Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Mists of Albion
You said that guilds were oligarchical representing the powerful few when the QM stated that they would, in this incarnation, be the most democratic of the two.
Direct contradiction.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Historically changing guilds was rare and open only to those who can afford buying into guilds.
Hell European guilds were more protective of thier status than even the landed nobility.
As for quality and meritocracy, the guilds didn't give a damn, they existed to maintain monopoly and status. The venetians guilds where so fixed on status quo that they bankrupted themselves duo to not adopting new manufacturing techniques of Dutch guilds. The French guilds where so restrictive that people flocked to aristocratic cities (Lords had thier own laws and thus could establish industries without guilds, the fact that people preferred French Lords to guildsmen should show how bad things were)
Thier inherit inability to innovate and thier inflexibility (and the utter public loathing of them) is what caused thier collapse (they got the guillotine along with the Lords, or where dismantled by Lords to appease the people or to advance the state).
- Location
- Mists of Albion
How is that ignoring it?
The QM didn't say we'd get an option to destroy nepotism if we chose geographical, and I was using a previous example of when we weren't given the option to curb nepotism created by a vote.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Both options are oligarchical. Trades are already explicitly established to be oligarchical and de facto hereditary. Oligarchy isn't really on the table here.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Hey @Academia Nut , if we hit 100% of light walls, can we use Secondary actions to build on them as a foundation for significant walls? And again, from significant to massive?
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Actions)
5 Spent on tribute, 2 spent on diplo missions, and then each diplo mission again only rolled 1 instead of 2, so we broke even on them
Edit: AN has updated, we actually got +3 out of those missions =D
Econ 10 [-1] -> 8 [-1]
As expected, spent to build more walls
Econ Expansion 6 -> 6
6 - 4 (expand econ) + 4 (1 each for temple/trails/walls/mine)
Martial 11 {14} -> 10 {13}
Lost 1 martial in the fighting, so under limit now
Voting this for now:
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justicex2
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
Edit: Switching to occupational thanks to people pointing out that it will likely be (at least initially) less nepotistic than geographical, per AN's post
Edit 2: AN fixed the diplo score
Edit 3: Switching back
Diff Checker (Actions)
Diplo 14 [+1] -> 9
5 Spent on tribute, 2 spent on diplo missions, and then each diplo mission again only rolled 1 instead of 2, so we broke even on them
Edit: AN has updated, we actually got +3 out of those missions =D
Econ 10 [-1] -> 8 [-1]
As expected, spent to build more walls
Econ Expansion 6 -> 6
6 - 4 (expand econ) + 4 (1 each for temple/trails/walls/mine)
Martial 11 {14} -> 10 {13}
Lost 1 martial in the fighting, so under limit now
No longer at martial cap, so negative stab isn't as terrible
Oooh, very nice! Also, i'll note that we've now merged GG with all of our social traits...maybe we can get a bonus slot out of "literally all social traits are GG based, grab GG again from CA"? Quick, everyone butter up AN to convince him to do so
New social concept...don't know enough about sociology or government or history to know if thats good or bad...
Vineyard eats an econ expansion slot
Walls and watchtowers are completely changed; 85% total wall coverage, 40% watchtower...could od with some more watchtowers i think
Very nice! Mind, given the 85% coverage of walls, i dont expect super good results :/
We can have 11 instead of 10 now...i guess from the wall maybe?
Forests eat econ expansions, contrary to previous thoughts
these all return econ expansion slots, and we've reunlocked the trading post for the MW
Boats give us econ expansion slots, good to know
Change in wording
Clarification that this returns econ slots...but unless thats a typo, the main doesn't break even on that? @Academia Nut ?
Voting this for now:
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justicex2
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
Edit: Switching to occupational thanks to people pointing out that it will likely be (at least initially) less nepotistic than geographical, per AN's post
Edit 2: AN fixed the diplo score
Edit 3: Switching back
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
The info post says that occupational would include voting and low forms of democracy, not be a straight up nepotistic oligarchical exercise like the geographical option
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
AN's direct statement was that geographic would be most NOTICEABLY unfair, not that it would be most unfair. people are more likely to notice things going wrong in their district as opposed to their shadowy guild leadership.
E: But this is also true....
hmmm
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Noticeably unfair nepotism compared to the choice that utilises a more democratic format?
Yeah, not making your case here mate.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justicex2
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
Must... Steal.. The Greater Good... for Communism
Although I wonder if we can start stealing upgraded traits now.
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justicex2
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
Must... Steal.. The Greater Good... for Communism
Although I wonder if we can start stealing upgraded traits now.
Seriously, this GM has thought about these sorts of politics. Guilds will happily screw over everybody, including their own underclasses, to help the the few deeply entrenched interests at their own tops, and there's pretty much no recourse for anybody to do anything about it.
The GM, in fact, did not say any such thing. That Geographic is mentioned to be quite clearly not meritocratic does not imply that occupational would be any moreso, and certainly not that any corruption would be nearly as obvious. That occupational management means that the occupations are managing their practitioners is practically tautological.
The GM, in fact, did not say any such thing. That Geographic is mentioned to be quite clearly not meritocratic does not imply that occupational would be any moreso, and certainly not that any corruption would be nearly as obvious. That occupational management means that the occupations are managing their practitioners is practically tautological.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I feel that geographical will be, too, once we get a chance to change. And unlike the occupational option, this will actually allow us a chance to reform our entire political structure rather than build a theoretically democratic form on top of it. I say theoretical because power will inevitably corrupt people's views, as it did in the IRL theoretically largely meritocratic guild system. Even though it's people lower in the hierarchy who vote others into higher positions - a system identical to our current political apparatus - it is likely that those higher up would be able to affect the votes of those lower than them.
And yeah, AN straight up said that the geographical system would be noticeably unfair, i.e. it would draw peoples attention to nepotism giving us chance to fight it.
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pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Actually, it's stated the geographical would (at least initially) include the current low-level meritocratic system but would make the nepotistic unfairness more obvious.
No, because unlike a true guild in the medieval sense they will have no secrets to keep, and be closer to the local chiefs of the district. If anything, I would expect the leaders to be trying to increase their trade's population since that directly increases their power. Again, think union bosses, not guild leaders. And assuming that the options work like they did before, the change will only affect the City, not our entire polity.
No, the point of a guild is to teach a complex skill in a society where things like reading aren't all that common. They became issues over time, but especially in the time after the fall of Rome, they were the only reason certain specialized knowledge survived.
Glaze: Another society
Wheel: Invented before our society began, improved by the Nomads
Compound bows: No idea
Metal: Yup. A priest. Very good!
Salt: Priest.
Disease cure: Priest.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
"And yes, those lower down in the hierarchy would vote on who to move higher up the hierarchy,"
Direct voting giving legitimacy. Compared to a clearly corrupt, nepotistic oligarchical system.
We didn't get a chance to change after Honour of Elites created an Oligarchy, how is this different?
Don't forget that even just implementing it within the city limits would improve the chances of fighting injustice everywhere. The city subchiefs were described as using the same cyptynepotistic approaches as everywhere else, but their being far more obviously unmeritocratic in these circumstances. Once somebody's had the curtain pulled away in the city it'll be a lot easier for them to see it elsewhere.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Edited reply.
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Troubled years make the finest claret.
We should vote vineyard
We should vote vineyard
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Citation needed please mate
- Location
- Staring into the void
Better to have the (potentially) higher but more visible corruption, than lower but invisible corruption. Vote for geographic distribution.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Same citation you already gave. Reread it.
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
Centralization is still too high to use Enforce Justice without driving Centralization overcap when we fill out the still marginal roads, so Main Restore Order done at Stability -1, is as usual, one of the better choices(pointing to Stability -2 misses that we've been there and it still worked), especially given this:
Well, for geographical vs occupational, AN already explicitly said it's problems here:
Noticably Unfair doesn't mean things get done about it. It just means that we stop pretending.
And for the trait, Xohyssiri gives us continuance towards the quest of "Fuse Greater Good into everything we can". We still have Honorable Death and Honor of Elites to combine with it!
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order
[x] [Secondary] Restore Order x2
Centralization is still too high to use Enforce Justice without driving Centralization overcap when we fill out the still marginal roads, so Main Restore Order done at Stability -1, is as usual, one of the better choices(pointing to Stability -2 misses that we've been there and it still worked), especially given this:
Since we have a clear corruption problem, not just a crime problem
Well, for geographical vs occupational, AN already explicitly said it's problems here:
So if that isn't convincing, nothing much will.
Noticably Unfair doesn't mean things get done about it. It just means that we stop pretending.
And for the trait, Xohyssiri gives us continuance towards the quest of "Fuse Greater Good into everything we can". We still have Honorable Death and Honor of Elites to combine with it!