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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
Right, ok, I've finished reading through the thread now.

I'm not gonna even bother arguing for this vote, but damnnit people, you're not thinking things through.

Rushing a megaproject is awesome, but it means we have no safety net in available actions. Next turn is now forced to be
1) Megaproject
2) New province

So yeah, not much to say. Not sure which project is better, but we need to expand ASAP. We're out of econ slots, and we're missing out on free actions.

Luckily the megaproject will give stability and we're doing solid on stability with these choices so it's not all that bad.
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Exactly what kind of safety net do you speak of? The baby boom by all acounts should have ended 2 turns ago yet it is still going so banking on it continuing is unrealistic. In terms of stab the winning vote has us at stab 0 if we do a mega project we will be at stab 1 so I fail to see the problem
 
notgreat said:
Right, ok, I've finished reading through the thread now.

I'm not gonna even bother arguing for this vote, but damnit people, you're not thinking things through.

Rushing a megaproject is awesome, but it means we have no safety net in available actions. Next turn is now forced to be
1) Megaproject
2) New province

So yeah, not much to say. Not sure which project is better, but we need to expand ASAP. We're out of econ slots, and we're missing out on free actions.

Luckily the megaproject will give stability and we're doing solid on stability with these choices so it's not all that bad.
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Currently all our neighbors are in chaos (except the metal workers and northern nomads...but they're taken care of by the Marches), so there is no immediate threat of war.

We are currently sitting pretty on 5 econ with 2 more on the way, not including the passive econ actions and the baby boom.

If we see the need to expand (which we may or may not depending on our neighbors development next turn), then we'll use our secondaries to expand a new providence in the southern shore. Our policy of mega projects means we trigger Law and symphony so the mega project will be finished even faster than normal.

There isn't much issue here, honestly.

Edit: even if we only have 1 more turn of the baby boom, that's still 3 extra econ.
 
Reader of all said:
Exactly what kind of safety net do you speak of? The baby boom by all acounts should have ended 2 turns ago yet it is still going so banking on it continuing is unrealistic. In terms of stab the winning vote has us at stab 0 if we do a mega project we will be at stab 1 so I fail to see the problem
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'Safety net' as in if we went with Expansion, we'd just need to take the Megaproject and have 2 slots available to take any shinies or patch any problems or deal with raiders or whatever. We'd get near-guaranteed 2x New Province, and take the megaproject manually.
With this, our provinces will likely do 3x megaproject (for 2 progress thanks to The Law). We still need to manually start the megaproject, and we must take the settlement or else we just flat run out of space and the Baby Boom ends.

hylas240 said:
We are currently sitting pretty on 5 econ with 2 more on the way, not including the passive econ actions and the baby boom.
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The problem is that we're almost out of econ slots, not econ. Our econ is just fine.
Last turn we had 7 slots. One province did Expand Economy, 6 remain.
We unexpectedly have 3 more econ (we were at 4, spent 3 this turn, were expecting to be at 2), probably from the Baby Boom. 3 remain. We're taking 2 econ of refugees, 1 remain.

Hilariously, our high econ is actually part of the problem since it means provinces won't make New Settlements since they'll be able to directly support the megaproject instead. We need good admin rolls either way, but getting 2 new settlements/provinces makes it a lot more likely that we'll get at least one of them before the Baby Boom sees a lack of room and dies. If we took Expansion we'd even be able to do 3 at once, making it extremely likely that the Baby Boom continues (though we'd probably only want 2 provinces, going -3 Centralization is a bit too much)
 
notgreat said:
'Safety net' as in if we went with Expansion, we'd just need to take the Megaproject and have 2 slots available to take any shinies or patch any problems or deal with raiders or whatever. We'd get near-guaranteed 2x New Province, and take the megaproject manually.
With this, our provinces will likely do 3x megaproject (for 2 progress thanks to The Law). We still need to manually start the megaproject, and we must take the settlement or else we just flat run out of space and the Baby Boom ends.


The problem is that we're almost out of econ slots, not econ. Our econ is just fine.
Last turn we had 7 slots. One province did Expand Economy, 6 remain.
We unexpectedly have 3 more econ (we were at 4, spent 3 this turn, were expecting to be at 2), probably from the Baby Boom. 3 remain. We're taking 2 econ of refugees, 1 remain.

Hilariously, our high econ is actually part of the problem since it means provinces won't make New Settlements since they'll be able to directly support the megaproject instead. We need good admin rolls either way, but getting 2 new settlements/provinces makes it a lot more likely that we'll get at least one of them before the Baby Boom sees a lack of room and dies. If we took Expansion we'd even be able to do 3 at once, making it extremely likely that the Baby Boom continues (though we'd probably only want 2 provinces, going -3 Centralization is a bit too much)
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AN has hinted that the baby boom isn't going to continue much longer, so we shouldn't be depending too much on it continuing more than 1-2 turns.

Academia Nut said:
It's still going, although there may be issues in the nearish future.
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hylas240 said:
AN has hinted that the baby boom isn't going to continue much longer, so we shouldn't be depending too much on it continuing more than 1-2 turns.
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It's quite probable that the "issues in the nearish future" is us running out of space to support it.

But yeah, I wasn't expecting it to last this long, it's probably going away soon either way. But if we can get even one more trigger out of it, that's 3 free econ AKA 3 free actions- basically +40% of an entire turn. (we get 8 actions per turn, 7 actions before The Law.)
 
Athanor said:
I assume you are referring to what the nomads did with the war carts. This is not the same situation, they took the tech from their enemies, and their pride and hatred of us could not accept that so they created a tale more easy on their ego. We will be giving this information to our neighbors, that will generate gratitude and make the tale far less likely having us as the bad guys. It will give us the reputation of having wisdom and great skill at healing and if we maintain it we will be looked favorably upon by our neighbors.
There will of course be those who might create such a tale, the northern nomads very lifestyle leaves them with mainly oral storytelling as history keeping and their culture values martial prowess rather than mysticism and record keeping, while the DP are distant and might not appreciate the word of our shamans prowess spreading through their lands, but both of those are minor concerns. The HK's proximity and settled way of life gives them better record keeping and cultural memory, and while not as settled in as us or the HK, the TH and we have several points of cooperation through our history.
Will our heroics be twisted, eventually yes, we are in the cooper age and things will inevitably be lost and twisted. But it will give us a reputation and be remembered for many generations not just a few.
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No, I'm talking about general human nature and parochial pride. Sure the kings and priests might remember the truths but the illiterate peasants (most of their population) not a chance.
 
notgreat said:
It's quite probable that the "issues in the nearish future" is us running out of space to support it.

But yeah, I wasn't expecting it to last this long, it's probably going away soon either way. But if we can get even one more trigger out of it, that's 3 free econ AKA 3 free actions- basically +40% of an entire turn. (we get 8 actions per turn, 7 actions before The Law.)
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Since we have 4 slots (-2 from refugees), we'll get a minimum of 1 trigger. Next turn if we don't bring those number back up it'll likely have the boom grab the last slot and halt.
 
[X] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Expansion

I'd rather us jump start the expansion surge that civilizations throughout history experienced once they reached a certain level of population density and technology. We're already there. We have technology that enables us to make war on aggressors and defend our self from raids, we have technology that enables us to limit deaths from childhood mortality, we have technologies and particularly the Law that helps administrating, and we have cultural and diplomatic influence to hold it all together. Expansion helps us as each new province unlocks more secondary actions, which means those actions can themselves do more, and given the increase in population it'll also increase hero generation.

Taking the whole lowlands costs us 3 stability but it can be mitigated via greater good, and the following diplomatic option. The reason I'm taking it is because this is the most likely way we can kick of a merger between The Greater Good and Land of Opportunity that was previously offered. This can be invaluable long term given it's likely to help mitigating the stability hits we receive.

I also see synergy with the diplomatic option given both of them combined greatly assert our cultural and spiritual dominance as a regional hegemony. We're where people come to in times of trouble, and being able to understand and wield such magic to fight the demons of plague is incredibly note worthy. We're also the polity most likely to have access to honey and salt needed to counter it, thus improving the value of our own trade goods.
 
Neptune said:
[X] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Expansion

I'd rather us jump start the expansion surge that civilizations throughout history experienced once they reached a certain level of population density and technology. We're already there. We have technology that enables us to make war on aggressors and defend our self from raids, we have technology that enables us to limit deaths from childhood mortality, we have technologies and particularly the Law that helps administrating, and we have cultural and diplomatic influence to hold it all together. Expansion helps us as each new province unlocks more secondary actions, which means those actions can themselves do more, and given the increase in population it'll also increase hero generation.

Taking the whole lowlands costs us 3 stability but it can be mitigated via greater good, and the following diplomatic option. The reason I'm taking it is because this is the most likely way we can kick of a merger between The Greater Good and Land of Opportunity that was previously offered. This can be invaluable long term given it's likely to help mitigating the stability hits we receive.

I also see synergy with the diplomatic option given both of them combined greatly assert our cultural and spiritual dominance as a regional hegemony. We're where people come to in times of trouble, and being able to understand and wield such magic to fight the demons of plague is incredibly note worthy. We're also the polity most likely to have access to honey and salt needed to counter it, thus improving the value of our own trade goods.
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We cannot take and hold the whole lowlands as we do not have the administrative reach. All it would do is open up a permanent front bereft of most of our defensive advantages.
 
hylas240 said:
Since we have 4 slots (-2 from refugees), we'll get a minimum of 1 trigger. Next turn if we don't bring those number back up it'll likely have the boom grab the last slot and halt.
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notgreat said:
Last turn we had 7 slots. One province did Expand Economy, 6 remain.
We unexpectedly have 3 more econ (we were at 4, spent 3 this turn, were expecting to be at 2), probably from the Baby Boom. 3 remain. We're taking 2 econ of refugees, 1 remain.
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We might only have 1. We'll have to see.
DragonParadox said:
We cannot take and hold the whole lowlands
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He means "take everyone we can from the lowlands". Not actually claim the land, we don't even want it. The ST were right, it's cursed.
 
notgreat said:
He means "take everyone we can from the lowlands". Not actually claim the land, we don't even want it. The ST were right, it's cursed.
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Ah... OK that runs the risk of the People being assimilated by the massive refugee wave instead of the other way around. We already know the places with the most refugee absorption are also the ones were the justice system is being warped.
 
DragonParadox said:
No, I'm talking about general human nature and parochial pride. Sure the kings and priests might remember the truths but the illiterate peasants (most of their population) not a chance.
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Remember when the Spirit Talkers got started, they did a few impressive things and it brought them tribute and subjects. They used that to jumpstart their civ and i think that we use this to boost us quite a bit in a similar manner. By becoming the center of healing and mysticism of the region we can get tribute, offerings and advantages in negotiations.
And the truth don't matter, those peasants might weave a story where our people and theirs cooperated to avert the diseases, or a great chief bartered the knowledge from us. In any case our reputation as healer and mystics will spread, as even if they twist the tale it will be a long time before they forget it was we who had the knowledge first (depending on which civ of course), especially if we continue to show our skill and help our neighbors.
 
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)

I want to do this and see if we can diploannex ourselves a new territory in the confusion.
 
AN said that our polity is only six figures in population size.

This article said that a city such as Uruk contains 50,000 people alone. If we assume that the Ymrri is a quarter of a million, that still mean that Uruk can contain 20% of the Ymrri population.
 
Athanor said:
Remember when the Spirit Talkers got started, they did a few impressive things and it brought them tribute and subjects. They used that to jumpstart their civ and i think that we use this to boost us quite a bit in a similar manner. By becoming the center of healing and mysticism of the region we can get tribute, offerings and advantages in negotiations.
And the truth don't matter, those peasants might weave a story where our people and theirs cooperated to avert the diseases, or a great chief bartered the knowledge from us. In any case our reputation as healer and mystics will spread, as even if they twist the tale it will be a long time before they forget it was we who had the knowledge first (depending on which civ of course), especially if we continue to show our skill and help our neighbors.
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The thing is as soon as we have our next war with any given group, and lowlanders being lowlanders that is going to happen eventually, the story will shift to make us the sorcerers who got tricked (or some variation on that theme). Once that story appears in the general consciousnesses it will eclipse the truth simply because it is more palpable.
 
veekie said:
--Accept Salt potion. They can make it themselves, and salted water alone helps substantially with relieving anything that makes you sweat, shit or piss.
--Maybe Honey potion. Not sure if this is a scam, because the main source of Honey is the guy saying this is a magic potion.
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You do know the salt and Honey go into the same potion right?

veekie said:
Whoever they talk to will just carry the important lesson of not pissing where you are drinking. But they might decide that this will be a way to poison the shit out of the Dead Priests so the bastards shit themselves to death.
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You do know this would give us the mother of all cause bali right?
 
[X] There is a war going on too you know (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
[x] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[x] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

This will help so many people! To do such a great amount of good is holy. It'll improve our reputation greatly and will likely develop our Honour trait. @veekie, if you want -1 Stability this turn, this gets us it. We're at 0 Stability, we get -3 from the refugees, +1 from sharing, and +1 from the megaproject. That's 0-3+1+1=-1.

@zamin, considering the events of last turn, this would be a good time for an analysis post.
 
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
Inserted Tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on May 5, 2017 at 7:15 AM, finished with 488 posts and 94 votes.
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Andres110 said:
[x] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[x] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

This will help so many people! To do such a great amount of good is holy. It'll improve our reputation greatly and will likely develop our Honour trait. @veekie, if you want -1 Stability this turn, this gets us it. We're at 0 Stability, we get -3 from the refugees, +1 from sharing, and +1 from the megaproject. That's 0-3+1+1=-1.

@zamin, considering the events of last turn, this would be a good time for an analysis post.
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It is also doing a great deal of damage do the fabric of our society... Honestly I would not be surprised if this was the catalyst to losing existing values.
 
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DragonParadox said:
It is also doing a great deal of damage do the fabric of our society... Honestly I would not be surprised if this was the catalyst to losing existing values.
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Yes, despite our high centralization and, now, centralized law, divergences between the provinces are surprisingly high, as stated by AN.
I am glad that we did allow appeal before the King, otherwise the situation would have been significantly worse, I imagine.
We will have to deal with it still.

And the march is at the center of the disharmony, as expected.
 
Andres110 said:
[x] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[x] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

This will help so many people! To do such a great amount of good is holy. It'll improve our reputation greatly and will likely develop our Honour trait. @veekie, if you want -1 Stability this turn, this gets us it. We're at 0 Stability, we get -3 from the refugees, +1 from sharing, and +1 from the megaproject. That's 0-3+1+1=-1.

@zamin, considering the events of last turn, this would be a good time for an analysis post.
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It'll leave us at -2 stability for the next turn, meaning we can't kick the mega project (which also means we'll be stuck at -2 stability unless we take an action to fix it).
 
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