I'll freely admit my stance isn't fact, but I do think considering Crow as less Zeus 'head god, preeminent, etc.' and more a vast force beyond most human comprehension is closer to how he's actually seen
I personally see him as a predator beyond our comprehension, a scary as fuck guy who we don't know what his motivations are, what he wants or what he's even doing at the moment. I see him as being so above the other gods that no one could claim kingship since he is so shit your pants terrifying that no one would want to say 'hey I'm your sovereign!' to him.
 
I personally see him as a predator beyond our comprehension, a scary as fuck guy who we don't know what his motivations are, what he wants or what he's even doing at the moment. I see him as being so above the other gods that no one could claim kingship since he is so shit your pants terrifying that no one would want to say 'hey I'm your sovereign!' to him.
There's also the part were Crow technically isn't like the other Gods, so someone could easily claim the title "King of the Gods" while at the same time not having the giant 6-eyed Crow bow to them.

And remember, Crow was so terrifying he had to split himself in three in order to be understood. Dude's scary.
 
Crow is not our chief god in the sense of a traditional pantheon head. Having another take that position isn't necessarily the end of the world.
Neither is Mathulmyn to our population yet, which you regularly cite, IIRC. I don't know why you want to make him the chief god.

It isn't the end of the world but it provides 0 benefits toward technological development et. al. Basically your whole argument is, "We should make this obviously important god the Chief God because that will prevent him from becoming the King of Gods because he'll rule over all the other gods but somehow be Wise rather than the King of Gods which you all dislike."

:facepalm:
 
Well if we give Crow the First Temple, that becomes even less likely since everyone already knows that Crow is the Head God

But Crow is our Chief Spirit. Why shouldn't he get the first Temple? I understand giving her Temple as well, but I don't see why she should have the one in Sacred Forest.

Why? She's a lesser goddess than all the other options, she gives us virtually nothing relatively.

See, that was my original position as well. Crow is our first and most important Spirit Demon God and I was a little worried that if he wasn't picked then, eventually, he would have less importance to the People. However, after AN clarified that Crow would still feature in the temple, specifically on the ceiling, then that worry was reduced. Others also pointed out that Crow has been around for almost as long as the People and is unlikely to disappear anytime soon.

I was also somewhat convinced by the likely morphing over time of Mathalmyn to King of the Gods. Generally, after thinking about it as well, a harvest goddess would fit quite well with the Ymaryn, since our entire success is built on the foundation of our bullshit agriculture.

The most convincing arguement I found, is that Crow doesn't quite fit neatly into our developing pantheon like the others. He's aloof, part of the entire thing, but also seperate and pretty much does his own thing. I think having our first temple dedicated to Crow would go against that. This way he is part of it, but in a way that fits his character better.

Hopefully, that explains my reasoning in a coherent, and somewhat logical manner, and isn't the rambling mess I imagine it is.
 
You read that as an attack?
Yes. For example, I am being extra kind and not directly says what I think the weaker points of other deities are anymore specifically because some people here are generating tons of salt on purpose to get their proposed vote through.

I hate talking like this, but I recognize it is needed given the current environment. Considering I wasn't addressing you, and the concerns you raised weren't relevant to anything I believe Karugus has said is important, or even countering any of my points (of which I didn't even bother making any), what you said definitely came off as attacking a choice at the first opportunity simply because it might encourage someone to vote against what you want.

For the record, from what I understand Karugus wants, it's simply for Mathulmyn to be recognized because he/she would be glorified as the idea of making the king recognized as being fallible, which we honestly would probably get possibilities to do, despite some claims otherwise. No other deity has that, so I explained why I switched. I am trying to focus on positives here.

It's called debating and showing your views, you just said, oh vote for me because your going to lose!
It's his choice who he votes for, if he changes his mind via debate that's fine, if you just say, your opinion isn't going to do anything, it's worthless vote for me, that's not you using logic to change their opinions.
Debate is when you argue a point, let me just brows the last two pages...
Why? She's a lesser goddess than all the other options, she gives us virtually nothing relatively.
Didn't bother taking to long, but this is a good example.
You have put forward a flimsy proposition, given it no real explanation, and just generally attacked a person's opinion. There is no possible way this response would convince anyone of anything. You have not invited the person to prove anything. You have not defined anything in terms of advantages or disadvantages. This is the exact sort of thing that is becoming prevalent more and more in this thread as people fire off short 'nuh uh, your god is shit' posts.

....

This is like waifus to people for some inexplicable reason, isn't it? That explains too much.
Hey dudes. Have some pupper.
Honestly, I'm perfectly calm, I'm just trying to stop people from attacking other people's opinions on a constant basis.

It is exhausting, but it isn't getting my fire stoked or anything.

I really don't mind if Crow wins. I really think several people who are voting for him have raised good reasons to do so. I'm just tired of this constant set of actions where people tell others why something is wrong, and why their right. Seriously, I make one friendly request and I get one person telling me I'm wrong and another starting an argument with me as opposed to trying to convince the person that they should vote for their choice instead. Quoting me
 
[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna

Tactically voting.

Would rather have the god of kings being prominent, but I really don't want our Loki equivalent in charge
 
Anyways, I think we can all appreciate our upcoming chance to get more theological insight into how the Ymaryn's nascent religion really functions, because it seems a lot of us have differing views on what Crow is and how he's tied to the other gods.

Neither is Mathulmyn to our population yet, which you regularly cite, IIRC. I don't know why you want to make him the chief god.

It isn't the end of the world but it provides 0 benefits toward technological development et. al. Basically your whole argument is, "We should make this obviously important god the Chief God because that will prevent him from becoming the King of Gods because he'll rule over all the other gods but somehow be Wise rather than the King of Gods which you all dislike."
I really don't see how trying to create a god of wisdom wouldn't foster technological development, nor why our religion has to be entirely predicated on how much tech* you think it'll grab us. But that's okay, because it's not like either of us actually cares what the other thinks right?

And my argument is 'we have this god we're concerned over, better to keep our proverbial enemy closer than our proverbial friends'. In addition to that, I'm saying I'm not opposed to him gaining power under our terms, but I am vehemently opposed to it without our ability to influence his development.

*I will say that does make a hilarious image.
 
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I am being extra kind and not directly says what I think the weaker points of other deities are anymore specifically because some people here are generating tons of salt on purpose to get their proposed vote through.
Ah.

Frankly, you can go that way if you want, but I decline to follow; "all criticism is an attack" means tolerating gross stupidity like the "let's blow up our civilization" votes that happen regularly.
 
If people want to play chance with maxed thinking trait, go right ahead. I'm sure the myth upkeep can't go any higher.:rolleyes:

Love of Wisdom (Maxed development)

It's not like we have a myth problem.
 
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Honestly, I kind of want a death expy as our eventual head god with an eldritch abomination as our primogenitor.

Mostly so that future archaeologists really scratch their heads at the idea that we were the nice ones.
 
But that's okay, because it's not like either of us actually cares what the other thinks right?
Pretty much.

I'm just tired of you pushing for something that apparently no one else is interested in.

I really don't see how trying to create a god of wisdom wouldn't foster technological development
It's not going to foster technological development with the ease that having a temple dedicated to the alien but knowable god who created our entire universe in a sacred forest where we perform study actions with a library next to it will.

Doing this combination is very obviously shaman-y, whereas trying to take an advisor/king-of-gods god and make him into Wisdom is going to emphasize technology less than it will administrative prowess and decent decision-making.

Honestly, Rainbow Trail is as likely to create Mathulmyn as a Wise Advisor as anything else, and is far less likely to obfuscate our beloved Crow.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Hangwind on Jun 1, 2017 at 5:27 PM, finished with 45139 posts and 108 votes.
 
We need:
1) 2 actions+3 econ Dyes
2) 3 actions+6 econ salt
That's it. Maybe a bit more if we think we can Dominate wine as well. That's ~2-3 turns worth of stats/actions. And it means that we'll have enough guaranteed income that we can afford megaprojects pretty much continuously.


edit: In comparison:
The Games - 8-12 actions, 4-6 Mysticism and Art, 2 Econ
Grand Palace - 10-14 actions, 5-7 Econ and Art
Great Temple - 10-14 actions, 5-7 Econ and Art
Great Dam - 10-14 actions, 5-7 Econ
The Library - 8-12 actions, 4-6 Mysticism and Art, 2 Econ
The Mountain - 16-28 actions, 8-14 Econ
Place to the Stars - 14-20 actions, 7-10 Econ, ??? Mysticism
It's probably worth looking at setting it up as a pseudo-megaproject then, except with immediate results for partial completion.

Actually we die outright if we even brush -4 Stability so that's kinda a bigger action equivalent than any I can think of.
Do we still have that? It's not on our sheet, but I don't know what actually causes it

Honestly, the thread's proven so hostile and dismissive of Mathulmyn I'm almost positive it's going to run away from us and cause problems because no one is actually going to do anything about it.

'If we enshrine him as God of Kings in an advisory position, he'll metamorphose into a King of Gods!- fuck the fact he's getting prayed to already'

'He'll become a symbol of masculine domination because there's no way the 3 interpretations of him can coexist! What do you mean Crow is an over millennia old three-faced god and three-faced gods' have grounding in several diverse cultures?! Nevermind the fact enshrining all 3 facets would be a coup for gender-equality because it legitimizes the idea men need women to temper themselves.'

'We don't want to empower the king by recognizing the populist god anyways, let's just not try and control/dictate his worship because that'll keep it from going out of control! What do you mean we need a strong king position to counteract the despised oligarchs and the ever-present threat of hereditary nobility?'

'Clearly Mathulmyn is an aristocratic construct made to oppress the poor Ymaryn, nevermind the fact he's the most popularly prayed to god in our civ! Nevermind the fact Crow is explicitly too esoteric and removed from the mundanities of reality to be casually worshipped!'

Pretty much every time we've demonized and refused to recognize the validity of something in it's context- I'm looking at the ST here, it's nearly blown up in our faces. All I've been told is that Mathulmyn is a problem, but seen absolutely nothing to address that besides 'it'll fade in time'.

I'm not even arguing for the sake of the vote anymore, I'm legitimately curious how people actually plan on addressing this if Mathulmyn triggers them that much.
Except by getting all the shamans to agree that he's the God of Kings, writing it down explicitly stating as such, and proceeding to teach all the pilgrims that come to said temple that he's the God of Kings not the King of Gods- will do far more to actually prevent that transformation than screaming about the risks and flailing impotently will.

  1. Fact: All those King of Godders will now have less people telling them they're wrong and explaining why
  2. Fact: Strictly oral traditions mutate much more than written traditions
  3. Fact: As time goes on the shamans, our clergy, are going to be more entrenched in their differing opinions and less likely to present a unified theological doctrine on him
  4. Fact: There are now massive amounts of Ymaryn praying to a god with no clearly defined nature and we've already seen arguments boil over from stupider shit than religion
We don't have any written traditions yet - enshrining him here isn't going to prevent oral drift, it's just going to put him in a position to pull a Ra on us and drift into King of Gods, which I don't want because I'm extremely leery of possibly setting up the priesthood to exert more influence over our kings in the future - originally they were brought in as a check against poor heirs, but the current system pretty much has that handled now.

I like Crow, and am hoping that this will enshrine him as head of our Pantheon. I actually rather like Mathulmyn as he is - "advisor-to-the-king" is pretty neat. I just don't want him as chief.


Casus belli should be easy-send them a trade mission and find lots of very small sacrifices. Alternatively, start a trade war.

Access? If we have to burn the valley to flinders it would still be worth it.
Not really our problem - we live in a time where women are routinely kidnapped and forced into a harem of wives across many cultures. Best thing we can do is lead the charge in developing society and technology to a state where we can fix such things.
 
Would rather have the god of kings being prominent, but I really don't want our Loki equivalent in charge
While probably the closest we can get, that isn't quite a fair comparison.

While both Crow and Loki were different from the other gods (Loki being a jotun and Crow coming outside the system like a Demon) and both are Trickster Spirits, that's also pretty much were the similarities end.

For the most part, Loki existed alongside the Aesir and Vanir. Heck, he was blood brothers with Odin. Whenever he taught them lessons or tricked them, he did either as their equal or as someone below them (when he was asked to do tasks he didn't want to).

Crow, on the other hand, is a mentor as well. In all of his appearences, whether he teaches, tricks or destroy, his is above the subjects. Whether they are gods, spirits or mortal men, Crow is equally distant. That's not something that can be said for Loki.

And, of course, as of yet Crow is not destined to cause the end of the world.
 

I didn't read it as an attack, so no need to worry. If it makes you feel better, it's good to see you taking part in the thread again since I always find your analysis and arguements interesting and informative.

tbh I'm quite surprised it's even this close. When I saw the options in the update, my immediate thought was 'Ha! Crow will win in a landslide!' so this has turned into a very interesting vote and discussion.
 
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