10 to 50 times the price of water transportation,or something like that.
We know it.
But, well, without bigger ships good luck making longer travels.


Also, it's funny that you mentioned China: their ships became mostly smaller junks only later, in about 16th century, when they entered internal focus and stagnation-ish.

Before that, they were the textbook example of focus on big ships and they, not Mediterraneans, are example of what size-focus entails.

Completely coincidenally, after switching fleet focus to smaller riverships China has stopped big external sailing missions. Surprisingly, riverships are not as good at seasailing as seaships.
The Chinese still had the complicated network of canals and river trade before then. Yes, the Chinese had fucking huge ships for connecting the the complex web of the Indian Ocean trading network, with its extensive ports that were supplied by all the nations connected to that system.

Which is, you know, everything the Early Bronze Age lacks.

Nobody has good transportation networks in place, meaning that the price for everything grows dramatically the further away from the production site you travel, which means to get a good price you need to get as close as possible to where it's produced.

Oh, and by the way? Those "longer travels"? Yeah, they're not even really a thing for the bigger ships of this period, because their navigation sucks too much to go far away from the coast! For most of history, trade hopped along the coasts with ships stopping on the coast every night for the crews to rest, with this only changing in the past thousand years or so.
 
Once we finish the dam we should start on walling all our settlements having a well defended core region will ensure that even if we wind up losing a war we are too costly to conquer rather than vassalise.​
 
Once we finish the dam we should start on walling all our settlements having a well defended core region will ensure that even if we wind up losing a war we are too costly to conquer rather than vassalise.​

For a couple hundred years (10 to 20 turns) at least till some one comes up with siege tech. Even then though we'd be a tough nut to crack I agree.
 
Building bigger ships aren't really effective right now, because only 1 of our provinces have docks. This means we can't actually receive the huge ass boats...and neither can our neighbors.

Also, we don't really have long sea voyages...the only large body of water available to us is an inland sea.
 
The Chinese still had the complicated network of canals and river trade before then. Yes, the Chinese had fucking huge ships for connecting the the complex web of the Indian Ocean trading network, with its extensive ports that were supplied by all the nations connected to that system.

Which is, you know, everything the Early Bronze Age lacks.

Nobody has good transportation networks in place, meaning that the price for everything grows dramatically the further away from the production site you travel, which means to get a good price you need to get as close as possible to where it's produced.

Oh, and by the way? Those "longer travels"? Yeah, they're not even really a thing for the bigger ships of this period, because their navigation sucks too much to go far away from the coast! For most of history, trade hopped along the coasts with ships stopping on the coast every night for the crews to rest, with this only changing in the past thousand years or so.
1. China had multiple large rivers, we don't
2. We have an inland sea not an open ocean
3. By having big ships we can (hopefully) cause our subjects to build docks to help increase our overall naval influence.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
A further note?
Size would increase bulk transport between sites where there was either a dock or a suitable place to safely beach the boat (this requires a relatively hefty tide - come in at high tide, anchor, let the tide go out enough that you settle and can thus move things about easily enough, then let the time come back in when you want to disembark). Big would be bigger than the relatively small sailboats currently using, but you wouldn't entirely need a dock network to get use out of them. Just the most use out of them.
This right here means that size will basically limit our ships to coastal estuaries or docks. Once you get up the river, there are no tides to do this.

Oh, and the idea of using it to send bulk foodstuffs? Yeah, that's only helpful for places where you can dock them, because in order to haul it inland you need to feed the animals pulling them. A cart pulled by a pair of oxen could carry about 1,200 pounds of grain, travel about 30 miles across very good terrain in three days, and eat half the load on the trip there and back.
1. China had multiple large rivers, we don't
2. We have an inland sea not an open ocean
3. By having big ships we can (hopefully) cause our subjects to build docks to help increase our overall naval influence.
1. There are a bunch of river systems that have been stated to exist, that are not drawn on that map.
2.
That is completely irrelevant.
3. That's also completely irrelevant, because the bigger ships won't be able to get as much trade advantage with anyone else, since we won't be able to get anywhere near as close to the production or destination sites for any of our trade.

Seriously, you ignored basically everything in my post except "Oh, China was mentioned!"
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Jun 4, 2017 at 3:10 AM, finished with 47282 posts and 90 votes.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
This isn't going to be relevant for several turns, but I want to bring back the argument about where to build our next Aqueduct. These are our options:
Redshore (0/8), Lower Valleyhome (0/4), Stonepen (0/6), Blackmouth (0/8), Sacred Forest (0/4), Redhills (0/6)

I think that we should go with Sacred Forest. It and Lower Valleyhome are by far the cheapest (requiring only a single [Main] action to complete) and it combos very nicely with the Grand Temple+Library that we're planning on building there. That would lead to a city of learning and study, somewhere for ideas to freely flow and research to be done. There is some question as to its environmental impact, but we manage our Sacred Forest well so that's almost certainly not going to happen. We would get a city among the trees, especially if we never wall it.

The alternative is Redshore. That's more expensive but it helps us achieve naval dominance, which would be very useful. It also balances the power better, since people might get annoyed at how Valleyhome and Sacred Forest seem to get all the benefits.
 
The Chinese still had the complicated network of canals and river trade before then. Yes, the Chinese had fucking huge ships for connecting the the complex web of the Indian Ocean trading network, with its extensive ports that were supplied by all the nations connected to that system.

Which is, you know, everything the Early Bronze Age lacks.

Nobody has good transportation networks in place, meaning that the price for everything grows dramatically the further away from the production site you travel, which means to get a good price you need to get as close as possible to where it's produced.

Oh, and by the way? Those "longer travels"? Yeah, they're not even really a thing for the bigger ships of this period, because their navigation sucks too much to go far away from the coast! For most of history, trade hopped along the coasts with ships stopping on the coast every night for the crews to rest, with this only changing in the past thousand years or so.

This is not a refute to Chinese, not Mediterranean, fleet being a proper example of size focus.
More, Chinese ships *from the start* focused on size, and it worked out quite well, despite them having a good river system.

And about a system of docks to support the ships: without the bigger ships there will be less incentive to build docks which use them. Having focus on riverships will incentivise both us and IC ship- and dockbuilders to focus on riverstuff, driving us more internally focused - and Ymaryn are internally focused as is.
Without big ships proving worth of such things people won't care about expanding in that direction. Again, case in point China using big ships while externally active and riverships while internally focused, and, as counterexample, Portugal, which, due to lack of local expansion land, went for bigger ships(!) and overseas stuff.

This right here means that size will basically limit our ships to coastal estuaries or docks. Once you get up the river, there are no tides to do this.

Oh, and the idea of using it to send bulk foodstuffs? Yeah, that's only helpful for places where you can dock them, because in order to haul it inland you need to feed the animals pulling them. A cart pulled by a pair of oxen could carry about 1,200 pounds of grain, travel about 30 miles across very good terrain in three days, and eat half the load on the trip there and back.

Yes, it means that seafaring ships are going to be limited to either estuaries, coastal cities or *docks* within cities on big enough rivers - or just coastals maybe.
From where they can be transported by smaller ships via rivers.
Why do you assume our folks will magically forget how to build small ships? Portability is about allowing to transport ships on hands, not them being the one and only riverboat option.

Thimg is...okay, this calls for a question.

@Academia Nut , will our people keep building smaller riverboats if the bigger ships, which are restricted to the coast, are chosen?
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

Seems as if portability would help us more without the limitations that come with choosing size. WOG states without another deep docks on the other side to land on our bigger ships will have trouble so it's a suboptimal option at this moment.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift

Switching to Salt gift to see if we can double down on generosity.
 
Seems as if portability would help us more without the limitations that come with choosing size. WOG states without another deep docks on the other side to land on our bigger ships will have trouble so it's a suboptimal option at this moment.

If that was so bad, carracks would not ne able to disembark at new lands.
As per WoG, bigger ships require tide to disembark without docks and indeed would prefer those, but can work well enough without.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Snail Cultivation
 
We don't trade bulk goods, we trade luxuries, which depend more on speed to make profit.
That being said, having bigger boats is a necessary step on the way to changing that fact.

larger boats tend to be slower and therefore easier to catch and raid. They are probably r more resistant to storms they're caught in, though fast ones are more able to outrun storms.
While yes, faster boats are better at starting fights they want to have and fleeing fights they don't, once a fight has started the bigger boat has a strong advantage. A bigger boat has a bigger fighting component, for one, and secondly, height is a huge advantage. Having the boat's decks higher above the water than one's opponent allows for longer range bowshots at first, and then once boats close it allows directly aimed plunging shots down into the other boat. For melee fighters, again the taller boat has a strong advantage. If you've familiar with old ship pictures, the raised portions at the front and back of ships was done in an attempt to enhance these effects.

An additional bonus, one can sail longer distances with a bigger boat. For one, all navigation in this time is done by following coasts. As such, boats always stayed within sight distance of shore. A bigger boat allows for a higher vantage point (such as the late sailing era's crow's nests) which allows the boat to get further away from shore while still being able to see it. Plus, a bigger hold allows for longer journeys due to being able to carry more supplies, like food, water, and spare boat parts.

Wonder what happened. Maybe a Pompei situation? Volcano wipes out an area, everyone else is fucked by proximity?
One possibility is that environmental problems caused a cascading raiding problem. It reminds me of the bronze age collapse articles someone linked to a few dozen pages back. One speculation I saw was that once one polity collapsed, they began to raid their neighbors in large quantities, pushing them out as a wave of refugees and raiders hitting their neighbors, which collapsed the next ring of nations, and so on.


Speed + Portable = Viking Longboats for raiding
Speed + Size = Classic ocean dominance.

We want them all, it's just comparing which is more valuable right now or later.
All that argueing above aside, I agree here. We do need all of these, eventually. Overall, I think the best long term goal is to aim towards is 8 size, 4 speed, and 2 portability. We can turn the NotBlackSea into Our Lake, and the highway of our civilization.


1. China had multiple large rivers, we don't
2. We have an inland sea not an open ocean
3. By having big ships we can (hopefully) cause our subjects to build docks to help increase our overall naval influence.
Our inland sea is still massively enormous compared to our ability to navigate it. you can reach dozens of times as much land as our local river networks control.

As an additional note, I'd like to push Size first because that will further incentivize additional dock construction, speeding up boat technology development.

Also, re-voting to add a law decision:

[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

People have convinced me to risk the hard choice with our hero to try to navigate us through it.
 
And about a system of docks to support the ships: without the bigger ships there will be less incentive to build docks which use them. Having focus on riverships will incentivise both us and IC ship- and dockbuilders to focus on riverstuff, driving us more internally focused - and Ymaryn are internally focused as is.
What the fuck are you even smoking? More portable ships will improve our ability to trade with others, because it will mean that our ships can go deeper along tributary rivers to get closer to the various production sites.

For fuck's sake, Academia Nut even said that it would improve our ability to explore deeper into other territories!
 
Does incentivizing building docks for our provinces actually matter? We can build them ourselves....it's not like us taking portability will prevent us from build docks.
 
This isn't going to be relevant for several turns, but I want to bring back the argument about where to build our next Aqueduct. These are our options:
Redshore (0/8), Lower Valleyhome (0/4), Stonepen (0/6), Blackmouth (0/8), Sacred Forest (0/4), Redhills (0/6)

I think that we should go with Sacred Forest. It and Lower Valleyhome are by far the cheapest (requiring only a single [Main] action to complete) and it combos very nicely with the Grand Temple+Library that we're planning on building there. That would lead to a city of learning and study, somewhere for ideas to freely flow and research to be done. There is some question as to its environmental impact, but we manage our Sacred Forest well so that's almost certainly not going to happen. We would get a city among the trees, especially if we never wall it.

The alternative is Redshore. That's more expensive but it helps us achieve naval dominance, which would be very useful. It also balances the power better, since people might get annoyed at how Valleyhome and Sacred Forest seem to get all the benefits.
Hmmm...


I think that for me it depends on what is best for us to do after Gon gets done with his run. Trade is looking really powerful right now so I'm inclined to Redshore for that reason. I like the City of learning Idea though, especially since it has been brushed upon a couple of times and the discussion around it has been promising.
Another potential reason to pick it is that with Sacred Forest being our third largest city (I think) it will take longer to become a True City. I figure this is an advantage because it prepares us to tech up and get some practice handling Valleyhome before it grows up. Redshore would have some lead time, but not as much and might cramp our system a little too quickly.

Also, not too sure on the people getting annoyed by Sacred Forest any time soon. That's a recent development and it's still really small in comparison to Redshore. From my understanding it's more of a problem with Redshore. But I like the thought anyway.

We could also go to Stonepen if we want to give more prominence to the North. They haven't been as badly neglected in recent turns as they were previously, but it would provide a counterweight. It helps more in Stonepen if we end up building PttS up there. Makes it a second focus of learning, this one specialized on the very esoteric (from the layman Ymaryn's perspective).


If we want to up our mining production by getting more people into the area I would say Redhills. Is Bleeding Cliff in Northshore or Redshore? If it's in Redshore that's another good reason to put it there. As an additional, by putting Redhill on the path to True City we also massively increase the population there, which is another guard against the Lowlands.
 
What the fuck are you even smoking? More portable ships will improve our ability to trade with others, because it will mean that our ships can go deeper along tributary rivers to get closer to the various production sites.

For fuck's sake, Academia Nut even said that it would improve our ability to explore deeper into other territories!

We do not need to explore deeper into others territories as much as we need to explore the coasts.
Why would we actually need to explore the inner lands of others and why would they allow us passage?

And you still have not conceded explicitly that Chinese were, first, way better example of size-focused ships than Mediterraneans that you somehow tried to shoehorn into the debate, and second, that it worked out pretty well for them. Do you have some other argument on this topic?

Does incentivizing building docks for our provinces actually matter? We can build them ourselves....it's not like us taking portability will prevent us from build docks.

We can. Will we? Looking at out build list of wonders, I am not sure.
Besides, we do not control marches, colonies and trading posts, so even if we were willing to build docks there, we would not be able to.
And those three types are the most distant ones, which will need such thing - and bigger boats - the most.
 
We do not need to explore deeper into others territories as much as we need to explore the coasts.
Why would we actually need to explore the inner lands of others and why would they allow us passage?
I think that is mostly an example. The main thrust of the point I think is that Portability will help us mitigate some of the hidden/not directly obvious effects of our marginal Trails status (See inefficient Support Subordinate action)

E: Size will too in a different way.
 
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If that was so bad, carracks would not ne able to disembark at new lands.
As per WoG, bigger ships require tide to disembark without docks and indeed would prefer those, but can work well enough without.
Portability is still helpful for our internal trade and helping us reach deeper into the Haythyn territory hence why I called size a suboptimal decision. Let's get our internal trade networks booming to help counter our shitty roads and make it easier to subjugate the Haythn.
 
Tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Jun 4, 2017 at 3:43 AM, finished with 47301 posts and 92 votes.
 
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