@Academia Nut
Is there a chance for us to get/develop greater good if we get an empty slot?

After all we have no less than three traits we fusioned with the greater good, and had greater good for a long time, so the concept itself should be very well known to our people.
 
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
@Academia Nut
Have we just had shit Study Stars rolls recently or were we just absolutely stupidly lucky before? Did the Study Stars help give us warning about the drought like how it gave us the Baby Boom?
The big Study Stars turn was the one where we picked up Observance at 4 in a row and beat back Pestilence. We stopped the chain to 1-turn the Saltern. AN gave us a chance to continue the chain, but we opted to start the Garden instead. I don't think we've passed 4 since.
 
Finally caught up to present!

[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
*wiggles hands* I think you both have good points. I figure to make a really proper decision on it we need to finish the Temple, put out any brushfires, then decide where the Library is gonna go dependent on our changed needs.
It was more an arguement against bluefur87. He wants them in the same place. I countered with the Sacred Forest being the best place for that.
 
Finally caught up to present!

[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
Jeebus, did you read through the entire quest? If you did good job. Really good job. *applause*
 
eh what the hell. wagon time.
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
So many arguments. So much salt. I think my eyes are desiccated. I know my brain has turned to mush. But the need to know what happened...

HOLY CHRIST!? YOU READ THE ENTIRE 1784 PAGES?

GOOD GOD! YOU NEED TREATMENT FOR TOXIC SALT SHOCK STAT!















HAVE ALL THE HUGS! *SQUEESH!*
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 1:47 AM, finished with 44586 posts and 81 votes.
 
What have you liked best so far?
My far and away favorite thing out of this whole damned quest is when the copper-age society killed cholera in the middle of an epidemic while taking in refugees from the surrounding societies, and then expended massive effort to make sure everyone they knew also knew how to end it, and then started a massive project to make salt cheaper that had people working on it even on their personal time. That sort of civilization-level heroism is just amazing to imagine.
HOLY CHRIST!? YOU READ THE ENTIRE 1784 PAGES?

GOOD GOD! YOU NEED TREATMENT FOR TOXIC SALT SHOCK STAT!

HAVE ALL THE HUGS! *SQUEESH!*
Eh, I read all of PMAS when it was about this long.
 
My far and away favorite thing out of this whole damned quest is when the copper-age society killed cholera in the middle of an epidemic while taking in refugees from the surrounding societies, and then expended massive effort to make sure everyone they knew also knew how to end it, and then started a massive project to make salt cheaper that had people working on it even on their personal time. That sort of civilization-level heroism is just amazing to imagine.

Eh, I read all of PMAS when it was about this long.
Yeah we have pulled some awesome shit.

What did you think of our Gilgamesh Expy Gwygoytha?
 
Yes, although without the trait your options will be much more limited.
Awesome. And figured as much, though I think we got the really good ones of Carrion Eaters and Blackbirds early already
The idea of simply sacrificing to the spirits and gods in bigger amounts drifted out of the cultural zeitgeist as something that would reassure people. They think that more sophisticated actions are required in order to be made confident that their leaders are doing their best.
Ah...the spirits got harder to bribe I see.
They evolved it.

Moloch Calls.
Should have known they'd optimize it...

Next Cosmopolitan Pinata is probably the Highland Kingdom then. Would be interesting to see what they made of their Order Above All

@Academia Nut
Trade Chief & Spirit Chief - What do you guys know about the cultures and practices of our current neighbors and trade partners?
what were the snails for why are they there

Why are there so many snails?!
Snails are like dicks. Dicks are funny when you're a sex starved and extremely bored monk copying your hundredth book.
Children are unproductive. It's either this or feed them to the wolves, who are all dead and chased away. At least this way they're in the god's arms and the people will be blessed with future prosperity.

It thus serves both the greater good and the child's own.
Also more practically look at how the sacrifice works:
-War-slaves - Most efficient(since other culture pays for their food and upbringing), but supply is unreliable.
-Adults - Not very efficient. You have already invested two dozen years of food and training, sacrificing their potential economic power.
-Children - Very efficient. You sacrifice someone who had a small investment in food for a large emotional impact and catharsis.

Children are pretty low on upfront costs and barely hurt productivity at all.The problem is...

It's not per child, but they do have ridiculously cheap Stability generation and their odds of gaining Stability instead of losing it from government action are much higher than with the Greater Good. They just, you know, have a trait that will make most other civilizations eventually want them dead.

They have a really bad habit of that. The negaverse thread when they realized what they had evolved Greater Good into required two mod interventions and Arthur Dent to show up and yell at everyone before it was unlocked.
Everyone else's Justice and Loyalty traits will be triggered HARD by it.

Look at how it's interpreted:
-Family Honor cultures - Slaying your kin is abominable.
-Ancestral Honor cultures - You would send children to their ancestors before they make
-Protective Justice variant cultures(that includes the Nomad Protect your In Group route) - Slaying children is a grave injustice


@veekie Unrealistic portrayal of G&G. Unlikely that they'd be the same 3/4, magically different for the one.
This is based on what their relationship to people living there are:
-Sacred Forest - Their primary experience with Gwy and Gyo's concept is the forest lifecycle. As they are somewhat isolated from politics, they don't think of the great clans and chiefs as their first concept of having common ancestry, but rather how all life behaves similarly despite their superficial differences.

-Valleyhome - Their primary experience with Gwy and Gyo's concept is the old Chief families claiming a direct tracable lineage to Gwygotha as a basis for rule(which is uh...true, if not nearly that magical considering how she fucked everything).

-Rainbow Trail - Their primary experience with Gwy and Gyo's concept is how All People Die. Born from them, great or small, to the grave you go and your clan carries your legacy. It might be recorded somewhere on their walls that Gwygotha ordered the second great expansion of Rainbow Trail. Might.

-Holy Sea - Their primary experience with Gwy and Gyo is being historically where it all began. There may be lingering, local tales of how Gwy and Gyo represented the land and the sea mating. and producing the People(which is uh...true, for how you got Gwygotha to begin with)

They seem to trade with people to the south and west, as well as the nomads in general.
Ah, and that there might be the use of the Trade Post then...do their Southbound traders go across the sea or by land?
@Academia Nut do we know why our marches were sending trade missions to the nomads?
Why wouldn't they? They've made enough war that the nomads are humiliated and learned that you should trade with the Ymaryn or die to the Ymaryn.

Think of what happened between America and Japan after WWII. After getting their face punched in, they decided being friends and receiving all sorts of aid is far better than getting your face punched in. Again.
That's not a claim of 'you should put crow in valleyhome' that was pointing out that people have, last I checked, wanted the library in valleyhome so that would be the good place to put his temple. If he does get put in the sacred forest, we should absolutely try to put the library there.
Depends on what you want the library to do. As a center of research and philosophy? Sacred Forest. As a reference guide to the Chiefs when making decisions? Valleyhome.

I seriously doubt the library is exclusive. It's likely an Infrastructure extended project.


Have them push it, or limit it? It's not like having it elsewhere will diminish the ability of our shamans as a whole to come to it as they would come to pay homage at the temple. And it can serve to inform people through distributing articles upon request, as well. Putting it at the main temple to some degree associates it only with the shamans of that temple, rather than having it be the provenance of all. Finally, a perceived lack of literacy among the general population (more likely when it isn't being used almost solely by shamans from the neighboring temple) would be quite likely to push toward public literacy.

Start as you would finish.
FYI, early libraries are not usually open to the public. Most people cannot read, and every user puts more of the records at risk of damage and very manpower intensive rescribing work. Even the chiefs are usually semi-literate at most, especially with the Guild model.

There are a few non-exclusive models:
-The Sacred Repository, where people consult with the priests, who consult with the libraries to answer concerns.
-The Restricted Access, where people must earn admission by social status or achievement. Usually people are not allowed to take stuff out.
-The Print-On-Demand, where people can visit the library to pay for specific works to be copied for their own use and reference.
-The Vault, where the important part is preservation rather than utilization.

*shaman slap-fight ensues over what Crow's teachings actually are*
Crow definitely approves!

An unknown, but knowable chief god will be pretty resistant to sect divisions I think. Something like "All these ideas might be true...so, who can prove theirs?"
An addendum to this but AN has also mentioned that Sacred Forest is also easier to get to than Valleyhome, if you wanna visit the Temple.

Yep. Sacred Forest is the most accessible to any given province. Valleyhome is the most politically accessible, but history does reflect that libraries in major city centers tend to suffer unfortunate fates. Libraries in more remote or religious locations tended to survive longer, though they do get abandoned if the civilization to support their work fails.

Bloody fires, riots, conquest, political revisionism and other nonsense hits big cities harder.
For us, mainly political revisionism. Put the records near the politicians and they'd start thinking of how to make the records make them look better to the future.
 
Yeah we have pulled some awesome shit.

What did you think of our Gilgamesh Expy Gwygoytha?
Utterly hilarious, especially her wife. Just... completely contrary to expectations.

I'm definitely enjoying the "early empiricism" going on with the religion here, thus the votes for Crow.

But now, I really think I should sleep. Mainlinining this quest all day has done some weird things to my brainmeats.
 
[] [Temple] Crow
[] [Crow] Alien but knowable

This is a really bad combo.
[] [Crow] Alien but knowable
is great for giving us a representation of reality, and establishing Natural Philosophy as a branch of our theology.

But you can't PRAY to nature while studying it deterministicly. Our science god SHOULD influence all the worship, but he shouldn't be what we ask for favors.

I'd be willing to tactically vote for anything to avoid this conflict undermining our new Natural Philosophy.
 
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[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable

This is a really bad combo.
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
is great for giving us a representation of reality, and establishing Natural Philosophy as a branch of our theology.

But you can't PRAY to nature while studying it deterministicly. Our science god SHOULD influence all the worship, but he shouldn't be what we ask for favors.

I'd be willing to tactically vote for anything to avoid this conflict undermining our new Natural Philosophy.
well, you're voting for it so....

@veekie will reply when I have the energy
 
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable

This is a really bad combo.
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
is great for giving us a representation of reality, and establishing Natural Philosophy as a branch of our theology.

But you can't PRAY to nature while studying it deterministicly. Our science god SHOULD influence all the worship, but he shouldn't be what we ask for favors.

I'd be willing to tactically vote for anything to avoid this conflict undermining our new Natural Philosophy.
Ummm... I don't agree? What says you cannot pray to nature while studying it deterministicly? There are scientists who still believe in God or other religions, and simply use science as a tool for further understanding.

Also Your vote has been replaced so you might want to remove the X's.

E: See here. Possibilianism.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 2:03 AM, finished with 44593 posts and 81 votes.
 
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Ummm... I don't agree? What says you cannot pray to nature while studying it deterministicly? There are scientists who still believe in God or other religions, and simply use science as a tool for further understanding.

Also Your vote has been replaced so you might want to remove the X's.
Whoops. Fixed.

Thing is, when you pray to something, you're expecting it to act nondeterministically. You expect it to respond to your prayer, and not just carry on like clockwork. That interferes with science if the thing is your representation of the natural world.

Edit: This isn't a problem for most religions; their god isn't directly the natural world. It would pose a problem for a few, like pantheism.
 
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[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes(Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Seriously, why would you not vote for the Best God, Crow.
 
Whoops. Fixed.

Thing is, when you pray to something, you're expecting it to act nondeterministically. You expect it to respond to your prayer, and not just carry on like clockwork. That interferes with science if the thing is your representation of the natural world.
pray for insight. fix it yourself
 
An unknown, but knowable chief god will be pretty resistant to sect divisions I think. Something like "All these ideas might be true...so, who can prove theirs?"
It's still religion.

"My idea of how to know Crow is the correct one!"
"No, mine is! You don't know Crow like I do!"
"Shut up!"
"You shut up!"
*slap-fight*
 
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