Paths of Civilization

veekie · May 5, 2017

Okay, why ARE people all going for the massive refugee influx to end our baby boom? We can complete the Garden with the smallest influx as is. In one turn potentially.

Secondly Stability -1 is a good end state here. It unlocks Restore Order, allowing us to do this:
[Main] The Gardens (Stability +1)
[Secondary] Restore Order
[Secondary] Restore Order x2(Stability +1-2)

[Province Law] The Gardens
[Province] The Gardens
[Province] The Gardens x2

Which gives us 3 actions of progress, with a chance of instant completion. Which puts us at Stability 2 next turn easily. One celebratory festival after the Gardens from 3.

bluefur87 said:
Ooo, I forgot about the baby boom... Still, I want to share this for the explicit reason of getting people to culture convert to us.
I might be talked out of anymore than bare minimum refugees though.

As has just been pointed out, we have a baby boom. The Gardens will also return econ due to divine stewards. We can likely build the Gardens in one turn and then have enough to build the Saltern the following one.

That's the idea yes. Gardens itself boosts economy from it's description. Then boosts it again from Stewards. Which should generate enough Economy to do Saltern immediately afterwards.

Academia Nut said:
Wow... under the category of terrible ideas... just... wow, that...

Normally the People don't have offensive casus belli, but holy shit, they would be able to kick an offensive war they would be that fucking ripshit mad if they found out. That violates basically all their values.

I think that would be very fun to see. Triggered.

"Okay, the curse seems to spread through water, keep anyone infected and their waste away from drinking water, and here is a recipe for a potion that can really help."

Okay, important things here:
-Cholera spreading through water is important to teach friendly neighbors, because while we're currently upstream of everyone, we won't always be so. It can affect us.
-The hydration formula requires resources few people will have access to unless they already trade with us.

Academia Nut said:
Well, only in that you'll manage to somehow make salt even more valuable and if you have the saltern you would be able to take advantage of that.

That's certainly a nice plus. Not critical, but nice.

Abby Normal said:
...I'm not sure what that has to do with my points, though?

Also, everyone's been so distracted with chalcolithic jon snow that i haven't seen anyone mention this, but am i right in thinking that this is an iron deposit? And that finding iron deposits was one of hte main early issues with ironworking?

Yes, sedimentary iron. We identified it as an iron oxide and we also identified iron oxides in copper ore(pyrites)

Citino said:
Wait...

Holy shit, does anyone else even have honey? We're the only forest dwellers, so...

Yes. We're the primary source for honey as far as I know. It takes extensive forests, and it's dangerous to range forests due to wild animals on top of bees. We can ramp up production by encouraging hives if we do that.

Academia Nut said:
Despite the tax snafu, you still have the finest taxmen in the known world. Your priests are considered odd in that most of them are very practical people, even if they also study esoteric subjects. Your shamans are less mysterious and more approachable, although they also maintain a very tight grip on anything they legitimately consider dangerous.

@Academia Nut

What's the difference between Priest and Shaman here?

pblur said:
Why Garden? Saltern seems to have better synergy and bonuses, and was even hinted at as a really good option by AN before the last update.

Gardens generates Economy boost in itself, another boost from Stewards triggering, which combined with the Baby Boom, allows us to immediately start the Saltern after.

Academia Nut said:
Both the saltern and garden will trigger the bonuses from Stewards and Neolithic canal.

Entropy Engineer said:
Actually yeah it would up the value of salt. Even if you don't factor in the amount of salt used in saline solutions. You have to take into account the cultural and spiritual significance. Salt would become something more than just something to preserve food or flavour it but something you need to purify water of the "demons". From a commodity of the commons to the wealth of the nobility. That is something that will up the demand for salt. Something we'll be all to happy to supply.

Well, a lot of rituals involve salt to drive away demons.

SpeckofStardust said:
... the cure is sold in bottles, meaning we can trade it, WE ARE NOT SELLING INFORMATION.

Sorry, doesn't work. Salt and honey solution goes bad fast. Honey and Salt individually cannot spoil, but in water honey DOES spoil.

Powerofmind said:
Greater Good, mitigated by a Stab Gain from Honorable Death. A self-protective trigger, and a synergy I can honestly say I didn't see coming until it barreled into us.

Hmm, good catch

Reader of all · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
HEEEY NOW, WHAT'S THIS I SPY?!

New vote direction; get GG to fuse with a pre-existing value. Okay people, speculate wildly~

I think that would be the share the cure with and welcome everyone result because it would give us 3 chances to activate GG

Umi-san · May 5, 2017

If we want to do Megaproject policy and rush a Megaproject, we can't take in the max # of people.

If we want to share the disease, we have to share it with everyone.

If we want to do neither of these things, we should go Expansion and a large-ish intake.

pblur · May 5, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
@Academia Nut
How big is our population? Disease is BY far the biggest killer, we should easily be breaking into extremely large numbers now.

Biggest killer is still going to be infant mortality. By a lot.

Sivantic · May 5, 2017

pblur said:
Hear hear! Remember how we got our second province? By giving food away while we were starving. We would be poor inheritors of that tradition indeed if we refused this gift that costs us nothing. (Also, it REALLY worked out well for us then...)

It does if it drags us into their politics because gratitude lasts less than gas.

Umi-san said:
Share it w/ everyone not just friendly groups. Better benefits, same ultimate cost, and the DP being healthy makes the TH and HK struggle more.

Or, they all die from disease on top of their struggles.

Candesce said:
No, that's something we do in both cases, and thus pretty much irrelevant.

The point was that we would have solved that with an action we plan on taking so not really costing anything to fix.

Citino said:
Exclusive rights on what? I'm pretty sure we'd teach them how to make it, not go full corporation and sell bottles of the stuff. They might need to buy our excess honey, but we won't be making much on it.

Leading plan, at the least, leaves us with 0 stability and possibly 1.

Salterns gives us salt necessary for it. With our production capabilities, it would be much easier for us to produce it than they would.

Now it is. Earlier it had us taking a Stability -3 hit. Less panicked over that now.

SpeckofStardust said:
So you have no faith in humanity check.

*looks at world politics*
It's called real-politik. No country is friends with another. Merely temporary allies.

pblur said:
So your plan is we max stability and turtle up completely like 19th century Japan? That didnt work well then, and it won't now. Some amount of intervention and instability is healthy.

Strawmanning.

Some amount of intervention and instability is necessary, but not something we should take when we have lots of other things on our plate. I would not call Instability health at all whatsoever.

Shard · May 5, 2017

[X] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Expansion

This is the perfect time to expand.

CatOnTheWeb · May 5, 2017

Academia Nut said:
I considered it, but decided that I was going to rule that the People basically accidentally kicked their defences and went into an absolutely psychotic frenzy over the idea of defeating the disease, the effort consuming stability but then immediately being rewarded back for the success, making it net neutral.

That is just beautiful.

Also, people, let's just take the salt down a notch, okay? To anyone feeling stressed and/or angry over the current vote, I ask you to remember the MST3K mantra, and go to /r/aww to look at some nice, cute animal pictures.

Like this baby cow.

Abby Normal · May 5, 2017

pbluekan said:
IRL salt didn't need sanitary theory to be a massively valuable product. It's one of the most useful substances in the ancient world anyway.

To add to this, apparently the earliest known town in Europe was built around salt production...6000 years ago. Its pretty damn important

Entropy Engineer said:
We aren't getting Econ for it because we're communist...

1) we get diplomancy instead of Econ
2) we might aswell be selling the potion because most of the main ingredients must be bought through us to be in any way sufficient.

We don't get econ for it because econ is food and we don't trade food, we trade luxuries

Academia Nut said:
Depending on this vote, it is entirely possible Greater Good will fuse with something, yes.

Oooh--we already know it's compatible with land of opportunity, so...major refugee influx option that specifically mentions other effects, anyone?

Tylonius · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
HEEEY NOW, WHAT'S THIS I SPY?!

New vote direction; get GG to fuse with a pre-existing value. Okay people, speculate wildly~

Perhaps taking in the biggest group will fuse it with LoO.

Reader of all · May 5, 2017

veekie said:
Okay, why ARE people all going for the massive refugee influx to end our baby boom? We can complete the Garden with the smallest influx as is. In one turn potentially.

Because it would not only probably upgrade LOO but also gives us 3 chances to trigger GG and possibly upgrade it not only that but it would give us the most influence over the lowlands making us THE spiritual authority over the entire region

Ghostdevil · May 5, 2017

pblur said:
Biggest killer is still going to be infant mortality. By a lot.

A lot of that was disease, only 4 out of 6 babies die now which for a civ as primitive as ours right now is So fucking amazing

hylas240 · May 5, 2017

Reader of all said:
That is only if they stabilize

Considering a turn is equal to a decade or two, I think they could definitely stabilize.

Also, don't underestimate the collective fear of the HK's people. They just got punched in the face with a completely new and traumatizing disease...and they just got handed a way to prevent it. There would be a huge incentive to concentrated actions involving mass production of the potions (and subsequently, getting more salt for that production).

While i'm not saying they'll definitely solidify and settle the southern coast in 2 turns, they will be looking at the coast much more so we should get it now. If only to keep our monopoly (such as it is) and to deny them sea based trade.

Powerofmind · May 5, 2017

Reader of all said:
I think that would be the share the cure with and welcome everyone result because it would give us 3 chances to activate GG

Tylonius said:
Perhaps taking in the biggest group will fuse it with LoO.

You guys do realize that if that specifically happens, GG can't trigger, as it would fuse out due to the action combination, right?

GG isn't noted to upgrade, it's noted to fuse.

Citino · May 5, 2017

Sivantic said:
Now it is. Earlier it had us taking a Stability -3 hit. Less panicked over that now.

Even that was balanced by +1 to immediate stability, as well as 3 possible GG procs, which was likely to have given us another 1 stability. So we'd possibly be at -1 stability, but get 8 econ.

Sivantic · May 5, 2017

veekie said:
Gardens generates Economy boost in itself, another boost from Stewards triggering, which combined with the Baby Boom, allows us to immediately start the Saltern after.

What makes you think Salterns wouldn't boost Economy too? Salt is wonderful for food conservation.

Citino · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
You guys do realize that if that specifically happens, GG can't trigger, as it would fuse out due to the action combination, right?

GG isn't noted to upgrade, it's noted to fuse.

I suspect that AN isn't that cruel. He'd either make the trait evolve at the end of the turn, or the effect would be better than just the GG activation.

tryrar · May 5, 2017

Shard said:
[X] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Expansion

This is the perfect time to expand.

No, there's a big honking special that gives a bonus to to the Garden or the Saltern, but only if we do it this turn. It's the prefect time for megaprojects

Reader of all · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
You guys do realize that if that specifically happens, GG can't trigger, as it would fuse out due to the action combination, right?

GG isn't noted to upgrade, it's noted to fuse.

Or it could trigger then fuse or just upgrade without fusing with anything

pblur · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
You guys do realize that if that specifically happens, GG can't trigger, as it would fuse out due to the action combination, right?

GG isn't noted to upgrade, it's noted to fuse.

I don't know how the ordering would work, but I'd bet AN wouldn't screw us on it.

Glassware · May 5, 2017

veekie said:
Secondly Stability -1 is a good end state here. It unlocks Restore Order, allowing us to do this:
[Main] The Gardens (Stability +1)
[Secondary] Restore Order
[Secondary] Restore Order x2(Stability +1-2)

[Province Law] The Gardens
[Province] The Gardens
[Province] The Gardens x2

Which gives us 3 actions of progress, with a chance of instant completion. Which puts us at Stability 2 next turn easily. One celebratory festival after the Gardens from 3.

My issue with that is, I do want to have an action free next turn to keep expanding, perhaps get a new province for those lovely actions. So, we can give the megaproject three actions, and as the current winning vote has us at 1 Stability at least, we can kick it for four. Meanwhile, we can do the expansion plans that have been delayed so long, potentially finally taking the southern shore or eastern hills.

hylas240 · May 5, 2017

veekie said:
That's the idea yes. Gardens itself boosts economy from it's description. Then boosts it again from Stewards. Which should generate enough Economy to do Saltern immediately afterwards.

Umi-san · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
HEEEY NOW, WHAT'S THIS I SPY?!

New vote direction; get GG to fuse with a pre-existing value. Okay people, speculate wildly~

As Tylonius said, taking in the greatest group makes it more likely to meld with LoO. Logic: taking in people is for the Greater Good because we're saving them from death and war.

If we help everyone, it will likely meld with Honorable Death. Logic: the people who died did so to save others; by giving what they died for out to others for no gain, we honor their sacrifice.

Divine Stewards: Possibly.... by doing Saltern or something w/ other, neutral actions, we'll be melding it? Idk.

Observance, too, is an option but none of what we're doing seems to mix it with them.

DocMatoi · May 5, 2017

Powerofmind said:
New vote direction; get GG to fuse with a pre-existing value. Okay people, speculate wildly~

theory: the option is to combine with observance, making sure we dont accumulate the ritual and malarkey like the ST did (this is their trait you know)
maybe itll wind up being like
Observance> Empirical Testing
Through careful study of the world, the will and workings of gods and spirits can be determined and understood- As long as it actually accomplishes something!
Pros: Further Improved use of study actions, less malarkey acquired
Cons: You don't have the tools to test some of your ideas...

Shard · May 5, 2017

tryrar said:
No, there's a big honking special that gives a bonus to to the Garden or the Saltern, but only if we do it this turn. It's the prefect time for megaprojects

Exactly. Our provinces expand, simultaneously paying off the cost for our megaproject, and we double-main the mageproject.

Double-Main-Double-Kick, to be precise.

Double-Main is preferable, though.

We do get a Stab bonus on finishing land-type megaprojects..

Powerofmind · May 5, 2017

Citino said:
I suspect that AN isn't that cruel. He'd either make the trait evolve at the end of the turn, or the effect would be better than just the GG activation.

Firstly, the last time GG fused with something, it became Symphony. You'll note that it has none of the traits GG has naturally. Secondly, you were the ones automatically assuming that your favored pick was obviously the way to trigger GG's value fusion (bias much?), I have just as much right to automatically assume it will screw us over if you're right.

Reader of all said:
Or it could trigger then fuse or just upgrade without fusing with anything

It has to fuse, AN specifically said it would fuse.

Paths of Civilization

Procrastinating.

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

One and Many

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

The Devil of Ghosts

In Madness Fallen

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

Theoretical Lover of Girls

One and Many

In Madness Fallen