Paths of Civilization

McLuvin · Jun 1, 2017

Chrestomanci said:
But that wouldn't have him as above the gods/separate from them. It would just mean he is the greatest of the gods

Which he is, he is above them, the only being with true wisdom, he is the patron of the greatest society in the world.
We must ensure his preeminence in our society, if we don't solidify his position he will lose it, and I don't want our people to worship some common farmer when they could be trying to unlock the mysteries of the First and greatest of all beings!

veekie · Jun 1, 2017

Candesce said:
Centers of Trade's advantage is the Diplomacy drip, which is nice but somewhat redundant with the smaller drip from Saltern, and the pressures it'll put on our people to develop more advanced forms of trade.

Actually having the Saltern makes the diplomacy drip insane. By having both trait and saltern we immediately have a dominant trade production, giving us +2 Diplomacy Drip. We can increase the Saltern lead dramatically to an uncontestable level and add another +1 Diplomacy drip every turn by committing extra salterns. With an income of 3 Diplomacy every turn...we can basically finance all those inefficient but lucrative actions, especially megaprojects, via overflow power.

Look to our trade goods:
Dye - Leading, but not dominant. Improving this is cheap for us.
Textiles - None. Not much point in competing here, we can't match cotton and we don't have it.
Gold - None. Not much point competing here, gold is rare and we'd have to ramp up the gold production massively to matter.
Silver - Moderate. This tells us that at ONE silver mine, we're in the running, but need more to hit the top. Would prefer not to hit the top, silver mining is very polluting and so we have an intrinsic disadvantage compared to people who are willing to dump arsenic and sulfuric acid into their rivers.
Salt - Dominant. No competition at all.
Copper - See Silver. Except worse since everyone has it. Too much pain to compete with.
Bronze/Tin - Nothing here. We need to establish local production, but competing is pointless.
Iron - Haha not trading this.
Wine(@Academia Nut is wine considered one trade good or are all alcohols under the same?) - Dominant. No competition for now, and difficult for the lowlands to catch up, because the soil is wrong for it. We can improve the flavor and variety well enough here to add diversity, because we're the only ones who make enough honey and fruit in the region to experiment with mead and ciders.

So off the bat?
We got the Saltern drip +1
We get bonus drip for salt and dye +2(?)
We'll be getting the Wine drip next turn +1(?)

What can we do with a passive income of +4 Diplomacy per turn?
Well, for starters, once we trigger a golden age, we could probably spam megaprojects like mad with this.
EDIT: Okay, less crazy than it sounds

pblur · Jun 1, 2017

OK I take it back. Centre of trade is nearly useless ATM. Let's get something else...

Abby Normal · Jun 1, 2017

Candesce said:
We were expecting +3 already, 2 from wine and 1 from boats.

Academia Nut said:
Uhhh... no, you need to be dominant to get the bonus. Leading just tells you that you have the largest market share but you need to expand trade or production to reach dominant. Will have to adjust the labelling. That +3 is for the stuff you're going to get from your actions, not +3 per turn. That would go into the square brackets.

Oooh, ok, yeah i completely misunderstood the post of yours that i quoted <.< >.>
(That is, i thought when you said the 0 was a placeholder and we'd be getting +3 next midturn, i read that as "the 0 is a placeholder for CoT bonuses, it'll turn into a 3 next midturn when it takes effect", since i'd already known the existing +3 was from our regular actions)

10ebbor10 · Jun 1, 2017

veekie said:
@Academia Nut is wine considered one trade good or are all alcohols under the same

He confirmed it is.

Academia Nut · Jun 1, 2017

veekie said:
is wine considered one trade good or are all alcohols under the same?

Wine is transportable where beer is not. You will probably begin at the leading level next turn.

veekie · Jun 1, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Uhhh... no, you need to be dominant to get the bonus. Leading just tells you that you have the largest market share but you need to expand trade or production to reach dominant. Will have to adjust the labelling. That +3 is for the stuff you're going to get from your actions, not +3 per turn. That would go into the square brackets.

Do we know how far we are from being Dominant in Dye and Salt?

Also to expand trade I think we just got Trade Missions to the Thunder Horse left of all known civilizations, unless we put up a Trading Post at the Hathatyn or Metal Workers place to trade with the people past them

pblur · Jun 1, 2017

veekie said:
Salt - Dominant. No competition at all.

Not true. Though I don't understand why not.

veekie said:
Wine(@Academia Nut is wine considered one trade good or are all alcohols under the same?) - Dominant. No competition for now, and difficult for the lowlands to catch up, because the soil is wrong for it. We can improve the flavor and variety well enough here to add diversity, because we're the only ones who make enough honey and fruit

Speculation. Seems more likely we'll be leading.

Candesce · Jun 1, 2017

veekie said:
Well, for starters, once we trigger a golden age, we could probably spam megaprojects like mad with this.

A) To reach a golden age, we're going to need a lot more stability. This is going to be painful enough as is.
B) We need at least 2 salterns for the bonus, we're explicitly not getting it for free.
C) No, we couldn't spam megaprojects. Our limiting factor for those continues to be economy, and we're not going to be flooding that even with +4 dip per turn. We don't need the distraction this trait represents - either in stability costs or trying to maintain dominance in trade.

Academia Nut · Jun 1, 2017

veekie said:
Do we know how far we are from being Dominant in Dye and Salt?

Not far in dye, and you only need one more saltern or expansion to become dominant in salt.

veekie · Jun 1, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Wine is transportable where beer is not. You will probably begin at the leading level next turn.

I mean other transportable alcohols. Like Mead, and Ciders.

Also Whiskey once we figure out how to distill, which we do have all the tools for.

Dieb · Jun 1, 2017

pblur said:
OK I take it back. Centre of trade is nearly useless ATM. Let's get something else...

Well we haven't seen the "early access to advanced mechanics" side of it yet. We might get some new Actions next turn. Plus, if we commit the 8 minor actions and 16 econ to expand our current Saltern and build a new one we'll become dominant in Salt almost certainly AND get another +1 from more salt, bringing us to +3 Diplo per turn, which is pretty crazy high. And no one else is likely to be able to build a saltern for a really long time, so we'd avoid the downsides.

Edit: So we only need one more Saltern to become dominant, which is only 3 minor actions and 6 Econ away. Then we'd be at +2 diplo a turn. After that, it would be 5 minor actions and 10 econ to expanding our current Saltern to get another +1 diplo from salt, for a total of +3.

VoidZero · Jun 1, 2017

McLuvin said:
A mere leaf! HA!
Your arrogance shows your foolishness.

The earth, forests, fields and herds are plenty good for a single man, but for a nation? It is not enough!

Crow showed us how to question ourselves and innovate, from that was drawn so many new ideas which have enriched our people.

A farmer is someone to be respected, but without someone to think of new ideas to improve his life and society he will only be prey for the first bandit, or put at the mercy of the first plague that ravages his body.

My family will not starve, for I would have already thought of a new way to feed them whilst you still till your fields! Whilst you still crawl in the dirt and filth like a maggot!

So stick your head down, just work all your life and be content with what you have, forget dreams, forget knowledge, forget innovation. Sit there and breed, sit there and feast and then stay the same all your life, whilst under Crow, the entire world will pass you by.

Ha! A sail claiming to control wind, bag of air i say!

When the warriors train, they eat; when the shamans heal, they eat; when the chiefs talk, they eat. Who would you be when there are no food?

What fool would suggest people can build without wood without soil without water? Think without substances?

For a person of question, you certainly took food for granted.

Academia Nut · Jun 1, 2017

Dieb said:
Plus, if we commit the 8 minor actions and 16 econ to expand our current Saltern and build a new one we'll become dominant in Salt almost certainly AND get another +1 from more salt, bringing us to +3 Diplo per turn, which is pretty crazy high. And no one else is likely to be able to build a saltern for a really long time, so we'd avoid the downsides.

You only need 3 minor actions and 6 Econ to become dominant in salt, and your next +1 from salt can be unlocked with five minor actions and 8 Econ, if you pick those actions correctly.

Dieb · Jun 1, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You only need 3 minor actions and 6 Econ to become dominant in salt, and your next +1 from salt can be unlocked with five minor actions and 8 Econ, if you pick those actions correctly.

Yea I saw your post after mine and edited for the 3 minor actions and 6 econ to become dominant. But after that, wouldn't it be 5 minor actions and 10 econ for the expansion of our current saltern to get the next +1 from salt, not 8 econ?

veekie · Jun 1, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Not far in dye, and you only need one more saltern or expansion to become dominant in salt.

Okay, so put out a Man Snails or two to get the nearest point, then start slipping work on the Salt

Ian Drash · Jun 1, 2017

[X] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Chrestomanci · Jun 1, 2017

tenchifew said:
In two hundred years or so, if Crow is not the main god, he will become the god's messenger or something similar.

Crow is a difficult god to accept and worship. All the other options are far more mundane and easier.

If we do not choose crow now, do not expect him to stay all too significant for much longer.

Not likely, he could end up above the gods as a unique entity. I think it would be better to keep him as the sole 'Titan', or 'Asura' rather than just another god.

I doubt Crow could lose significance easily, remember our sacred warriors are crow themed and Crow myths are a majority.

Academia Nut said:
On the Order of Spirits

Crow

Crow, the Creator and Teacher, is something else entirely. By the framework above, Crow would be considered a 'demon-god', but the conclusion drawn is that while he comes from the same place beyond the order of the world as demons he himself is not a demon as he helped produce the order of the world, and he is not intrinsically malicious. Dangerous yes, but malicious no. A better translation of his role would be 'Primordial', 'Titan', or 'Asura'. Something immensely powerful and a little bit outside the current order, but not demonic. The fact that Crow does not take a leadership role among gods and spirits is also a notable divergence for one of his power.

McLuvin said:
Which he is, he is above them, the only being with true wisdom, he is the patron of the greatest society in the world.
We must ensure his preeminence in our society, if we don't solidify his position he will lose it, and I don't want our people to worship some common farmer when they could be trying to unlock the mysteries of the First and greatest of all beings!

I do not think that having him on the ceiling and not both will make his position be somehow lost.

The central god will change over time, I'm hoping we end up with a god of all nature(Divine Stewards) not farming.

bluefur87 · Jun 1, 2017

Dieb said:
Crow + alien but knowable + attaching the Library to the Temple = proto university. Remember two things: 1) The Library is Observance linked - it's explicitly about preserving "Ideas, not records". 2) We have the constant 1 mysticism drain from Love of Wisdom due to the costs of educating our Shamans. Having this proto university is, I think, the best chance we have of negating that drain.

For the record, this is the sort of reasoning I like to see. A lot of people wonder where the salt comes from? It's from not enough people expressing their opinions like this or not respecting people who express their opinions like this. Say what you want, and unless it's truly critical that we don't do something else, respect the other people's prerogatives or don't talk about them. Like, I get a lot of people are doing it in jest, but that still normalizes the behavior.

This is, by the way, is the best actual logical argument for why to put crow in the lead, even if I don't personally want him for this temple.

veekie said:
EDIT: Okay, less crazy than it sounds

It's actually very crazy when combined with our Saltern and Dyes.

Saltern, one more should get us to a dominant position in the market. That would be +1 a turn. Another should get us the extra bonus. That would be another +1 a turn. Dyes can relatively easily be raised and have the market cornered. That's another +1 a turn.

That would total to +5 diplo a turn (with the addition of our current Saltern), and honestly not be very hard to achieve. Considering this overflowing into art and then mysticism and, what overflows after mysticism? Econ or Martial? If it's econ we have something hilariously broken here in potential. The real question would be on how to keep it up while still having the True City Status.

Edit: Of course, if that extra econ uses up econ slots, problem solved!

Umi-san · Jun 1, 2017

Dieb said:
Seriously. We're only "Leading" in Salt, even though we don't have any competitors. My guess is that to be dominant, you need to be at have 2 least two major "sources" of that trade good ahead of anyone else. If we built another Slatern, or maybe expanded the one we have AND build another, then we'd be dominant in Salt. Probably worth doing somewhat soon, we'd get two more diplo a turn (one from Centre of Trade, one from getting two expansions of salt) and it would "only" cost 8 minor actions (and 16 econ). The advantage of being dominant in salt is that we're far less likely to get competition then if we were to become dominant in dye or wine.

We don't have any competitors because no one is trading in our area.
We are aware of at least one other salt-producing civ, who might outproduce us.

VoidZero said:
Do you want to worship an alien trick god that hides their intention?

Yes, a thousand times yes.

Candesce said:
So, let's hope that wine really does help with festivals, because I don't think we want to hold on to that trait too long. Especially with guilds.

#Bacchus

Candesce said:
Centers of Trade's advantage is the Diplomacy drip, which is nice but somewhat redundant with the smaller drip from Saltern, and the pressures it'll put on our people to develop more advanced forms of trade.

The thing is, at the moment we don't want pressures on our people; we're trying to patch ourselves back together right now, and get some long-term projects finished up. Stability just became a very high priority.

I don't really agree; I think that pressures are a quite good thing. Right now we have long term projects to get finished up, but honestly all of these projects are just "maybe we should do this cus it's cool" things; so long as the Temple fixes our Mysticism drain, they're not actually necessary.

Pressure to develop more advanced forms of trade leads to numerous benefits, for all that it also opposes our communal base.

Academia Nut said:
Uhhh... no, you need to be dominant to get the bonus. Leading just tells you that you have the largest market share but you need to expand trade or production to reach dominant. Will have to adjust the labelling. That +3 is for the stuff you're going to get from your actions, not +3 per turn. That would go into the square brackets.

Well, that's shitty. We should switch to Trade or Progress soon so that we can develop new trade goods from Study Forest and improve our current ones.

@Academia Nut Will the Saltern count as a policy action or otherwise symphony-able action for the Trade policy?

Dieb said:
Yea I saw your post after mine and edited for the 3 minor actions and 6 econ to become dominant. But after that, wouldn't it be 5 minor actions and 10 econ for the expansion of our current saltern to get the next +1 from salt, not 8 econ?

He said "if you pick those actions correctly" so there's probably something secret we're missing.

Abby Normal · Jun 1, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Not far in dye, and you only need one more saltern or expansion to become dominant in salt.

With this new value, will our provinces be more likely to take actions like More Snails while still on balanced? Can our projects take extended projects on their own volition (either as is on balanced, or if we had megaproject policy on but didn't have a megaproject active)? Also, while i'm sure this was asked a long time ago, do extended projects count for the "land management type Megaproject" bonus from divine stewards?

Abby Normal · Jun 1, 2017

Umi-san said:
He said "if you pick those actions correctly" so there's probably something secret we're missing.

I'd almost think the solution was "survey for a new saltern site with a main action, then build that for 3 secondaries", but main survey only costs 1 econ, not 2...

Candesce · Jun 1, 2017

Umi-san said:
I think that pressures are a quite good thing.

You may have noticed I listed that as an advantage. That was intentional.

You may also have noticed that we're currently at stability -1.

McLuvin · Jun 1, 2017

VoidZero said:
Ha! A sail claiming to control wind, bag of air i say!

When the warriors train, they eat; when the shamans heal, they eat; when the chiefs talk, they eat. Who would you be when there are no food?

What fool would suggest people can build without wood without soil without water? Think without substances?

For a person of question, you certainly took food for granted.

You show your lack of knowledge about anything other than the dirt you crawl in once more!

Yes, all The People eat, but they do not just eat the wheat and harvest. Do we not eat the fish that swim in river and sea? Do we not eat of the berries and fruits of the trees? Do we not eat of the beasts we hunt and kill with our bows?

Do you so easily forget of the meat of calf you eat regularly as the gods command?
If so you show you have no room in a place of debate due to your senile nature!

The goddess of harvest is useful yes.

But you do not raise a uneducated peasant girl to a throne of kings just because she serves you the first course of your meal!

You seek to raise a goddess who is important into a place of prominence over those who are even more important!
You seek to remove the emphasis of innovation and intelligence we have focussed on for so long just for one goddess whose prominence is not as grand as you would have us think!

A goddess of one source of food, the main source though it may be, cannot be given preeminence over the creator god of wisdom itself! The unknowable mystery of Crow should not become secondary to a god who is lesser in importance!
It was Crow who made the people! Crow who made the Gods! Crow who made the Spirits!

And making wheat does not compare.

tenchifew · Jun 1, 2017

Chrestomanci said:
Not likely, he could end up above the gods as a unique entity. I think it would be better to keep him as the sole 'Titan', or 'Asura' rather than just another god.

I doubt Crow could lose significance easily, remember our sacred warriors are crow themed and Crow myths are a majority.

I do not think that having him on the ceiling and not both will make his position be somehow lost.

The central god will change over time, I'm hoping we end up with a god of all nature(Divine Stewards) not farming.

Actually just taking a look on Egyptian history makes it questionable.
The gods with more dedicated priests and followers tended to marginalized the older ones quickly.

And just take a look on our own history- how many gods did we gain?

And it us said by AN that Crow is not prayed much to anymore.
Add to it lack of consistent religious writing, and I do expect Crow to be far less than he is now in two centuries -8 turns- or so.

Paths of Civilization

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

DON'T PANIC

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Procrastinating.

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

High Clerk of the Ymaryn