I agree w/ shutting down the YS, but it's too late. If we turn around now the "Make Him King Cus We Want His Stats For A Single Turn Despite How We're Also Voting To Stay Out of the War" group would win.

In the middle of an economic crisis with no guaranteed solution, you would roll the dice on a civil war too? o_O

I... guess I can rest satisfied that, if nothing else, my faction prevented THAT level of recklessness.
 
I'm really morbidly curious about what sort of twisted doublethink leads people to insist that
  1. making an enemy out of the Martial/Diplomat is any way not a retarded idea
  2. about how a noble and beloved hero of the people being stymied by corrupt and out of touch bureaucratic chiefs will somehow serve as a reprimand on the idea of heroes taking office when it cements the negative image already established of our leadership
  3. How the thematics of this further cement the idea of our oligarchy becoming more reactionary and antagonistic to any attempt on status quo- we might solely have the best intentions opposing Criid, but the Oligarchs that actually rule might see this as a useful precedent
  4. Establishing that proper service to the state is rewarded with suzerainty is a bad thing.
Like people are fucking wildly projecting, from Tenchi's inane ramblings to Bluefur somehow insisting this is the same thing as a general seizing the proconsulship of Rome. This is the petty hubris in the quest, not the ambitious tax reform, not the economic reform in the middle of a war- but the rabid, irrational vehemence the thread responded to a character pointing out their questionable choices and calling them to task for them. Punishing dissent, stomping over previous decisions because we've decided to withhold reward for someone who chose to try and dedicate their lives to our People rather than the government- what a scumbag.
 
In the middle of an economic crisis with no guaranteed solution, you would roll the dice on a civil war too? o_O

I... guess I can rest satisfied that, if nothing else, my faction prevented THAT level of recklessness.
lol idc

your faction wants to undermine the core of our polity, the thing that led to our social values, the thing that led to our equality and bureaucracy and our very ability to actually protect our people rather than victimize them in the name of their own safety.
 
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I'm really morbidly curious about what sort of twisted doublethink leads people to insist that
  1. making an enemy out of the Martial/Diplomat is any way not a retarded idea
  2. about how a noble and beloved hero of the people being stymied by corrupt and out of touch bureaucratic chiefs will somehow serve as a reprimand on the idea of heroes taking office when it cements the negative image already established of our leadership
  3. How the thematics of this further cement the idea of our oligarchy becoming more reactionary and antagonistic to any attempt on status quo- we might solely have the best intentions opposing Criid, but the Oligarchs that actually rule might see this as a useful precedent
  4. Establishing that proper service to the state is rewarded with suzerainty is a bad thing.
Like people are fucking wildly projecting, from Tenchi's inane ramblings to Bluefur somehow insisting this is the same thing as a general seizing the proconsulship of Rome. This is the petty hubris in the quest, not the ambitious tax reform, not the economic reform in the middle of a war- but the rabid, irrational vehemence the thread responded to a character pointing out their questionable choices and calling them to task for them. Punishing dissent, stomping over previous decisions because we've decided to withhold reward for someone who chose to try and dedicate their lives to our People rather than the government- what a scumbag.
I argued that for quite a while, but people really, really dislike his policies. Like, holy shit, just getting people to agree that he wasn't going to go full tyrant was a thing. And Veekie at least seemed to have a pretty good grasp on the pros and cons, so I let it go. I wish you luck though, I'd still prefer for Cwriid to rule, so if you actually manage to sway people that'd be great.
 
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So...this is...politics!
I argued that for quite a while, but people really, really dislike his policies. And Veekie at least seemed to have a pretty good grasp on the pros and cons, so I let it go. I wish you luck though, I'd still prefer for Cwriid to rule, so if you actually manage to sway people that's be great.

I am mostly the "perfect is the enemy of good!" guy, but people think that they can...

a) solve it.
b) that way leads to the destruction of Ymrri's values.

I do hope that when we get out of this, we actually work on increasing our stability. We do not want to be caught red-handed in an emergency situation like this again.
 
Punishing dissent, stomping over previous decisions because we've decided to withhold reward for someone who chose to try and dedicate their lives to our People rather than the government- what a scumbag.
I mean... our reform was a good one...
But it was so much more advanced than our people were ready for... I mean its a net gain but due to its complexity the negatives of being unable to deal with that complexity is hurting us.
 
lol idc

your faction wants to undermine the core of our polity, the thing that led to our social values, the thing that led to our equality and bureaucracy and our very ability to actually protect our people rather than victimize them in the name of their own safety.
First of all, any system (however bad) is better than no system.

Second... really? We already have an authoritarian system. Chief tells you what land to work, what to do, etc. Benevolent tyranny. Leaders largely from a couple powerful families. Which is about the best we can support.

How is communal heredity going to completely wreck that? We already have de facto noble families controlling the land (subject to central review.) I don't see an inheritance structure spreading some of the power to landholders as a terribly destructive change.
 
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I mean... our reform was a good one...
But it was so much more advanced than our people were ready for... I mean its a net gain but due to its complexity the negatives of being unable to deal with that complexity is hurting us.

Which is why we should delay it with classification, not when we are in the middle of a war and our stability was zero.
 
Which is why we should delay it with classification, not when we are in the middle of a war and our stability was zero.
Well we can't delay it anymore, and reverting back after all this effort is just giving up, i'd rather suffer the consequences of our greed and hubris than surrender because we couldn't deal with them.
 
First of all, any system (however bad) is better than no system.

Second... really? We already have an authoritarian system. Chief tells you what land to work, what to do, etc. Benevolent tyranny. Leaders largely from a couple powerful families.Which is about the best we can support.

How is communal heredity is going to completely wreck that? We already have de facto noble families controlling the land (subject to central review.) I don't see an inheritance structure spreading some of the power to landholders as a terribly destructive change.
Authoritarian system doesn't matter, we have chiefs who are elected and yeah they're elected largely from a couple of powerful families but these families powers are fluid, and rooted solely in their ability to get the chief position.

Shifting to allowing the nobles to dominate land naturally in addition to political power due to their specialization in that field is basically just solidifying their position. It will lead our society away from its communistic tendencies and toward a steady accumulation of more wealth, more land, and thus more power. Gradually leading to a class of people who own land, contribute nothing, and suborn others in order to defend what they feel is deservedly theirs, because they inherited it and blood and parentage is what matters, not society's benefit and not individual merit. Having only political influence and power, meanwhile, can be more easily overcome because its ties are at their core more fluid.

I.e. the land is the ultimate, most permanent capital and letting capital get inherited is ultimately opposed to a society rooted in meritocratic goals, which is imo the best goal for a society, especially if one allows for a moderate amount of hereditary specialization because the kids get more opportunities to get good and thus more likely to get the job.
 
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[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
Not really how GG works, it will just give two separate rolls. Besides, it can trigger on any negative, not only on chances, so TGG does not tip the scales either way.

And a 'chance' not to lose stability is unreliable as hell.
No, exactly how GG works. We get two chances at rolling for Stability Gain for each chance of Stability loss

And a chance to not lose stability is a lot better than guarantee to lose stability.
In the middle of an economic crisis with no guaranteed solution, you would roll the dice on a civil war too? o_O

I... guess I can rest satisfied that, if nothing else, my faction prevented THAT level of recklessness.
Because clearly the position of allowing Cwriid to roll back all the effort we put so far to fix this when we are already so close, is so much better.

More than the fact that it's a roll on civil war, it's the fact that it would give us another turn to fix this crisis that we haven't found a guaranteed solution for yet. We get three turns, that allows us to finish the Law Megaproject and an extra turn to fix anything it didn't solve.
 
tally
Adhoc vote count started by minerva-n-memes on Apr 29, 2017 at 1:49 AM, finished with 24453 posts and 78 votes.
 
We get three turns, that allows us to finish the Law Megaproject and an extra turn to fix anything it didn't solve.
Crisis Results: -1 Econ, Grand Sacrifice grants +1 Turns to resolve crisis
I mean, we already have 2 turns remaining rn. Having 3 turns remaining would be rad but is kinda too extra for me.

Next Turn:
Main The Law + Kicker
Festival
Grand Sacrifice?
Turn After:
Main Holy Sites
Main More Boats? Chariots?
 
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I mean, we already have 2 turns remaining rn. Having 3 turns remaining would be rad but is kinda too extra for me.
*shrug*

That's fair. It's why I didn't push it too hard.

A potential plan to get the Law done and still have a turn to fix any outlying issues is to do the current plan again and that leaves us with the project finished, bonuses from the project, Stability 1 and another turn of cushion.
 
Because clearly the position of allowing Cwriid to roll back all the effort we put so far to fix this when we are already so close, is so much better.

Sunk cost fallacy. What matters isn't how much it has cost us, but rather how much it would cost us next time. It cost us so much because we had bad timing (and too much ambition for our civics.) Next time would be much cheaper.

More than the fact that it's a roll on civil war, it's the fact that it would give us another turn to fix this crisis that we haven't found a guaranteed solution for yet. We get three turns, that allows us to finish the Law Megaproject and an extra turn to fix anything it didn't solve.
This would be a much better point if we didn't have a guaranteed solution on the table already...
 
*shrug*

That's fair. It's why I didn't push it too hard.

A potential plan to get the Law done and still have a turn to fix any outlying issues is to do the current plan again and that leaves us with the project finished, bonuses from the project, Stability 1 and another turn of cushion.
I'd rather do festival than just a main GS again, tbh. I rly want that law holiday.

@pblur a guaranteed solution to some, a guaranteed but troublesome opt-out-of-risk-and-fun to others.
 
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@pblur a guaranteed solution to some, a guaranteed but troublesome opt-out-of-risk-and-fun to others.
I suppose its a value difference. I think opting out of risk in a crisis is optimal, and I hold seeking optimality (and politicing with other players) as the primary fun. If you have more fun in higher risk/reward choices... that's cool. It's very hard to argue against 'we should do this for fun'. ;)
 
I suppose its a value difference. I think opting out of risk in a crisis is optimal, and I hold seeking optimality (and politicing with other players) as the primary fun. If you have more fun in higher risk/reward choices... that's cool. It's very hard to argue against 'we should do this for fun'. ;)
I balance optimization against what I personally value. I enjoy politicking and seeking optimal choices in the game mechanics, but am also, and mostly, here for the story. Having unexpected things occur is a key value within that, and our tendency as a group to project and seek an optimal path is sort of ruining the surprises and narrative that are important aspects of stories.

Also, outside the above goals, I kinda just like making choices that I feel would give AN more agency.
 
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Sunk cost fallacy. What matters isn't how much it has cost us, but rather how much it would cost us next time. It cost us so much because we had bad timing (and too much ambition for our civics.) Next time would be much cheaper.


This would be a much better point if we didn't have a guaranteed solution on the table already...
Not really if it pushes too far in the opposite direction. Then we have to undo those mistakes and put in a better tax system

Law has never been a guaranteed solution to this. People want to believe it is, but we've never been given confirmation or a hint that this is the absolute only solution to this problem.
I suppose its a value difference. I think opting out of risk in a crisis is optimal, and I hold seeking optimality (and politicing with other players) as the primary fun. If you have more fun in higher risk/reward choices... that's cool. It's very hard to argue against 'we should do this for fun'. ;)
dissing the Cwriid is hardly the optimal solution, but I prefer that than making him king, which would be counterproductive.

No reason we can't do both, just have to couch the optimization in humor or feels.
 
I balance optimization against what I personally value. I enjoy politicking and seeking optimal choices in the game mechanics, but am also, and mostly, here for the story. Having unexpected things occur is a key value within that, and our tendency as a group to project and seek an optimal path is sort of ruining the surprises and narrative that are important aspects of stories.

Also, outside the above goals, I kinda just like making choices that I feel would give AN more agency.
Then I expect to oppose you in crisis and support you in stable times. Fair enough.
 
Gradually leading to a class of people who own land, contribute nothing, and suborn others in order to defend what they feel is deservedly theirs, because they inherited it and blood and parentage is what matters, not society's benefit and not individual merit.
I mean an entire class of nobles and royalty doesn't create people who contribute nothing, their a class of politicians, artists, diplomats, capitalists. Generalizing an entire group of powerful, typically well-educated and pretty big in population people isn't very genuine
 
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