Not American.
But letting an invader trample over you is always the wrong choice.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Not American.
But letting an invader trample over you is always the wrong choice.
Not if their leaders are clever, and they are.
They are fleeing.
Would they leave corpses...
Ensuring that they will be hunted till the end...
Or living slaves, that will slow down their hunters who would have to care for traumatized civilians?
Exactly my vote.
I don't think Offensive is worth doing, even with Martial king, so long he's not heroic.
The problem with Defensive is the stability loss means we have no good options. (Well, that and it's massively far behind in vote count, but ignoring that)
Play around with it in the program. We can do:
['KingYes', 'OrderNo', 'Defensive']
for 90% chance of -2 stability, or
['KingYes', 'OrderYes', 'Defensive']
which has that 7% chance of death that people don't like.
If we do KingNo, then we end up dead with extremely high probability.
Both options leave us with 1 Legitimacy and a war-oriented leader without a war to fight. If we had a bit more stability it'd be ok, but as we are, going to war and boosting it as much as possible is almost certainly better than needing half those boosts anyway and still ending up in a bad situation.
Huh? I'm saying literally the opposite once again. That we should care about game mechanics, and people are doing so. That stats and game mechanics are important, and the vast majority of voters care about them.
Perhaps you need to go back and check how the argument started? I was arguing against the "You're the only one who really cares about stats" assertion.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
which is why you fight them off...? Like we did...?
The questions now are we're willing to pursue a sunk cost, what the likelihood of catching them is, and what the return from catching them will be.
Hmm, I rather prepare and build up army, and striking when we have the best conditions.
Ie: Raise a huge army, on Defensive ground, with good tools (better horses) to outflank them and prevent retreat.
...
And writing our people they currently kidnapped off.
Yeah, no.
In which case, I say, write off the army chasing the nomads into the steppes. I don't expect any good to come from that.
Have you actually read what AN has written or are you just trolling?
He said that it is all but impossible for us to suffer another attack were we to choose weapons.
This would mean that the army we would send had to be victorious or at the very least drive the nomads off with near guarantee.
It is the same argumentation in bad faith as you tried to convince people that choosing the weapon option would not help our rescue army, after argumenting a couple of posts before that the nomads would get metal weapons were we to choose thus option.
One or the other, please.
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The nomads were unified under a king with a single Star Axe, a weapon of such potency that we're still hearing about it hundreds of years later.
We now have a chance to outfit a significant portion of our army with weapons of that very same type. If you don't think that plus a king at least halfway to heroic in Martial is enough, I don't know what I could say to convince you.
Legitimacy 1 is bad, but Stability -2 is so much worse, and the only way to prevent that without risking death is to go all-in on killing the nomads. Which, luckily, we have a perfect opportunity to do so by grabbing Iron Weapons and a Good (or higher) Martial king.
For the nomads, those are property not people. Its much faster to dump them off the chariot without slowing or shank them and keep going. Corpses in motion trip up horses real good. They can't even jump them with that war cart pulled behind.
I don't think you realize they don't care what we think. They'll be scattered to the winds or The People are just wasting resources.
The People's morality is alien to them. Basically, every other target would give up after a certain distance. They aren't worth the effort to chance down. Raiding is a normal fact of life for every other culture. Wife taking is normal. Being an @#%@%& is normal.
And you do not realize what chasing an army is.
Not one of the prisoners are on a chariot, they are not built or that.
It is a huge ass column, with carts and a lot of people just walking.
We are not talking about days, but weeks of chase.
And you are also wrong.
Nomads do care about family, due to their values, they would try to save their relatives.
Our reaction will be seen as extreme, but not alien.
In summary:
1) I'm confused why people want Stability -2 Legitimacy 3 instead of Stability 1 Legitimacy 1.
2) I'm confused why people want to send our current army into the Steppes without any bonuses, placing a significant amount of our remaining Martial on the line of a dice roll with no bonuses versus two heroes.
Our economy will still be at 1 if we get Weapons. With Weapons and a strong Martial leader, we can rescue our people and kill the nomads.
With neither, our warriors will likely be sent to their death, and we've got a bunch of awesome tools. Yay.
With the old king we'll have a solid 3 maximum stability... and -2 actual stability.
1) I'm confused why people want Stability -2 Legitimacy 3 instead of Stability 1 Legitimacy 1.
2) I'm confused why people want to send our current army into the Steppes without any bonuses, placing a significant amount of our remaining Martial on the line of a dice roll with no bonuses versus two heroes.
Our economy will still be at 1 if we get Weapons. With Weapons and a strong Martial leader, we can rescue our people and kill the nomads.
With neither, our warriors will likely be sent to their death, and we've got a bunch of awesome tools. Yay.
With the old king we'll have a solid 3 maximum stability... and -2 actual stability.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
[X] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)
[x] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
We need to rebuild martial as well as econ, and it's best for this half turn.
So far as Restore Order goes, its failure seems to be less admin roll and more narrative. And I'm not willing to risk that much on speculation on narrative.
[x] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
We need to rebuild martial as well as econ, and it's best for this half turn.
So far as Restore Order goes, its failure seems to be less admin roll and more narrative. And I'm not willing to risk that much on speculation on narrative.
Funny thing though... it would all go much faster with as few of those people walking as possible. A column goes exactly as fast as the slowest elements
True... pity those new slaves are property and not family. If anything is going to slow the column its that excess property. For the good of the family mere property goes first, so that the relatives can live.
Leaving talking property behind means leaving an intelligence trail behind. Its easier to connect the dots when the dots explain the puzzle to you.
So, it's all a wash, then. Walking and talking property slow the Ymrri down yet provide intelligence so that they can chase you down. Dead property just make the Ymrri chase you harder.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
The canonical work on the Danegeld isn't American in origin.
It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: --
"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"
To call upon a neighbour and to say: --
"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"
The canonical work on the Danegeld isn't American in origin.
It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: --
"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"
This.
So much this.
I hate most poetry.
I love Kipling.
This here is an important decision.
Let's show what we think about paying Dane-geld.
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Fucking nomads 
At least we killed a ton of them, but they did a load of damage.[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
We aren't a martial people and we need econ far more at the moment and I think tools is better for us as a people. It's also clear some of the iron will go to outfitting our warriors. This knocks us up to 7 martial, plus the 6 from the Stallions = 13 for the Offensive. No Restore Order since I don't want even a tiny chance of our civ imploding, and no to switching King's since it's a dangerous precedent in times of crisis.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Part of why I want martial is because the nomads aren't our only threat. TH and TS are mostly unblooded and interested in expansion our way. We need army more than we need two year's supply of grain in our stockpiles.
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
We aren't a martial people and we need econ far more at the moment and I think tools is better for us as a people. It's also clear some of the iron will go to outfitting our warriors. This knocks us up to 7 martial, plus the 6 from the Stallions = 13 for the Offensive. No Restore Order since I don't want even a tiny chance of our civ imploding, and no to switching King's since it's a dangerous precedent in times of crisis.
We are certainly a martial people. Three of our traits are "Honourable Death", "Honour of Elites", and "Lord's Loyalty".
Just because the People despise warfare doesn't mean that the people don't have a martial culture.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
@Academia Nut , roughly speaking, what would have happened if we'd went defense policy and sent one secondary war mission?
- Location
- his hidden lair
[X] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
Because going tools is fucking batshit insane. You guys want to send our entire army out on an incredibly perilous campaign they might now want to return from, all while withholding the best wargear in the world for them- because the economy. The fertile, vibrant economy producing goods that are literally priceless right now. The economy that is near utterly defenseless right now and sits close to a neighbor who's waiting for an opportunity to push our shit in.
So, in summary- send off the veterans of our war poorly equipped with poor morale (because they could have gone to war clad in god metal if there king wasn't a dipshit. Even if said half-assed army wins, it'll be incredibly worn down and will then be obligated to protect an economy from everyone led.
Don't be a moron, don't assume the Nomads are the only threat, don't assume we'll get time to rebuild a military, don't assume spurning one's crusaders will go over fine, don't assume anything less than a decisive victory is fine here- because all you're doing is making asses out of you and me.
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
Because going tools is fucking batshit insane. You guys want to send our entire army out on an incredibly perilous campaign they might now want to return from, all while withholding the best wargear in the world for them- because the economy. The fertile, vibrant economy producing goods that are literally priceless right now. The economy that is near utterly defenseless right now and sits close to a neighbor who's waiting for an opportunity to push our shit in.
So, in summary- send off the veterans of our war poorly equipped with poor morale (because they could have gone to war clad in god metal if there king wasn't a dipshit. Even if said half-assed army wins, it'll be incredibly worn down and will then be obligated to protect an economy from everyone led.
Don't be a moron, don't assume the Nomads are the only threat, don't assume we'll get time to rebuild a military, don't assume spurning one's crusaders will go over fine, don't assume anything less than a decisive victory is fine here- because all you're doing is making asses out of you and me.