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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

This is a fantastic opportunity for us- Not!Anatolia is fertile hilly terrain that's practically made for us. Combine that with the Hats having a tradition of mostly following the largest city state there's a precedent for them to fall in line if we break the city of Hathaya directly. Combine that with heroic diplo and this is the chance to really gain some ground and establish us as an empire in our own right.

As for boats- I'd most like to grab portability next so we can combine portability+size to make river barges a thing. Relatively simple, can travel up and down rivers and meaningfully haul cargo and people.

Something like longboats are much more useful in decentralized raiding cultures with relatively massive stretches of coastline- in other words, about as far opposite us you can get.
 
[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
Karugus said:
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

This is a fantastic opportunity for us- Not!Anatolia is fertile hilly terrain that's practically made for us. Combine that with the Hats having a tradition of mostly following the largest city state there's a precedent for them to fall in line if we break the city of Hathaya directly. Combine that with heroic diplo and this is the chance to really gain some ground and establish us as an empire in our own right.

As for boats- I'd most like to grab portability next so we can combine portability+size to make river barges a thing. Relatively simple, can travel up and down rivers and meaningfully haul cargo and people.

Something like longboats are much more useful in decentralized raiding cultures with relatively massive stretches of coastline- in other words, about as far opposite us you can get.
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Frankly the idea that's been floated that by eating 8 to 10 Econ worth of people might mean we don't even have to fight them at all as they fall apart appeals to me.

I'd much rather defeat a potential enemy without actually fighting them. Means we gain more in the long run.

Though if war happens? Well it happens and we can deal with it quickly.
 
Karugus said:
Something like longboats are much more useful in decentralized raiding cultures with relatively massive stretches of coastline- in other words, about as far opposite us you can get.
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Or for people who are trading far up rivers because the local overland transportation grid is complete shit.

Oh wait, that describes basically everyone we trade with, including ourselves.

EDIT: Seriously, the "viking longboats" people keep talking about as though they were only for raiding were primarily merchant ships where the merchants would turn to raiding if they found a soft and rich target.
 
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If the Hathatyn collapse when we're trying to eat their territory, the HK might try and make a move. Sure, they probably won't commit hard because of their war, but our relations right now are sour...so they'll likely kick up a fuss anyways.

There's also the Hathatyn's neighbors to worry about....
 
The thing I'm most sad about is that eating the Hathatyn doesn't say it will create a new province, likely it will just expand Southshore's influence. Would be nice to gain a new province out of this.
 
hylas240 said:
There are no stated stability hits/downsides to leaving a saltern unfinished for a turn or 2. Though it's likely to start falling apart after the 2nd turn.
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Just because the People would not be punished for leaving a job half finished does not mean they would leave a job half finished if they could at all help it. I suspect one of the provinces would finish it up at the very least. Half finishing small projects just to burn points is never going to work out well.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
 
Godwinson said:
Or for people who are trading far up rivers because the local overland transportation grid is complete shit.

Oh wait, that describes basically everyone we trade with, including ourselves.

EDIT: Seriously, the "viking longboats" people keep talking about as though they were only for raiding were primarily merchant ships where the merchants would turn to raiding if they found a soft and rich target.
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Man, it's almost like I recognized the need for riverine communications and shipping in that exact fucking post.

The problem is longboats are bad cargo ships that made up for being bad cargo ships by being easy to produce (not an issue), capable of riverine trade and ocean going (we can afford to switch boats at our docks), and decent raiding boats in addition.

If you want to crawl up any river available- than long boats are useful, but that's not what we need. We don't need a multi-use platform and can afford dedicated sea ships and river boats.

We're far more centralized and liable to have major ship building infrastructure than the Vikings were. The fact you're utterly rejecting alternatives and fundamentally ignoring cultural pressures in terms of ship design just does your argument disservice
 
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Karugus said:
Man, it's almost like I recognized the need for riverine communications and shipping in that exact fucking post.

The problem is longboats are bad cargo ships that made up for being bad cargo ships by being easy to produce (not an issue), capable of riverine trade and ocean going (we can afford to switch boats at our docks), and decent raiding boats in addition.

If you want to crawl up any river available- than long boats are useful, but that's not what we need. We don't need a multi-use platform and can afford dedicated sea ships and river boats.

We're far more centralized and liable to have major ship building infrastructure than the Vikings were.
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It's longship, not longboat, and I am very interested in exploring and finding new cultures to steal tech from.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

The bandwagon seems like a bad idea to me. Relevent WoG:
Academia Nut said:
Simplest? Lumping, definitely lumping. Least likely to cause problems? Hmmm... close off both practices, although that is probably the most complex, most likely to cause short term problems, and may have the possibility of straight up not working.
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This was stated as the view of our admin hero, so his bonuses should already be figured into his assessment.

The band wagon [CA] vote leaves us at 0.5 stab, average. No chance of greater good reduction since we don't have it. Along with that, we're picking the most complex system (yet again). That's probably at least -1 stab (as I'm pretty sure it has been each time we grabbed the hard admin choice).

That leaves us at -0.5 stab average.

Our +stab actions mostly suck, since again, we don't have Greater Good. So we're decently likely to have to blow multiple main actions on proclaim glory and secondaries on festivals.

I think we should either go for annex or max complexity. Not both.
 
Fun interpretation time!

We burn down our forests occasionally to keep the land healthy, yes? Once we hear about the volcano it will clearly be interpreted as Fythhagyna doing the same on a goddess like level. Thus our nature goddess will extend her purview to volcanoes!
 
pblur said:
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

The bandwagon seems like a bad idea to me. Relevent WoG:

This was stated as the view of our admin hero, so his bonuses should already be figured into his assessment.

The band wagon [CA] vote leaves us at 0.5 stab, average. No chance of greater good reduction since we don't have it. Along with that, we're picking the most complex system (yet again). That's probably at least -1 stab (as I'm pretty sure it has been each time we grabbed the hard admin choice).

That leaves us at -0.5 stab average.

Our +stab actions mostly suck, since again, we don't have Greater Good. So we're decently likely to have to blow multiple main actions on proclaim glory and secondaries on festivals.

I think we should either go for annex or max complexity. Not both.
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It's like we don't learn from our lesson.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
Seriously. Everybody else is battered and exhausted. If our Diplo/Admin hero sweeps in with massive gifts of salt just as he expands his faction's long-established tradition of adoption out of humanitarian aid on an enormous scale in the face of unprecedented natural catastrophe the synergy will be enormous.

"These people are notoriously wealthy and benevolent as all get-out? They've already got large swaths of territory flocking to them and recovering impressively under their aid and genius admin? They're looking for harmonious partners even among those who don't want to join outright? They're on the edge of a hell of a golden age and are happy to bring everybody else along with then? Their unassailable trade empire has legendarily large cargo ships rolling off the docks? They have a massive, MASSIVE army they quite pointedly aren't doing anything with (yet)? Even the Nomads are terrified of them? The alternative are the distant, fractious Thunder Horse who haven't even mastered star-metal yet despite being mystically defined by it?

Sign me up!"​

Our sphere of influence and trade empire could more than triple overnight if we take all the synergistic choices simultaneously. If the Thunder Horses don't like it, well we need to burn some military anyway. Let's flip the Raiders, Thunder Speakers, and Dead Priests into our sphere on one fell swoop just as the volcano god kills us all!
 
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I return to vote! Also to skim through far too much discussion with far too many people forgetting that stat caps exist...
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

DragonParadox said:
Er.. what? The Hath are territoriality larger than us. They are just breaking apart from their own mismanagement.
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Therealtahu said:
They've just claimed to be large. We have no proof this is actually the case.
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Therealtahu said:
They have much better land than ours but they have issues competing with us in trade. We also don't completely believe their claims of territory.
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I'm still pretty sure that line was about us. That is, it was us telling the Hath about the land the Western Wall occupies and them going "no fucking way they actually are that big, we can barely get tribute out of villages half as far away fromour capital as that would be from theirs". @Academia Nut can you confirm/deny?


(Wonder Woman is a great movie btw :p)
 
bluefur87 said:
Fun interpretation time!

We burn down our forests occasionally to keep the land healthy, yes? Once we hear about the volcano it will clearly be interpreted as Fythhagyna doing the same on a goddess like level. Thus our nature goddess will extend her purview to volcanoes!
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Perfect timing.

 
If we hit -1 stability then we can just use RoO, not to mention us snagging these villages will probably lower our centralization....which means we can use a [secondary] Enforce Justice to give us more stability too.

Our settlements are 85% walled, so it's likely that we get 1 centralization (maybe 2). Either way, it won't hurt our ability to build trails overmuch.
 
hylas240 said:
If we hit -1 stability then we can just use RoO, not to mention us snagging these villages will probably lower our centralization....which means we can use a [secondary] Enforce Justice to give us more stability too.

Our settlements are 85% walled, so it's likely that we get 1 centralization (maybe 2). Either way, it won't hurt our ability to build trails overmuch.
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The amount walled may decrease, not sure how walled in these settlements we're taking in are. I'd also prefer to not increase centralization with enforce justice if at all possible.

Still, even though I'd prefer the assured golden age, I won't act like this vote will destroy us or doesn't have its appeal. I do hope, however, that our admin hero takes over the following turns because I really still do not want to deal with this fall out.
 
Lailoken keeps being a voice of reason.

[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
bluefur87 said:
The amount walled may decrease, not sure how walled in these settlements we're taking in are. I'd also prefer to not increase centralization with enforce justice if at all possible.

Still, even though I'd prefer the assured golden age, I won't act like this vote will destroy us or doesn't have its appeal. I do hope, however, that our admin hero takes over the following turns because I really still do not want to deal with this fall out.
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Well these are coastal villages mainly so they are gonna at most be walled from the landward directions. Which is irrelevant since we would be coming from the sea. I figure 2 Centralization is a good amount to gain from Enforce Justice after we absorb these villages. Their size (near a province really from what I can see) means we are gonna be dropping Cent by 1 or 2 most likely. In the case it is only 1 Cent we lose, we can push to 5 Cent with an EJ, if it's 2 we go back to four. Either way we have means and space to make more New Trails. Probably to Blackriver and the West Wall.
 
Plan "Offer they can't refuse".

[X][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Heroic Diplo-Admin geographic administration reform
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Salt gift

Keep in mind that we will be absorbing the only other major naval power during this.

Out of curiosity what do we need to conduct military parades to hammer home just how conspicuously benevolent we are being?
 
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Lailoken said:
Plan "Offer they can't refuse".

[X][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Heroic Diplo-Admin geographic administration reform
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Salt gift

Out of curiosity what do we need to conduct military parades to hammer home just how conspicuously benevolent we are being?
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Proclaim Glory and Enforce Justice methinks. Maybe some Expand Warriors or Chariots on the side.
 
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