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Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Policy] No change
 
Lailoken said:
I'm getting tired of this getting trotted out as if all choices are equal and therefore arbitrary. Some approaches are just plain inferior. Yes, it would have corruption. Notably more transparent and addressable forms which don't involve massive murder conspiracies sneaking under the admin hero's nose. Best of all, once addressed we'd be left with a vastly superior system which could be rolled out across the entire nation.
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Well take heart in the fact that I had in depth discussions with people I knew, did a lot of research and ended up picking occupational by the slim-est margin. I was literally asking that question not out of malice but because I was unsure about what you meant. Because it looked like you were saying it didn't have any corruption of it's own.
Thanks for answering.


ETA50M said:
But it's a set of problems that our administration would have a much easier time with.
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Actually I'm not sure about that. I seem to remember a statement by AN that our admin would not have the tools needed to deal with all the problems that come with geographical. Not that they do for occupational either mind. I'm still looking for that quote. Back in a bit.
 
Okay, analysis time.
Math is extra confusing due to Admin Hero turn, but managable for now.

Diplomacy 14 [+3]->7 [+4]
-Salt Gift -5
-Trading Post -5
-Salt +1
-Trade Dominance +2

Pretty predicted

Economy Economy 6 [-1]->4 [-1]
-City Tax -1
-Baby Boom +4
-Trade Post -2
-Colony Conversion -2
-Library -?
-Temple -1

Econ Expansion 5->7
-City Tax +1
-Baby Boom -4
-Trade Post +2
-Colony Conversion +2
-Library +?
-Temple +1

Very fiddly here, since we have two megaprojects with differential costs, but I think I got it.
This will be tight, we can probably assume a Blackbirds action taken to replenish the Martial while the provinces set to forting up better.

Martial 8 {10}->6 {8}
-Trading Post -2

Dropped a bit further. Going to want 2 points back for this fight, but no more.


Cultural
Art 12->9
-Temple/Library -4

There's an extra point somewhere here. Maybe I can find it sometime in the update.

Mysticism 13 [-1]->9 [-1+1]
-Library -4

Slightly confused order of events. But the Temple fixed the bleeding Mysticism.

Prestige 14->17
-Salt Gift +2
-Temple +1

I think this might be the modification.

Trade Status
Resource Status Rivals
Luxuries    
Fine Pottery Minor Xohyssiri
Fine Dye Dominating Hathatyn
Fine Textiles None Xohyssiri, Swamp Folk
Gold Minor trading Hathatyn, Metal Workers
Silver Leading Hath, MW, Xoh
Salt Dominating None
Wine Leading Hath
Strategic    
Copper Significant Hath, Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW
Bronze None Non-traded
Tin None MW (in), TH (in), Hath (in)
Iron Non-traded dominant None
Cultural    
Pilgrimage Moderate Thunder Speakers, Xoh
Changes:
-Fine Pottery - Same
-Fine Dye - Same
-Fine Textiles - Same
-Gold - None->Minor Trading - We have gold now, presumably the Trade Post let us borrow part of the Metal Worker's Gold production.
-Silver - Moderate->Leading - We have also gone to leading in silver by monopolizing the Metalworker trade. Not quite enough to Dominate yet though.
-Salt - Same
-Wine - Same
-Copper - Moderate -> Significant - Same as the other metals. Taken off the Metalworkers

We have gained a Cultural Trade good:
-Pilgrimage - None -> Moderate. But in competition with the Xohyssiri with their grand human sacrifices and the Thunder Speakers who inherited the Spirit Talkers' old pad.

Also indicates the Spirit Talkers might have had Center of Trade super early.
Of course, down this road means trade/religious conflict with the Thunder Speakers and Xohyssiri, since we'd have to race for Holy Site dominance, but it means spreading values as well.

Periphery States (3/3+2)
Stallion Tribes (March) - Eliminates raids from the north and mitigates raids from the east, can provide military advances and supports the Western Wall
Western Wall (Colony) - Expands to produce new provinces and find new resources, and can take be brought into wars to the north and west
Hatriver (March) - Eliminates raids from the south-east, can provide military advances
Greenshore Trading Post (Trading Post) - Increases trade power for all Metal Worker products, provides a market for an extra saltern
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So what we have here:
-March - Military advances, raid countering.
-Colony - Provincial Expansion and Resource discovery
-Trading Post - Steals Trade Power and boosts Salterns.

Noting that Greenshore Trading Post is somewhat exposed to hordes.

One of Each (Three): +1 Periphery State
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We're racking these up!
From indications, if we found 2 more Colonies or Trade Posts, we're going to get another of these.

Science
Ancestral Heroes
Polytheism
Astrology
Tested Observation
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Animism evolves to Polytheism. There is a greater order in the world than random spirits.

Grand Temple
A place for universal praise and worship of gods and spirits, the grand temple acts as a centre for the faithful and a training place for priests and shamans. Opens up new social concepts, alters actions, and provides +1 Mysticism a turn until either destroyed or rendered obsolete by more sophisticated theology
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This is pretty kickass for what it does, but we hadn't seen what actions it alters yet.

Not sure what sort of theology can obsolete it though.
Academia Nut said:
"The gods have shown their favour for our dedication to them and our acts of charity for all peoples. The test presented before us with this disaster at the temple is just that: a test. Should rains come and a hill collapse, is it the way of the People to say that we should not have built upon that hill, that the gods demand we abandon it, or that anyone swept away was a bad person? No, when the gods inflict such things upon us, it is their telling us 'Your work was incomplete, you must do better next time if you wish to farm here'. Thus I say that this was the gods telling us that it was not the idols they found offensive, but our work upon their meeting place that was unsightly in their eyes. Repair the damage and make it as it was, sans whatever defect lead to this collapse," Gonwyllmyn proclaimed, to the cautious nods of approval of the chiefs.
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Diplomacy Kings are pretty neat. He sold the concept we wanted sold.

And so the command goes out, and so the People seek to reorient themselves away from war in the north while keeping a wary eye on the situation in the south. Situations actually, although the People had grown somewhat numb to trade reports of fighting in the lowlands.
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"Oh look, the lowlands are on fire again."
"So, what's new?"
[X] Megaproject – Library
[X] Found Trading Post

Provinces – [Main] Megaproject x3

Stallions - [Main] Build Iron Mine, [Main] Sailing Mission – Northern Rivers
Western – [Main] New Settlement, [Main] Build Wall
Hatriver – [Main] Expand Warriors, [Sec] Expand Econ, [Sec] War Mission – Anti-Bandit
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Stallions have found an iron mine in their last survey, and exploited it. Which basically means their Economy is maxed out and they have a local source of iron weapons. Now they just need to hold it.

Western Wall are continuing further with the strategy of walled settlements, which is good.

Hatriver is getting their feet under them.

It was thus not entirely surprising when it came out that the Highlanders had shifted their posture from one of offense in the east to a dedicated defense while they sent the core of their warriors west, through mountain passes that had previously been too well defended to bother fighting over and now were manned only by bandits attempting to extract tribute from anyone trying to cross. While not entirely successful in their bids for conquest as they soon enough had to wheel back around to deal with increased pressure in the east, the Highlanders most certainly were able to force more than one city to capitulate to their control via being able to strangle what little food supplies they had control over. From what the People could tell from traders and refugees, the conflict had certainly been worth it as the Highlanders seized numerous mines and experts, and would undoubtedly be able to start producing their own bronze.
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Highlanders have Bronze as equalizers now, though they aren't grabbing the Hathatyn heartlands successfully. Might well provoke the Heroic Age to end early with a hostile-to-highlander Hero if it goes wrong though, but I suspect they have what they wanted here for wargoal: a source of Bronze.

Of course, for the People this was secondary to their own concerns, which were now growing increasingly mercantile as trade was better able to flow around the shores of the sea. In particular, the People felt that they would need better docking facilities on the far side of the sea at the mouth of the river that gave access to the Metal Workers, since while they had access to some metal the Metal Workers had a broader selection, deeper supply, and the exchange for the dye and salt of the People for silver and gold was quite favourable there. While obviously not all of the locals were entirely pleased with the idea of the People setting up buildings on their favourite fishing spot, the king ordered that anyone who had a problem was to be well compensated, and as per usual local food stores were to be established under the assumption that other groups from outside the People might seek aid in hard times.
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Meanwhile, trade posts as usual provoke some minor unrest, but we bribed the shit out of them.

...and apparently our Trade Posts are CA suction ports too.

Significantly closer to home, the king ordered that the shamans begin compiling together and writing down the stories and knowledge of the People, so that the wisdom of elders might not fade with their passing. Somewhat fortunately some had apparently already been doing that in defiance of convention, so the project was already partially begun!
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Extra progress roll!
There was however a big question as to where to put the collection of knowledge and wisdom, of which there were two choices: Valleyhome, as an aid for the king, and in the Sacred Forest, as an extension of the new temple.

Location of the Library?
[] [Library] Valleyhome
[] [Library] Sacred Forest
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We've gone over this before. Library linked to the Great Temple means a more purely intellectual process and generally apolitical records. Library linked to the capital would provide more knowledge support for Chiefs and Kings, but the library itself will be more vulnerable to political interests and historical revisionists.

And also riots, but we probably have that under control.
Noting that the library is not going to be open to the public either way, the records are too valuable and only 1% can read well enough to parse a book anyways.

I personally favor Sacred Forest to keep the lore neutral for as long as we can, since that's what we founded the Library for.

And what a temple! Gonwyllmyn was pleased to see its completion within his lifetime, having grown somewhat worried about the damage in decades prior. After repair the artisans had realized that it was a sign from Crow, in that they marked out the area of the ceiling that had been open to the sky and painted it as black as they could, a ragged puncture wound in a blue sky of stars from where Crow had emerged from the Dark Beyond Dark at the start of the universe. While there had been some initial grumbling that there weren't stars at the time, the shamans agreed with the artisans that it was a certainly evocative image, to have the full alien glory of Crow emerging from a wound in the heavens upon the ceiling.
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Well, you need stars to show what the blotch is...especially on the ceiling where fewer look at.

Also means some mythological drift down the line, since stars would have been before/concurrent with Crow after this minor artistic liberty.

The patched roof probably uses crossbeams to reinforce it?

The centrepiece however was the dual statue of Fythhagyna and Crow, which had taken generations of dozens of master artisans in collaboration with the wisest shamans to make right. Truly massive, the statue had Fythhagyna's knees come up to a man's chest, and while they had had to compromise for the sake of structure by having her in a seated position upon a gigantic stone carved to appear like the stump of a tree, the overall construction was still a marvel.
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So that's some 15-20ft tall statue? Big.

The king wasn't entirely certain how it had all been done, but the goddesses skin was of earthy clay glazed with wood ash and fired to a glossy, woody green.
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That's Lead Glazing, probably made with the Galena. Also it sounds like we made it in chunks then glued it together?

In one hand she held several stalks of wheat made from gilded wooden shafts, and in the other she held a tremendous sickle made from shining brass, the material imported at great expense from the Thunder Horse. Silvery teeth and eyes of gold and malachite smiled out enigmatically upon the world while hair like tangles of vines spilled down from her head to partially cover one breast and her groin, a compromise to the more prudish shamans.
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That is pretty bling. Not sure how they'd keep the teeth from tarnishing though.

And we have found compromise between nudity and not by covering her with vines.
And perched upon one shoulder was Crow in all of his terrible glory. Spider Eyed and weird, oversized even at the heroic scale of the statue, the multitude of eyes and beaks stared out enigmatically at all petitioners. Seemingly carved from a single piece of obsidian, the polish of the black stones very deliberately created odd reflections that made Crow seem to shift and flow as you moved around the statue, never seeming quite entirely there, as if the entirety of the statue could disappear if you blinked. In one beak Crow held one of the stalks of grain, the positioning of the statue very deliberately ambiguous as to whether Crow was taking the grain from Fythhagyna or placing the grain in her hands, a trio of Crow's eyes turned towards the goddess almost conspiratorially.

Despite knowing that the artisans had made numerous smaller pieces and then fit them together, Gonwyllmyn's eyes could find no trace of seam on any part of the overall statue, and he was fairly certain that it was not just eyesight failing as his hair went from silver to white.
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That is a LOT of obsidian, and shaping obsidian like that is crazy hard since it's glass and the slightest mistake is a do over for your portion.

Also means Crow's feathers are razor sharp if anyone pokes them.
And I like his Keikaku face.

Hiding the seams of the statue...we have mortar. Well, if we take the tech advance anyways.

As Gonwyllmyn was enjoying the temple, surrounded by idols personifying all of the greatest gods and spirits, he was somewhat alarmed to find a grey-bearded man of above average stature suddenly just walking beside him. Before he could protest the sudden intrusion into his space, the man leaned in and whispered, "I apologize, oh king, but I come to you with news of conspiracy most foul and fear for my life should my tale be told to the wrong ears. I pray to the gods that yours turn to the right, lest I be undone here and now."

Freezing, the king replied in a hushed tone, "Do then explain what you know quickly."

"I am a shaman who has worn many masks in life, and thus learned many things. I chose my retirement to help the sick in Valleyhome, but I know the signs of poisoning when I see them. I have spent the past year tracking down a conspiracy of murder and corruption, all with the intent of defying specifically your laws," the man explained.

The king was quiet for a moment and then said, "Go on."
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This guy did a good work. In Crow's shadow, he speaks what the crows see.

"Your laws against the practices of splitting and lumping? Several of the leaders who preferred lumping decided to take matters into their own hands, and have been brutalizing others to get their way. Those within their own occupations who might pioneer new occupations are sidelined, marginalized, and ridiculed. Those outside their purview who might do the same for rival factions are poisoned with metals, their minds robbed from them, or if need be are more quickly disposed of via 'random' acts of violence. They spread creepers all throughout Valleyhome and have been progressively strangling out those in positions of power who think differently from them. And yes, of course I can direct your agents towards all the evidence I found to piece this frankly ridiculous story together," the man explained.
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The Lumpers have been cheating to try to form megaguilds.
Marginalizing is a pain, but expected. The poisonings and assassinations...need to be put an end to, and an example made.

Two moons later and he was quietly drawing up what do about the conspiratorial cabals that had been quietly unearthed. He needed to dig out the social blight that can been festering among the roots of society in Valleyhome, but he also needed to be careful. The men behind this had enough power that if he did not act just right he could do just as much damage removing them as they were currently inflicting upon the People. He had enough evidence that he could use the dagger of the warriors and Blackbirds to cut them out, but he might also miss some and the king calling for the mass execution of occupational chiefs might send the wrong message and cause a panic.
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Restore Order: Heroic Admin handling it to make a big example, but has some risks if he botches the Admin roll to catch them all and the Diplomacy roll to spin it right.

Fortunately he's heroic in both and cannot critfail, so the worst case is annoying more than dangerous.

More bluntly, he could simply increase the enforcement of law in general and force more cases to be brought before his review rather than lower level chiefs and thus begin dismantling the conspiracy without the mass deployment of warriors... but while he knew that he could handle the workload, could his successors? He would be setting a potent precedent.
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Enforce Justice: Up the Centralization, but he specifically highlights that this is not something a non-heroic king can handle without imploding from overwork.

Then there was the weapon of fire, of burning out the entire system that had allowed this corruption to settle in, sweeping away the current administration within Valleyhome. He could ensure he stripped the conspirators of their power and the incentives that had them act this way... at the cost of confusing and infuriating tens of thousands of people.
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And there's setting it all on fire and changing to a new form of corruption we don't have the tools to mitigate.

While still finalizing his plans for dealing within the sickness within his own home, Gonwyllmyn had three important missives arrive in relatively short order. The first was a message from the trading post on Greenshore, sending word that something catastrophic had happened to the Metal Workers and they had somehow opened a doorway to the Underworld. One of their important valleys was now apparently choked in poisonous yellow smoke, fire shooting from the earth as sinkholes opened up. While not their only valley, it was an important enough internal trade route that even if the disaster just sat there and did not spread it threatened to shatter the power of the king there, leading to fighting and conflict... and that was only if the demons unleashed were content to stay in that valley!
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Pros: They found a coal seam
Cons: They set it on fire

Not much can be done about it, short of redirecting the river into the mine, which would be difficult.

The king was getting the clerks to figure out a relief mission when the next important missive arrived for him. The traders had been told that for trade with the Thunder Horse, they could now go to Xohyr directly, the higher nobility and royal family having decided to move to the city due to familial relations and it being more centrally located for the administration of their territory and prosecution of the conflicts with the Highlanders. They were also pleased to announce that after a stunning series of successes, the Swamp Folk were now the vassals of the Thunder Horse.

Xohyssiri Golden Age ends
Xohyssiri now Leading Member in Personal Union with the Thunder Horse
You may now address the general over-polity as the Xohyssiri Empire if you wish
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And the Thunder Horse just realized that they had swallowed a chestburster as the Xohyssiri exploded out of their stomach.

Didn't someone proclaim the Xohyssiri dead a few turns ago?
The king's eyes crossed as his imagination filled in what might come from the fighting in the lowlands with the centre of three significant powers now at Xohyr, versus the Highlanders now equipped with bronze weapons to match the Thunder Horse and reinforced with Hathatyn wealth and surrendered warriors... the rivers of the south would turn black with blood in the sun.
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And NOW the Xohyssiri Empire ARE in position to grab and hold the Lowlands, since they are no longer so overstretched anymore.

Granted the last time we said that the whole thing imploded within 5 generations too. We'll see.

And then, just when it sounded like things could get no worse, the explorers from the Stallions sent north had returned early, unable to penetrate as far as they wanted due to hostile forces, and their stories confirmed by runners from Paltrulvi's tribes that a new chief had arisen in the far north, the descendant of a tribe driven off in generations past. With an ancestral grudge against 'the southerners' and promising the tribes under him that there was tremendous loot to be had in rapine pillage of the south, as well as the settling of grudges with the weak tribes of the east, this sounded like it was going to be like the wars of legend from centuries past, a storm of horseflesh thundering down from the north.
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Okay, looks like new horde is forming with the following wargoals:
-Burn and loot all the settled people to the south.
--Metal Worker - Fucked unless we put their fire out for them.
--Ymaryn - Probably okay, but annoying and expensive.
--Thunder Speakers - Fucked unless Xohyssiri/Thunder Horse intervenes due to their crippled military.
--Thunder Horse - Probably fine, but will draw resources away from the Lowland Clusterfuck.
-Destroy the Eastern Nomads

Fortunately we've reinforced the Eastern Nomads, so they won't be beaten down and absorbed in the horde, and we've murdered the Western Nomads, so they can't join the horde.

As long as the Metal Workers remain standing this shouldn't snowball onto us, if they decide that breaking through the Thunder Horse is more practical.
 
We were aware of the inevitable corruption issues with choosing occupational administration.

Going around and pretending that Geographic doesn't bring in it's own corruption problems is ridiculous. Not to mention the rampant confirmation bias with the comparisons going on.

Switching to geographic is incredibly expensive anyways right now and not an option.
 
BungieONI said:
Well take heart in the fact that I had in depth discussions with people I knew, did a lot of research and ended up picking occupational by the slim-est margin. I was literally asking that question not out of malice but because I was unsure about what you meant. Because it looked like you were saying it didn't have any corruption of it's own.
Thanks for answering.



Actually I'm not sure about that. I seem to remember a statement by AN that our admin would not have the tools needed to deal with all the problems that come with geographical. Not that they do for occupational either mind. I'm still looking for that quote. Back in a bit.
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Apologies on the tone. I'm going to go take a walk.
 
Lailoken said:
Y'all realize that cracking down on the lumpers now means that the splitters will be left unchecked next turn just as the diplo-admin hero who couldn't even keep a lid on this mess is replaced by an average schlub, right?
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As long as we dont crit fail on an unrelated innovation roll after failing it the previous turn making academia nut decide to use corruption as the IC excuse i think we'll be fine.
 
What's really annoying about the "Oh this would never have happened with Geographical Administration!" bullshit is that Academia Nut specifically said why this happened:
Academia Nut said:
So... regarding the rolls.

For your Innovation challenge you rolled a 6 last turn and a 1 this turn, when you've been on the cusp of a discovery for quite some time, so I decided that this indicated active suppression of innovation.

You also rolled doubles twice for mysticism related things, so I decided that it was a shaman who uncovered the conspiracy. In this instance a medical shaman who was once a Blackbird who enjoyed the mystical aspects so much he transferred over to Carrion Eater training before retiring to an inner city hospice.

He may be named Mordin.
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It's a handy explanation for bad rolls that were completely independent of what we picked for administration. So either people didn't bother to read that post, or they're being deliberately dishonest in their arguments. End of fucking story.
 
Cracking down on the lumpers will also send a message to the splitters.
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Jun 8, 2017 at 2:59 AM, finished with 49639 posts and 64 votes.
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[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
 
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@McLuvin might want to enter into the Ziggurat faction now, because that thing WILL make us dominant on the pilgrimage front.
Xoh: I made a wall of bones!
Ymaryn: I made a mountain!
Haty: *eating clay*
 
Malevolo said:
@McLuvin might want to enter into the Ziggurat faction now, because that thing WILL make us dominant on the pilgrimage front.
Xoh: I made a wall of bones!
Ymaryn: I made a mountain!
Haty: *eating clay*
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Games you mean, a sacred forest, with a great temple and a great library, and is the location for the great games.

Holy hell, the possibilities are endless! Its like a crossbreed of Rome, alexandria and olympia
 
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Aha!

So specifically for the g-word here is AN's verdict.

Academia Nut said:
It's complicated enough that it would take a while to be figured out, and no, there really isn't a solution at this level of development.
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As to the rest of Geographical and how it interacts with our admin and it's ease of performance. *shrug* I don't have a real opinion.



Malevolo said:
@McLuvin might want to enter into the Ziggurat faction now, because that thing WILL make us dominant on the pilgrimage front.
Xoh: I made a wall of bones!
Ymaryn: I made a mountain!
Haty: *eating clay*
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Everyone, Staring at our Mountain:


Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 8, 2017 at 3:12 AM, finished with 49646 posts and 65 votes.
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Malevolo said:
@McLuvin might want to enter into the Ziggurat faction now, because that thing WILL make us dominant on the pilgrimage front.
Xoh: I made a wall of bones!
Ymaryn: I made a mountain!
Haty: *eating clay*
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I just don't want our people being converted to the Xoh Empires bullshit religion, which is possible if they gain a strong enough pilgrimage advantage. If we are not careful we could end up seeing their gods becoming more dominant in the region.
 
McLuvin said:
I just don't want our people being converted to the Xoh Empires bullshit religion, which is possible if they gain a strong enough pilgrimage advantage. If we are not careful we could end up seeing their gods becoming more dominant in the region.
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Let the Religious Meme Wars...


Begin!
 
Guys do you people really want the entirety of the lowlands to become child killing slavers rather than be more like us? Plus remember if the lowlands ever unite we are on the chopping block
Adhoc vote count started by Reader of all on Jun 8, 2017 at 3:17 AM, finished with 49649 posts and 65 votes.
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[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] Defense
 
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