Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
K Sara
- Location
- United States
Ok, the narrative mish-mash is pretty much Study Health for the brain damaged guy, study stars, along with maybe some econ building. This isn't something I like so whatever.
[Main] Proclaim Glory
This is the thing I think we should really do, as the loss in legitimacy still hasn't unlocked our stability boosters.
[Main] Proclaim Glory will give us back our stability boosting options, which we'll need if there's a comet. If there isn't then we have a nice extra stability for the Iron mine.
I suggest we do 2 forest expansions in the stallion tribes, as the forests only slightly slow down nomad raids (which are common regardless of the possibly dead hero).
If not forest expansion, then a double secondary study metal will probably remove the superstition (the stability drop is solved by the PG).
[Main] Proclaim Glory
This is the thing I think we should really do, as the loss in legitimacy still hasn't unlocked our stability boosters.
[Main] Proclaim Glory will give us back our stability boosting options, which we'll need if there's a comet. If there isn't then we have a nice extra stability for the Iron mine.
I suggest we do 2 forest expansions in the stallion tribes, as the forests only slightly slow down nomad raids (which are common regardless of the possibly dead hero).
If not forest expansion, then a double secondary study metal will probably remove the superstition (the stability drop is solved by the PG).
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- Location
- his hidden lair
Except do you think every shaman will agree this is hogwash? Because all it takes is a minority airing the prophecy to the public (and likely mangleing it and making it even more vague in the process) and it'll become an issue.
Because it helps explain why bad things happen. Why the fire that killed your family happened, why you had a poor harvest this year, why your cousin tripped along a path and broke his neck falling down a hill. Because to them, it provides answers, closure, understanding. The fact that these are wrong is utterly immaterial in the scheme of things.
As for irony, it doesn't matter that the prophecy is wrong or right. What matters is the populace's perception of it, and your inability to consider their perspective is brought about by the fact you fundamentally dismiss it as false, and in doing so fail to understand that by the Ymaryn understanding of the way the world works- this is almost certainly spirits communicating through this man.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hey @Academia Nut were our Improve Festival and Grand Sacrifice supposed to be locked last turn? Are they going to be locked next turn?
Sorry to ask this again so soon but this is important to clarify and compare voting plans.
Sorry to ask this again so soon but this is important to clarify and compare voting plans.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
That doesn't offer any reason to willingly create prophets and oracles?
We have not had oracles for a literal century before, why do we need it now?
They obviously had some method of rationalizing why things happened they do not need false prophets.
The thing is, Their perception doesn't matter because we can ignore it as the ramblings of an injured man ICly, as the update says.
Well, a spirit can lie, no? Letting a demon out...Improper care, let a demon in who speaks false prophecy. Who the hell knows how the Ymaryn will interpret this.
I think it's more important that we have iron than we have forests.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
It is entirely material in the scheme of things. It can lead to things being burned, people being murdered, and dirt being thought of as a way to cleanse wounds.
@Kiba Agree + Don't. Forests in the north lead to protection so that we can spend more effort on iron. But of course, iron leads to tools so that we can more efficiently create forests. It just depends on urgency. What we learn from the MW will affect the priority.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
The whole need for understanding is what leads to Grand Sacrificing meaning anything at all, since WE know that their just burning a bunch of shit for no reason except to make themselves feel better
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
It's neither neolithic nor truly prehistoric.
@Ghostdevil Exactly, ish... we had a "good" result i.e. one where people think burning things does anything except cause catharsis. Had we been more focused on the true reason for increased stability we could instead start doing plays, which at the very least are constructive rather than destructive, for all that this destruction has a good in that it equalizes our society.
Overall, superstition is bad. Prophecy leads to either failure or superstition. Superstition leads to potentially good rituals but likely bad ones. So prophecy is on average undesirable.
Things should not be left to chance.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Words. I hope the thread catches my meaning of our thought vs Ymaryn knowledge context.
So you'd rather us not have Grand Sacrifice? Because that action's pretty much 100% superstition, but it's a pretty awesome action that we're very happy to have.
edit: Plays and theater wouldn't help anywhere near as much. Bread and Circuses is nice, but GS gives our people the knowledge that we're doing something to help.
Even if it doesn't actually help, they believe it does and that makes it worth it.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Did I say that? No, I didn't. Shockingly.
Edit: I'd rather we have plays instead, though.
Edit 2: It gives our people the belief that we're helping through sacrificing to the spirits. We could as easily be putting on plays dedicated to the spirits in order to have that belief.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Ignoring has a pretty big lead,
Good, very good
I can feel the Skepticism flowing through me!
Good, very good
I can feel the Skepticism flowing through me!
- Location
- United States
Uh, given that Grand Sacrifice has been unavailable since we got Iron...our legitimacy being 2 is preventing us from using Grand Sacrifice.
Just so that we can have confirmation:
@Academia Nut Is our legitimacy being 2 preventing us from using stability boosters like Grand Sacrifice and Restore Order?
Just so that we can have confirmation:
@Academia Nut Is our legitimacy being 2 preventing us from using stability boosters like Grand Sacrifice and Restore Order?
Okay, with things settling down a little, lemme go do a non-persuasion analysis of the 'prophecy'.
First, start with what he could mean, based on the experience and reference pools of a Chariot Driver:
-Illiterate - Not from a literate caste, no knowledge of reading or writing beyond the symbols relating to his work. So he's probably number literate and knows the symbols for grain, spears, chariots, etc to take care of his ride.
--This means we can assume he has no access to astronomical knowledge outside of common superstitions.
-Chariot Warrior(elite) - This means he is unlikely but not impossible to have parents and family working with other trades.
--This means we can predict that he has no access to metalworking knowledge outside of commonly available knowedge(i.e. the physical appearance of copper and iron is publically available, and that fire and colored rocks are involved)
--This means that he will have a belief pool based on Shamans and Commoners rather than Chiefs and Clerks.
---To further elaborate, social stratification means the beliefs of the hereditary and elite classes will diverge, as elites will be educated and trained by past elites, which will give them more conservative and traditional views compared to the more in flux views of those castes open to the public:
----Conservatives: Administrators(clerks), Leaders(chiefs), Merchants, Warriors(Chariot archers, charioteers, Infantry/Archers)
----Flux: Shamans(while specially trained, they are drawn from commoners backgrounds in their teens, meaning core values are already cemented), Farmers, Artisans, Miners, Warriors(Blackbirds, Carrion Eaters, Militia, Infantry/Archers)
The 'prophecy' again: "Black mirror sun spear ash bleeding vein return sky streak."
So what he probably meant with the context of his background and beliefs:
-The shiny black spear made from the weapons of the gods will cause the comet to return.
What it can be interpeted as is...much more varied.
First, start with what he could mean, based on the experience and reference pools of a Chariot Driver:
-Illiterate - Not from a literate caste, no knowledge of reading or writing beyond the symbols relating to his work. So he's probably number literate and knows the symbols for grain, spears, chariots, etc to take care of his ride.
--This means we can assume he has no access to astronomical knowledge outside of common superstitions.
-Chariot Warrior(elite) - This means he is unlikely but not impossible to have parents and family working with other trades.
--This means we can predict that he has no access to metalworking knowledge outside of commonly available knowedge(i.e. the physical appearance of copper and iron is publically available, and that fire and colored rocks are involved)
--This means that he will have a belief pool based on Shamans and Commoners rather than Chiefs and Clerks.
---To further elaborate, social stratification means the beliefs of the hereditary and elite classes will diverge, as elites will be educated and trained by past elites, which will give them more conservative and traditional views compared to the more in flux views of those castes open to the public:
----Conservatives: Administrators(clerks), Leaders(chiefs), Merchants, Warriors(Chariot archers, charioteers, Infantry/Archers)
----Flux: Shamans(while specially trained, they are drawn from commoners backgrounds in their teens, meaning core values are already cemented), Farmers, Artisans, Miners, Warriors(Blackbirds, Carrion Eaters, Militia, Infantry/Archers)
The 'prophecy' again: "Black mirror sun spear ash bleeding vein return sky streak."
So what he probably meant with the context of his background and beliefs:
-The shiny black spear made from the weapons of the gods will cause the comet to return.
What it can be interpeted as is...much more varied.
Here we go again, with what we know instead of what our shamans know.
I have to admit, at this point I think it'd be hilarious if @Academia Nut created this setting with a magic system that would never be found or followed up on by someone determined to follow real-world understandings of physical law (as opposed to real-world testing of hypotheses).
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
well?
haven't found an artist yet, but itll be good to have a description ready
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Uhh what do you mean here?
This guy isn't a shaman so what veekie says is correct
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Black mirror sun
eclipse
spear ash
weapons and fire
bleeding vein
blood from war
return sky streak
might be comet, but streak could be the rays from the eclipse spreading across the sky.
Tbh, though, you could just associate all of it w/ what someone falling from their carriage would see.
I don't think Merchants would be conservative, they interact with varied people too much to not be affected.
Infantry = militia. Archers are probably somewhat/fully open to the public, at the very least in that hunters exist as a separate group like to blend w/ the martial archers and bows are cheaper to make or acquire than a carriage and pony would be.
eclipse
spear ash
weapons and fire
bleeding vein
blood from war
return sky streak
might be comet, but streak could be the rays from the eclipse spreading across the sky.
Tbh, though, you could just associate all of it w/ what someone falling from their carriage would see.
I don't think Merchants would be conservative, they interact with varied people too much to not be affected.
Infantry = militia. Archers are probably somewhat/fully open to the public, at the very least in that hunters exist as a separate group like to blend w/ the martial archers and bows are cheaper to make or acquire than a carriage and pony would be.
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I feel like people forget, or ignore, that the Ymaryn are a copper age culture, that while pretty advanced in some respects, is still very primitive. Spirits exist and are clearly real to them. If you ask an Ymaryn why the crops were bountiful this year, they'll reply that the spirits of the earth were happy. If there is a drought and the crops fail, the response will be that the spirits were angry or demons were at fault. They understand illness and injury in terms of demons possessing the body through a wound, or by poison spells and curses. This type of belief isn't going to change for many centuries, since to the People this is how the world works.
What I'm worried about with this current vote, is the People will Observe that a man has been potentially touched by the spirits and the leaders dismissed it. Then an event comes along, doesn't even have to be the comet it just has to be similar to his ramblings, and we'll take a hit for ignoring the spirits. I'd also point out that by ignoring, we're actually going against Observance, because we're ignoring what he's saying instead of investigating in some fashion.
What I'm worried about with this current vote, is the People will Observe that a man has been potentially touched by the spirits and the leaders dismissed it. Then an event comes along, doesn't even have to be the comet it just has to be similar to his ramblings, and we'll take a hit for ignoring the spirits. I'd also point out that by ignoring, we're actually going against Observance, because we're ignoring what he's saying instead of investigating in some fashion.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Y'all always say copper age as if we didn't attribute plentiful harvests to God 400 years ago. Just say pre-rationalist or something.
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