[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[X] [Corruption] Burn occupational administration down (-2 Stability, switches to geographic admin within Valleyhome)
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change

Burn it down. We went from guilds, to guilds AND unions, to guilds, unions, and ACTUAL MAFIA in the span of 40 years. Time to admit occupational administration creates some pretty shitty types of power blocks and switch to something a little more even-handed.
 
Wouldn't Love of Wisdom make our Priests and Shamans very good at making other People's spiritual leaders look like fools due to their practice of challenging beliefs?
 
The problem is over-extesion, but we might turn them on a colony...
Yeah, that would be a likely scenario if the MW take a big enough hit from the Waaagh!

Since we helped them earlier, it would make sense for them to ask for temporary (from their perspective) protection in order to rebuild. We of course wouldn't let it be temporary.
 
Burn it down. We went from guilds, to guilds AND unions, to guilds, unions, and ACTUAL MAFIA in the span of 40 years. Time to admit occupational administration creates some pretty shitty types of power blocks and switch to something a little more even-handed.
it was due to an innovation roll unrelated to the policy itself.
So... regarding the rolls.

For your Innovation challenge you rolled a 6 last turn and a 1 this turn, when you've been on the cusp of a discovery for quite some time, so I decided that this indicated active suppression of innovation.

You also rolled doubles twice for mysticism related things, so I decided that it was a shaman who uncovered the conspiracy. In this instance a medical shaman who was once a Blackbird who enjoyed the mystical aspects so much he transferred over to Carrion Eater training before retiring to an inner city hospice.

He may be named Mordin.
 
Now catching up on everything else...
So... regarding the rolls.

For your Innovation challenge you rolled a 6 last turn and a 1 this turn, when you've been on the cusp of a discovery for quite some time, so I decided that this indicated active suppression of innovation.
Ah, truly shitty luck.
You also rolled doubles twice for mysticism related things, so I decided that it was a shaman who uncovered the conspiracy. In this instance a medical shaman who was once a Blackbird who enjoyed the mystical aspects so much he transferred over to Carrion Eater training before retiring to an inner city hospice.

He may be named Mordin.
Main More Blackbirds desirable, got it. We have some room for them now too.
Then there are the Metal Workers, who rolled a 1 last turn for their survey action, and then a 1 again this turn, while also rolling shit on their "general success", so I ruled that they blew up.
Dug Too Deep.
They got Dwarf Fortressed.

The Swamp Folk rolled a 1 on their war roll to keep eating the southern lowlands, the Xoh critically succeeded on their war roll, and then burned their golden age to complete a plot they have been working on for generations to get the ruling Thunder Horse to intermarry with them and prefer to live in their city and worship their gods.
...I'm still somewhat confounded how they convinced the Thunder Horse that Moloch Calls was a desirable belief system.

But their pottery is so pretty...
The Highlanders critically succeeded on taking a bite out of the Hathatyn. The Hathatyn will either stabilize under a heroic leader with thoughts of revenge, or collapse completely next turn.
That's going to complicate the Lowlands a lot if they stabilize, since they'd drag the Highlanders into a two front war with the Hathatyn Hero behind and the Xohyssiri in front, but the Xohysirri Empire will be fighting a two front war with the Nomads scouring the Thunder Speakers and the Highlanders on the other.

Nope! Every trading post can support a saltern, so instead of +1/2 after the first one, every saltern/expansion after the first gives +1 if there is a trading post to support it.

Also, forgot to update all of the prestige you got from the temple and the salt gift.
Oh wow, this shit prints money.

Because of your values, you are not aggressively expanding into Hathatyn territory like that. Your borders have remained the same, even as you encourage more people to drain out of the territory and into your population.
Basically bleeding them out slowly as things go on, so we don't get as much land other than grabbing up their border settlements and possibly occupying their river mouth?

With the benefit that their resultant Hero won't be as hostile towards us if shit catches on fire.

]
Getting the equivalent of +1 Stable would solve the issue, but to have everything go well enough you want the equivalent of the +2 Stab, and the higher you roll the more remnants you mop up and the more the People support the actions. Having a Heroic Admin and Diplomat does help a lot though.
For Great Justice!

Thunder Horse due to abusing a rule about vassals, followed by you. There's a status regarding having the highest regional prestige.
Are they doing the "I have the Thunder Speakers and Xohyssiri as vassals, then the Xohyssiri hold my Swamp Folk vassals" trick to dodge the cap or some other stunt?


They're mostly around the waterways, and their primary use at this point would be a momentum break for chariot attacks. With watchtowers you can signal people to move and those out in the fields will have more time to get behind walls.

Can't really be helped given the aridity.

This is probably his last turn.
His reign started with the fire of hemp and ended with the fires of nations.


Silver and lead ore. Very high in trade value. Also good for bludgeon traps.
Lead also helps with making smaller ornaments. It's heavy but malleable, so it's great for experimental artwork even if it'd bear basically no weight.
I just dislike having any periphery state having an iron mine and the Stallions have stayed too long as a periphery state for me to be comfortable with. This last update showed they want more access to our resources which is denied to them on the basis of being a March.
Not true. They have more rights regarding independent military action, but they are not able to found new provinces. A Colony can found new provinces.
I don't know if i'd go with that particular dichotomy:

Seems less "political vs scholarship" and more "government/admin vs religious/scholarship"
Considering we've already had warnings from our admin king about the complexity of governing valleyhome with our current system, i think the admin boost would be best
Admin/Political vs Scholarship/Religious

I strongly favor Scholarship, because I think the Palace(which is next in line) should be what you actually use if you want to solve Admin problems, and that the true value of the Library is preserving the purpose and meaning of our academic discoveries before time causes them to drift away.

But I'd admit that it's not like building a library for admin/political purposes is going to be a disaster. It's second best, but it's not going to be anything like a threat or disaster.

Ideally, we do a Great Library in Sacred Forest, setting the keeping of knowledge as a sacred duty first, then we build the extended project branch version in Valleyhome to provide that lore to the administration once it's been nicely solidified that truth is sacred to it.
@Abby Normal actually make a good point for the Library in Valleyhome causing an admin upgrade. I figure with the recent law issues, our Library is going to be crucial in evolving that most dread of beasts. The Lawyer. No matter where we put it.
So what will it mean for their development for each site.

In Valleyhome:
Pro: Will be faced with the problem immediately. Likely development in short order of Lawyer profession. Institutional knowledge will build quickly. Will be focused on corruption in particular.
Con: Politically biased Lawyers may interpret the Law unfairly and unjustly. Will be focused on corruption in particular, letting other parts fall behind.

In Sacred Forest:
Pro: Will be unbiased. Institutional knowledge will build quickly. Will have a more general focus on The Law.
Con: Will develop slower. Will be some distance of travel for their centre, impacting journeying lawyers and the king.

My thoughts.
Loosely agree on all but the bolded. Sacred Forest is the center of religion and research, with the highest per capita Intellectual ratio . It developing slowly does not make sense when most of the Valleyhome population will nto be contributing to it.

Rather it's:
-Sacred Forest - Focused on rituals, the study of stars, forests and metal.
-Valleyhome - Focused on administrative and psychological lore, the study and philosophy of dealing with shitloads of people.
Y'all realize that cracking down on the lumpers now means that the splitters will be left unchecked next turn just as the diplo-admin hero who couldn't even keep a lid on this mess is replaced by an average schlub, right?
The splitters are less of a problem, even if less desirable than truly balanced situations, it doesn't calcify easily since the power is dispersed widely.

If anything, this particular crisis helps with that, since the plotters were dumb enough to show up under a Heroic King, and are relatively simple to deal with as a result.

Deploy Force would not have been fun, even if necessary to set a strong precedent, if we didn't have a Hero backin it.
 
Wouldn't Love of Wisdom make our Priests and Shamans very good at making other People's spiritual leaders look like fools due to their practice of challenging beliefs?
Eh, it depends. If our priests can prove that their belief are dumb right there, it might make them look very good. If they can't then it could make them look bad as they're challenging the religious traditions. I doubt they'd wait on a heretic (from their perspective) to prove them wrong.
 
Wouldn't Love of Wisdom make our Priests and Shamans very good at making other People's spiritual leaders look like fools due to their practice of challenging beliefs?
Probably. We must be developing some form of questioning of logic and methodology for asking questions.
 
I thought about it, but no.

Multiple reasons:
I do not want us to become a crusading people, and since Xohyssiri clearly intend to go into this direction the clash would be early, and fierce.

I also don't want to give too much political influence into the hands of priests, something that would happen with all the "pilgrimage" angle.

I want our clergy to remain as researchers, medics and mostly apolitical assassins as long as possible.


I be with this one if it didn't screw over all lactose intolerant people.

I don't want dominant, I want to keep it at leading at most, enough to stop the region practicing the Xoh's shit and secure our own religion from their influence.

I want security, not domination



Not really, we're polythiests.
When two polythiests centers are in competition/opposition, they try to make themselves indisputably better. Look at east Asia and classical antiquity, the compitition was fierce, but never war, since that deligitimises the whole thing.

War is only justified if the enemy is a heretic or heathen, in which case the compitition for pilgrimage doesn't exist since one side holy cites are the others blasphemy. And that kind of theology is at the very least a milinneia away, if it ever develops.

Things like Crusade are impossible without a clearly defined, well structured system of beliefs that holds fundemtal immutable values and truths that dictates the order of all things and the nature of morality. This is a level of theology that is flat out impossible to achieve without millenia of religious, theological and philosophical buildup, debate and fracture and compitition. Or flat out miracles. (this ofcourse applies to all ideologies, hence why orginized religion was so revolutionary, it was the first true ideology)
 
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[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] Defense
 
(though he reckoned we could rely on Gonwyllmyn to sort out econ problems if necessary)
That doesn't work AFAIK. The econ problems will be next turn. The hero will be dead by then. Defensive policy just means we get 4x Expand Economy for +12 econ next turn (+8 from province actions, +4 from Baby Boom)

Defensive policy is horrible given send aid. And we're sending aid almost certainly (47 to 4 right now) so we really shouldn't do it. It means nothing gets built and we lose The Law's free bonus for the turn.
Offense or no change would both work. No Change means that the Library finishes next turn. That'll be nice. It's also way ahead.

[x] [Library] Sacred Forest
[x] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[x] [Corruption] Deploy force
[x] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[x] [Policy] No change

Going for Pilgrimage due to the noted benefits of more people pilgrimaging to us, increasing idea flow.
Next turn we basically have to [Main] War Mission. Our other actions should probably include an Expand Economy to make sure we have a safe buffer. Our last action is free. I'm thinking we grab vineyards to try to dominate wine as well, putting us to +5 Diplo/turn.

@SpeckofStardust
You have double [Temple] and no [Diplo]. This is allowable, but your text does not suggest that that was intentional.

@zamin
Your analysis' votes are included in the tally. Please fix.
 
Not really, we're polythiests.
When two polythiests centers are in competition/opposition, they try to make themselves indisputably better. Look at east Asia and classical antiquity, the compitition was fierce, but never war, since that deligitimises the whole thing.

War is only justified if the enemy is a heretic or heathen, in which case the compitition for pilgrimage doesn't exist since one side holy cites are the others blasphemy. And that kind of theology is at the very least a milinneia away, if it ever develops.

Things like Crusade are impossible without a clearly defined, well structured system of beliefs that holds fundemtal immutable values and truths that dictates the order of all things and the nature of morality. This is a level of theology that is flat out impossible to achieve without millenia of religious, theological and philosophical buildup, debate and fracture and compitition. Or flat out miracles. (this ofcourse applies to all ideologies, hence why orginized religion was so revolutionary, it was the first true ideology)
Thanks maximillian for the other side of the viewpoint. Informative as always.
 
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
 
[:V] Discreetly send Blackbirds to assassinate the corrupt officials.
[:V] Discreetly send Blackbirds to assassinate the corrupt officials.
-[:V] And then blame it on the other poisoners

Also, we need to start making use of our Rage Against the Steppes legacy to occasionally purge the north

Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1975 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.9.1
[1] Geographic Administration

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Library
[49][Library] Sacred Forest
[18][Library] Valleyhome

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Temple
[42][Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[24][Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[1][Temple] Know that the gods are with us (+1 Stability)
[1][Temple] Repair damage (-1 progress)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Corruption
[52][Corruption] Deploy force
[6][Corruption] Main Enforce Justice
[2][Corruption] Burn occupational administration down (-2 Stability, switches to geographic admin within Valleyhome)
[1][Corruption] Burn Occupational Down

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Diplo
[51][Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[4][Diplo] Launch a Main War Mission - Northern Nomads

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Policy
[28][Policy] No change
[28][Policy] Defense
[2][Policy] Offense
[2][Policy] Defence

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Mission
[1][Mission] Support new friends (Main Salt Gift - modified returns)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: March
[1][March] Alter status (Transfer 2 Econ, changes status from March to Colony)
Total No. of Voters: 71
 
Not really, we're polythiests.
When two polythiests centers are in competition/opposition, they try to make themselves indisputably better. Look at east Asia and classical antiquity, the compitition was fierce, but never war, since that deligitimises the whole thing.

War is only justified if the enemy is a heretic or heathen, in which case the compitition for pilgrimage doesn't exist since one side holy cites are the others blasphemy. And that kind of theology is at the very least a milinneia away, if it ever develops.

Things like Crusade are impossible without a clearly defined, well structured system of beliefs that holds fundemtal immutable values and truths that dictates the order of all things and the nature of morality. This is a level of theology that is flat out impossible to achieve without millenia of religious, theological and philosophical buildup, debate and fracture and compitition. Or flat out miracles. (this ofcourse applies to all ideologies, hence why orginized religion was so revolutionary, it was the first true ideology)

The Spirit Talkers had a Sacred War honor value in the Neolithic.
 
Also, we need to start making use of our Rage Against the Steppes legacy to occasionally purge the north

Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads
I'm pretty sure we (or at least our Marches) have been doing that and the only reason we have to deal with this new nomad threat is because they were too far away to deal with earlier.
 
[X] [Library] Valleyhome
For administrative tech.
[X] [Temple] Know that the gods are with us (+1 Stability)
To buffer potential stability losses from Hathatyn immigration and:
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send delegations to the Metal Workers and Thunder Speakers (-2 Diplo)
I don't wanna send an army out into the steps, so ...
[] [Policy] Defense
... I am going with the defensive response to nomad threat.

Edit:
[X] [Policy] No change
Since we won't have enough Econ for walls next Turn.
 
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It was refreshing to write , I am kinda tired of writing about aristocracy and land, and theology is something I quite enjoy.
I'm pretty sure we (or at least our Marches) have been doing that and the only reason we have to deal with this new nomad threat is because they were too far away to deal with earlier.
This is a good point.

How do you explain this? Do note that AN has said they'd been around for several thousand years.
 
The Spirit Talkers had a Sacred War honor value in the Neolithic.


All acts of war and martial prowess please the war Gods/spirits, having a martial culture and divine exultation in the act of war, is common across history, it does not however equal ideological war, in the first case you war because it pleases your patron god, in the second you war because the enemy denies the truth.

And I wasn't being forgetful or dishonest, I honestly never even considered it. The difference was rather manifest.
 
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