Paths of Civilization

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the east (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)

Region based governance isn't new, this is just adapting it to where things weren't working out with the old system. I'm hopeful this will have relatively little disruption. Occupationally is sorta guilds-ish but doesn't solve any problems with cross-occupation crime. Unlike taxes, this is one area where I'm at least a little willing to make a big change because it seems relatively straightforward.

Noooooo more Blackbirds, though. Martial is just too high, I also don't want to spend Mysticism at this juncture. The Wall is stupid. Enforce Law has been a thing I've voted on for at least a couple of the past turns anyway, so this is fine.

Highlands and Thunder Horse are most immediately important, especially with rumors of the TH having jumped over us in acquiring new metal, which is kind of annoying when you think about the issues we had in skipping over stuff straight to Iron. Usually I'm a Salt Gift proponent but keeping the Diplo and Art overflow is important right now.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Diplo] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
what the hell, let's see what that "two for one" trait will get us from the golden aging Xohyssiri!

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the east (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)

DragonParadox said:

They are at best proto-Persia a bronze age disunited civilization with serious fracture lines between the nomad-derived martial elite and the rest of society. One should not overestimate either their administrative reach or stability in the face of crises.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't underestimate the staying power of such combinations. There are quite a few large empires with multi-century lifespans based on a former eurasian steppe nomad invaders controlling, merging with, and eventually supplanting the former locals. The Achaemenid Empire, aka the first 'persian' empire, is the most similar to our proto!persians, but the Parthian Empire, the Kushan Empire, the Ottoman Turks, and the Magyars in Hungary are all fairly similar as well.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Rework clan foundation and dissolution laws to be more adaptive
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

notgreat said:

We have word of god that it isn't immediate (though it is likely quite rapid)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

While that is probably usually true, I suspect it's possible for that 'first opportunity' to potentially be presented immediately, given sufficiently unfortunate circumstances.

That being said, 3 prestige buffer is reasonably safe, and I do find the current state of high martial significantly concerning.

Guile said:

I feel like this push towards Sailing Around or trade missions to the Hathatyn/Metal Workers is a bad idea. Well, not a bad idea, but not as important as keeping our fingers on the pulse of the brewing war between the two largest nations in our area.

That's where the important stuff is going down, not the Hathatyn putting up a new settlement or seeing if the nomad metal workers still hate us yet (I'm pretty sure they do), and especially not sailing around the sea in the hopes of finding something good.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

While yes, the lowlands brawl part 12 is definitely a concern, we do have ontgoing establish trade relationships with the region as it is. We don't have any real idea what is happening on our other borders, however, so we don't know if there is an incipient crisis brewing or not. Off to the north, well, not much we can do about the next plague of nomads, but we have been engaging in low level border conflict on our southwest for more than a generation now. An early warning before that explodes into our provinces would be useful.

Also, there is alot of further shoreline on the western sea we don't know about. It'd be very nice to have early warning before a wave of superior naval hostiles starts showing up from unknown lands. Additionally, with good luck we can find a trading partner who wants to sell us tin because they need our copper, once we figure out the secret to bronze. Some guys on the other side of a sea make a good trading partner for that, since they have a hard time using that bronze to kill you and steal your women, as opposed to closer trading partners.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

As nice and potentially increadibly effective ninja police would be, we are too close to our martial cap.

Have you guys already considered what to do the next turn ?

Given that we opened up another mine I would suggest to [Main] Expand Forest the upcoming turn

But I'm open for other suggestions

veekie said:

We don't have nearly the problem with people listening to the King as with having trails to the new provinces We're still 2 more Trails behind in fact, and have been for a while.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

What makes you so certain that we absolutely need a [Main] trails for every province? We have trails to all the important parts of the provinces, we can just expand and improve the trails more and have trails to all the minor settlements instead of just to the main ones.

Also it's not just people listening, it's also them giving information to the central administration instead of just dealing with whatever comes up locally. Same thing as the pottery issue- the local chief just wanted his pots, and without us increasing centralization by allowing the petitions it would've been dealt with without ever being more than a footnote. Enforce Law makes them more willing to come to the central authority for anything questionable that doesn't need immediate action.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest

Already discussed at length.

[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations

Dissolving clans seems like a bad idea to me in the long run. In a low stability time it could make the cities more insular and could cause splintering of the nation. Someone had said that upping the clans would make them basically gangs. Yes, but there is also something else similar: political parties. I'd rather keep the clans since it acts as an horizontal mean to link our nation and since adoption is basically a non-issue with CA, it could result in interesting cultural developments.

[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)

Gets rid of smuggling and makes it easier for the existing law enforcement to do its job, possibly encouraging better practices. In case of revolts could also serve as a way to control unruly mobs. Then there is the defense bonus.

[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers

Trying to capitalize on the recently freed Metal Workers. Maybe make them our vassals? At the very least would allow the setting up of a Trading post. With the Hathatyn, either we don't need to deal with their shenanigans anymore or we gain a casus belli to crush them.

sidestory said:

Have you guys already considered what to do the next turn ?

Given that we opened up another mine I would suggest to [Main] Expand Forest the upcoming turn

But I'm open for other suggestions

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Some form of stability action. At least a secondary.
A secondary forest will help even if it doesn't give us an actual slot, it makes progress towards one.

Considering the geopolitical and social climate of our neighbors. I think the TH and HK will still be busy attempting to figure out how you have sex in the backseat of a car while also trying to kill your partner. (Yes I'm lewd at this time of night, sue me)

The Hathatyn are probably not going to be overtly hostile in our direction. It's kinda odd their lack of any contact with us except by raids. I think they have centralization problems and can't rein in their raiders effectively/or just don't care. Or maybe they're just shy.

The Nomads who took over the Metal Workers are weakened, the recent shattering and diaspora of western Nomads has probably negatively affected them severely. I am certain we are safe from attacks of any major form from this direction for some time.

Someone might move into the North from the East or the North or deep North West. That could be interesting if it is a case of the return of the Caravan From The East. If not I hope they are curious enough to try trading first. We respond much better to that.

@Academia Nut

A few questions

1. How many Holy sites do the other known nation have?
2. Are they as impressive as ours or more impressive?
3. What is their current opinion on us, like for what are we known/famous for to them?
4. Has our Religion evolved any further and if so how?
5. Have our people some kind of physical (like fair skin from living in the forests, smaller build for our warriors from not eating meat all the day,) or spiritual (like some special prayer or behavior) tellings that sets them obviously apart from others and marks them as our people to our neighbours?

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

Changing my [Law] vote to recruit more peacekeepers. Because I prefer the narrative of building up policing forces instead of buildings walls.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

Shame this isn't magical enough that our Temple can literally be a Tree.

Semi-stupid idea that at least @veekie might be interested in:

We're hurting for a way to spend our centralization, right? There might be a roundabout way to do it if we really need - found a march, then immediately integrate it. Takes two actions, but I'm fairly certain it'd do it.

It would leave us way overextended if we exploited it though, and it'd probably leave space for yet more trails to be needed to be done - I suspect the issue with those is kinda like with walls in that we have to reach a certain saturation of them and maybe certain techs before they just kinda start being build automatically. But it's a thing we could do.

been a while since I had a xantalos-brand sleep-deprived stupid idea

[X] [Temple] Redshore
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Recruit more peacekeepers (Main More Blackbirds)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

sidestory said:

Have you guys already considered what to do the next turn ?

Given that we opened up another mine I would suggest to [Main] Expand Forest the upcoming turn

But I'm open for other suggestions

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Forest is my preference at present, though I'd prefer more Trails, we need that buffer.

notgreat said:

What makes you so certain that we absolutely need a [Main] trails for every province? We have trails to all the important parts of the provinces, we can just expand and improve the trails more and have trails to all the minor settlements instead of just to the main ones.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Take a simple timeliine:
Long Live the King(Transition point of new Centralization calculation and hiding settlement level issues)-> The wanderer's wake(before Northshore):

Academia Nut said:

New Trails - The new coastal settlement is supported mostly by boats and the expansion of the limited trails there would be of great utility
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Insufficient roads.

In Common Turn, we built 1x Main New Trails, but it still did not give us Sufficient Roads yet.
In Family matters we annexed Northshore. Now we are at Insufficient Roads -1.
In The Young Stallion, we created our first March. Now we are at Insufficient Roads -2, and VISIBLY having problms administrating anything now.
In Just like you imagined Stallion Tribes built 1x Secondary Roads, bringing us to Insufficient Roads -1.5
In As the Tides, we created a new province, and the Stallion Tribes built 1x Secondary Roads, bringing us to Insufficient Roads -2.(yeah really, we decided to make the overextension problem even worse while they're trying to help)
In The salt must flow, we added a Main New Trails, bringing us to Insufficient Roads -1, which coupled with boats finally unfucked the Stallion Tribes at last, but the provinces on Expansion Policy created TWO new provinces, bringing us to Insufficient Roads -3, but fortunately these provinces are geographically closer to us and not going to break away.

The description for New Trails at this point:

Academia Nut said:

New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Critical status, our connectivity is dangerously poor.

In too Quiet, we created another two new provinces on Expansion policy. Insufficient Roads -5
In New Connections, we created another new March. Insufficient Roads -6
In Roads towards Wars, we Mained New Trails. Insufficient Roads -5.

You can fudge the math and count Secondaries as equal to Mains, which will give us Insufficient Roads -3 instead, or you can double the impact of all Road building(which would put us at positive and does not match the narration). But the status of New Trails being Marginal for a long time is a pretty big deal.

The thing is, river and coastal trade are cool, but they are no replacement for actual roads for cultural cohesion, on the simple basis of accessibility. Anyone can afford to walk or hitchhike from Valleyhome to Lower Valleyhome, Stonepen or Redshore. Not everyone can get access to room on a boat or even enough berths for boats.
AN had even explicitly stated that more boats will not solve connectivity and cultural drift issues anymore at present.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

veekie said:

[] [Clan] Rework clan foundation and dissolution laws to be more adaptive

This basically goes for a full reform on clan laws.
Noting that the base political unit is the clan head, which votes for chiefs, which vote for higher chiefs.
The ability to create and destroy clans more easily will be more politically adaptable, but also easier to exploit for ill purposes.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Is it just me or does this sound like a step towards early republics?

Because as it is, you can replace Chiefs with Senators and you'd already be fairly close (except that there are multiple layers of separation between the highest instance and the people). But the principle holds.

sidestory said:

2. Are they as impressive as ours or more impressive?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We've only seen the Spirit Talkers directly. It was pretty impressive.
We've also seen peeks of the Xohyssiri sacrificial mounds I think?

5. Have our people some kind of physical (like fair skin from living in the forests, smaller build for our warriors from not eating meat all the day,) or spiritual (like some special prayer or behavior) tellings that sets them obviously apart from others and marks them as our people to our neighbours?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

-Sacred Warding
-- Starpox immunity - Our people have NO pox scars. At all. Our skin is unnaturally smooth and fair.
--Ritual Veal Consumption - Our people have a higher baseline meat and milk consumption only matched by Nomads. As a result, even our farmers are pretty big and swole compared to others, though our warriors aren't too different from theirs.
-Iron tools
--Daily use of metal tools should proliferate that shaving and haircuts are practical and accessible options with the availability of knives exploding. Don't know if they've adopted it yet though.

DakkaMania said:

Is it just me or does this sound like a step towards early republics?

Because as it is, you can replace Chiefs with Senators and you'd already be fairly close (except that there are multiple layers of separation between the highest instance and the people). But the principle holds.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Basically, we're moving that way slowly. We lack the actual social tools to make it work yet though.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

sidestory said:

5. Have our people are some kind of obvious physical (like fair skin from living in the forests, smaller build for our warriors from not eating meat all the day,) or spiritual (like some special prayer or behavior) tellings that sets them obviously apart from others and marks them as our people to our neighbours

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'm not AN but do you mind me taking a stab at this particular question?


As to your first question about what we can do next turn here:

We have to Main Temple of course. So after the climate is considered, the other actions will have to go towards fixing whatever crops up and probably stability. What crops up will probably not be a war related thing since: the War in the South is contained down there, the Metal Nomads are in a bad position I'd expect, the Hathatyn don't seem set on intentionally provoking us, and Nomads from the narrative I can suppose are only just starting to move into the North and the rest of the Dead Zone and we have not noticed because they are too far away to interact with us.

I believe firmly that we need to take some form of secondary stability action. The other secondary though, is free.

We could Study Forest Secondary since it is free. Take a Secondary Survey. Make more trails aimed at West Wall. Secondary Expand Forest is an incremental help. We could send a Trade Mission out Into the Wild. We could go exploring with a Sailing Mission which will help innovate boats. We could build More Boats which will help innovate boats. Build a Vineyard for more luxuries to trade.

Organizing them by my thinking on their necessity:

Expand Forest (we are eating into our cycle of trees for charcoal, overrunning this is a Bad Idea)
-Study Forest (Same general level as Expand because we have only done it once long ago, and there are many interesting things to be found in a forest. The one time we did it we found poison and our Blackbirds spontaneously developed composite bows, though the composite bow was likely not connected)

Sailing Mission (We really should encourage exploration in our people, since with our traits it is seems to me like it would be a simple expression of pure curiosity rather than the prelude to conquest. Finding out more also opens new locations to settle and telling us the advancement of our neighbors around the Western Sea. Also strongly encourages the innovation we have brewing)

More Boats (More innovation chances. Also deters the incidental raiding of the Hathatyn. Creates a nice prep to a Sailing Mission)

West Wall Trails. (We still need this. We also recently got a much nicer innovation so spreading that will help greatly in supporting the Marchers continued punting of Nomads)

Build a Vineyard. (We should do this before the location and idea is forgotten. The extra luxury will be a big help to Diplo, and I am interested to see what a Vineyard encourages in our civ longterm. Kinda a neutral(?) offshoot is that people who were high and or drunk have had some stupid ideas that turned out to be brilliant, but they also were more generally stupid)

Trade Mission. (An overland exploration. Meeting new people is nice and tells us more about what's happening)

Survey. (Not quite needed at the moment. We have many interesting and useful resources currently, but getting a third Iron mine going after we expand forest with two or three more Secondary equivalents is really nice. The possibility of other interesting things is also a lure)


I could be convinced to move something from either Boats or Trails to replace Expand or Study Forest because they are all close enough together in importance in my head.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)

BungieONI said:

Expand Forest (we are eating into our cycle of trees for charcoal, overrunning this is a Bad Idea)
-Study Forest (Same general level as Expand because we have only done it once long ago, and there are many interesting things to be found in a forest. The one time we did it we found poison and our Blackbirds spontaneously developed composite bows, though the composite bow was likely not connected)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Blackbird Expansions seem to usually be linked to Archery upgrades. We got Volley Fire by expanding Blackbirds at the same time as our army. Same as Carrion Eaters tended to expand healthcare as retired carrion eaters made GREAT nurses/orderlies

BungieONI said:

Sailing Mission (We really should encourage exploration in our people, since with our traits it is seems to me like it would be a simple expression of pure curiosity rather than the prelude to conquest. Finding out more also opens new locations to settle and telling us the advancement of our neighbors around the Western Sea. Also strongly encourages the innovation we have brewing)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Probably best left for after we get the next boat tech up personally. Current Dhow ranges are pretty much coast huggy, so even if we find someone, the Metal Nomads or the Hathatyn could blockade trade easily.

BungieONI said:

Build a Vineyard. (We should do this before the location and idea is forgotten. The extra luxury will be a big help to Diplo, and I am interested to see what a Vineyard encourages in our civ longterm. Kinda a neutral(?) offshoot is that people who were high and or drunk have had some stupid ideas that turned out to be brilliant, but they also were more generally stupid)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Hmm, good idea. I'm currently in favor of this next turn:
[Main] Temple
[Secondary] Vineyard
[Secondary] Expand Forest