the river
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certainly suggests it...
 
veekie said:
Overall, the Guaranteed breakthroughs aren't so tempting, because with the Library we can take Study actions pretty cheaply and with huge bonuses.
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The big cost for Study actions has always been the action, not any other part of the price. We're not likely to be doing study actions anytime soon, even with the Library.

On a different subject, we're currently setting ourselves up to try to force the gambit without the military to back it up - the small military boost is almost locked in, and it's not likely to be enough for something fancy.
 
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veekie said:
[] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)

This option gives us a shot at evolving Quality of it's Own, relieves further Centralization pressure(we'd need to fix this with lots of New Trails next though), but is expensive to our Econ slots(in that we'd need a New Settlement to replenish it next turn).
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AN said we avoided many civil wars specifically because we didn't give nobles personal armies. With taking Centralisation to 1, the additional effects, and the negative stability, this is a very bad option to pick. It will not evolve Quality of Its Own, it'll just give nobles personal armies and, since it includes Expand Economy, might give them even more than that. You absolutely must look at this option as more than just a way to free up more Centralisation for trails.
 
[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Strategy] Relieve the west
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability

Ok, i'm gonna give my opinion on various options (both ones i've picked and ones I haven't). Let's start by order.

  • Mass recruitment would authorize our provinces to recruit/train soldiers on their own, drop our centralization to 1, and put us in severe economic distress. While we could just do EJ to fix the centralization stat, the sudden drop and circumstances of the drop itself would most likely result in a government type shift and local chiefs having small standing armies (really bad). While we would get professional solder citizens, that's something we could do ourselves and is not a unique effect. Also, having 1 centralization would require us to dedicate actions to raise it back up...which will prevent us from dealing with the nomads on top of the Hathatyn hero nearly as easily.
  • While the Study options are tempting, evolving a trait is diificult, as we don't have a specific action we can do to improve them like study actions. There is also our traits to consider...all our social traits are really strong and developed, so having one evolve further will make them even more OP. Our spiritual traits are strong and developed except for Honorable Death, so having any of them evolve is nice/good. Our Honor traits however, are all tier-1...having any of them evolve would lessen the leash they have on us considerably as well as make our martial aspects more powerful (which is important obviously).
  • Tempting them to the South east would be awesome if it wasn't risky as hell without mass recruitment. Crushing the West horde would probably let us vassalize the MW...or just make them allies (preventing the nomads from getting a steady source of loot/bronze weapons is really important too). It also leaves our eastern section weakened, so the Stallion tribes will have to throw their martial into keeping it secure until we can reinforce them after the Western horde is killed/driven away. It's important to remember though that the nomads aren't focusing on us specifically, they're attacking the MW, and TS as well...the eastern nomads were driven off unfortunately. This opens up an issue...if we kill the West Horde, it might upset the East Horde's hero (as that's the heir) and cause them to focus on us.
  • Scaling up size while keeping portability will give us something like longships, which will greatly help any of the strategies. We'll have to branch into a separate design for size though.
 
Candesce said:
On a different subject, we're currently setting ourselves up to try to force the gambit without the military to back it up - the small military boost is almost locked in, and it's not likely to be enough for something fancy.
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Shockingly, most of the thread fails to consider options in aggregate as a plan when there's anything vaguely complex happening. Who knew?
 
[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Strategy] Relieve the west
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability

updating vote after WoG
 
hylas240 said:
While the Study options are tempting, evolving a trait is diificult, as we don't have a specific action we can do to improve them like study actions.
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The thing I especially like, is that evolutions we get this way are flavoured by how we got them - and combining the Library's focus on study with any of our military traits might get us a study of war.

That'd be a really big deal.
Umi-san said:
I'll definitely support it after we finish doing PttS.
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You'd put it off that far in the future? Glassware's right to worry.
 
Candesce said:
The thing I especially like, is that evolutions we get this way are flavoured by how we got them - and combining the Library's focus on study with any of our military traits might get us a study of war.

That'd be a really big deal.

You'd put it off that far in the future? Glassware's right to worry.
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Yeah, i'm really looking forward to how any of our traits evolve with the Library's influence.
 
[X] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Drive them south-east
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
hylas240 said:
Mass recruitment would authorize our provinces to recruit/train soldiers on their own, drop our centralization to 1, and put us in severe economic distress. While we could just do EJ to fix the centralization stat, the sudden drop and circumstances of the drop itself would most likely result in a government type shift and local chiefs having small standing armies (really bad). While we would get professional solder citizens, that's something we could do ourselves and is not a unique effect. Also, having 1 centralization would require us to dedicate actions to raise it back up...which will prevent us from dealing with the nomads on top of the Hathatyn hero nearly as easily
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I don't think it's all that likely we will see immediate government change, and frankly we're almost certainly going to Offense policy next turn which means three main war actions so the action cost of enforce justice and new trails is not such a big deal especially considering their other effects of improved stab and better roads.
 
[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Strategy] Relieve the west
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability

Remembered that i didn't vote for strategy the first time around, but now that we've got smaller recruitment decisively winning, and a bunch more WoG's, time to vote on that too :p

Though first...
@Academia Nut
A couple things that i remember coming up in discussion:
1. if our econ is below 3, and thus not giving us martial via our Quality value, is it still possible to lose econ via martial loss? Is there a formula for when we lose econ from martial losses and how much, and are you willing to share it with us?
2. Do our people have any idea what sort of metal breakthrough the shamans might be close to? Like, are they aware of which metal(s) they might be close to figuring out something special for? I don't really expect there to be an answer here, but if so it would obviously be useful to planning :p
 
Candesce said:
On a different subject, we're currently setting ourselves up to try to force the gambit without the military to back it up - the small military boost is almost locked in, and it's not likely to be enough for something fancy.
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It doesn't help that we only got word that we shouldn't half ass the southeast gambit until relatively recently. Probably a lot of the people who voted for that would change their vote if they knew but the thread moves very fast and some are probably asleep now.
 
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