Paths of Civilization

Umi-san · Apr 20, 2017

tryrar said:
As I posted, it's not the end of the world to let the boom end. We have so many other things on our plate right now that we probably can't afford to keep expanding at the moment.

I honestly cannot disagree more. Yes, it's not the end of the world, but if we CHOOSE to let 3 free econ EVERY. SINGLE. TURN. go away just because we wanted to increase martial? Against future enemies, i.e. NOT on our plate? That's a dumb choice.

Deadly Snark said:
Because everyone was focused on the DPs, with them on the backfoot, we are suddenly a potential target.

The Point is that Having a Military to help prevent something like that is very good, because it saves us headaches and free up actions in the long-term.

You never know when the dice will decide to fuck with the region, so we are better off having the asset to deal with the rage of the dice gods now and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

we're suddenly a potential target? To who? The HK whose immediate goals will be assimilating the DP's leftover vassals? The TH, who a) like us and b) will be raiding the DP's leftover vassals? No.

Having a military is very good, wow, if only we had a military that was noted to be very good at dealing with people who attack us, huh.

Yeah, we're better off having the asset of a) free econ, b) other choices. We never know when the rage of the dice gods come and what form it will take, after all.

Deadly Snark said:
The thing is that we are good on the Defensive when we are in our Core Territories with all the Hills and Forests. An expansion into the Badlands would not have any of those advantages and thus whatever military we station there would be at a heavy disadvantage.

The only way I'd ever go for the Badlands is if we added a Wall and Expand Forest Action so that we go full in, and the thread won't agree to that when we need to expand warriors and study metal.

So basically you won't expand because you're afraid we'll be attacked by people who are distracted by other things? Brilliant. This, in my salty-assed opinion, paranoia is why we will die. We have literally never gone outside our initial borders except to the north, a place which honestly isn't that great.

Ghostdevil said:
But THIS IS THE BEST opportunity to do so, after this turn is over the Lowlands will be closed, the HK or TH will be strong and based on your thoughts will instantly attack us
So its now or Never, Plus ending the boom giving us so much benefits

^

tryrar · Apr 20, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Or we just secondary warriors or chariots, we have This turn At the very very very least. assuming the DP don't resurge

We need to do it as main so we get the tech advances. It's like you don't read or something

Ghostdevil · Apr 20, 2017

Deadly Snark said:
Simply Secondary those action is a waste, we need war innovations, not just more bodies.

Then we effectively lose Shitton of econ for a chance, chance at getting innovations, there is no guarantee

tryrar said:
We need to do it as main so we get the tech advances. It's like you don't read or something

Look asshole, we don't NEED to do it this turn, we need bodies that's why I advocate secondary, we can do it the next turn

Sivantic · Apr 20, 2017

Reader of all said:
How about next turn we do a prep turn?

[][Main] Great Sacrifice
[][Secondary] Study health
[][Secondary] study metal

We get to stab 2 get metal upgrades which should greatly improve the effectivenes of what we have and then hopefully study the negative effects of using metal.

We should try and grab more warriors though as we are going to need to expand if the baby boom keeps going.

VoidZero · Apr 20, 2017

HK likely have mining tech and copper working up internally to give DP a blood letting. Otherwise i can't find a reason for DP to lose ground this quick. By this train of thought, would it be possible for HK and TH to establish diplomatic ties and temporary alliance against DP?

bluefur87 · Apr 20, 2017

Karugus said:
I think that's a bit much. We're good on the defensive, we just can't do decisive battles for the life of us. No one is going to pick a decisive battle with what they have every reason to believe is a sleeping giant. Raid? Yeah. Invade/sack our settlements? Over a single turn? I doubt it.

The fact of the matter is, unless we want another imperialistic would-be-hegemon emerging in the lowlands like the Dead Priests were, we have to go down there and get our foot in the door. We can do that while it's a clusterfuck with everyone too busy to pay us mind, we can do that when the TH and HK are at a standoff over the issue and probing for any advantage, or we can wait until one of them has gained the upper hand. Pick your poison.

Like I'd be fine going Main: Military 2X Secondary Badlands, but I don't think the thread will go for it. As far as I'm concerned, it's time to take the push and try and assert a hegemony over the region before someone else tries.

We also have a unique advantage in our diplo abilities. There is a very realistic possibility that we could just start diplomancing the lowland minors into listening to us.

I really think now is the wrong time to expand into the eastern hills, though. We need tech and we need to deal with the lowland minors while the situation is unstable enough so we won't attract attention.

I should, however, mention that people think we basically don't really exist outside of our hills. We're seen less as a sleeping giant and more as a recluse that no one cares enough about to find out more. That will change once we start pushing out east or south.

kalugin · Apr 20, 2017

x2 Grand Sacrifice. M New Settlement

Sivantic · Apr 20, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Then we effectively lose Shitton of econ for a chance, chance at getting innovations, there is no guarantee

Look asshole, we don't NEED to do it this turn, we need bodies that's why I advocate secondary, we can do it the next turn

Please remain calm and don't insult people. We don't want mods popping up

Karugus · Apr 20, 2017

Deadly Snark said:
The thing is that we are good on the Defensive when we are in our Core Territories with all the Hills and Forests. An expansion into the Badlands would not have any of those advantages and thus whatever military we station there would be at a heavy disadvantage.

The only way I'd ever go for the Badlands is if we added a Wall and Expand Forest Action so that we go full in, and the thread won't agree to that when we need to expand warriors and study metal.

Except the fact is we're not always going to be able to rely on those advantages and I think it's been pointed out numerous times that trying to set up all that shit simultaneously with the settlement causes issues.

The response to 'it's going to be difficult in the badlands because we're predisposed to turtling' isn't 'then let's turtle our way forward!' it's to address the issues as we do so. Ideally with a Main military expansion of some sort Our martial isn't so bad that simply because it's not as advantageous means it's not a viable option.

Like I said, I'm firmly convinced now is the time for relatively aggressive expansion so that when the dust does finally settle, we've got all those defensive features in place. The HK and the DP are as preoccupied as they'll ever be and our military has never been stronger.

Sivantic said:
Except they are badlands. They are going to require a lot of effort first before we get anything out of them. Also likely to get the Highland Kingdom irritated.

It's a good thing we're quite possible the best damn ecological engineers on the planet then isn't it?

tryrar · Apr 20, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Then we effectively lose Shitton of econ for a chance, chance at getting innovations, there is no guarantee

Look asshole, we don't NEED to do it this turn, we need bodies that's why I advocate secondary, we can do it the next turn

Yes we need to do it this turn, as AN confirmed more chariots/dudes is what will convince the Nomads to fuck off for a while. Secondary on any of this is a waste since we get zero chance on innovation, and a good chance if we do them as a main.

And I don't like being called an asshole, thank you very much.

Deadly Snark · Apr 20, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Then we effectively lose Shitton of econ for a chance, chance at getting innovations, there is no guarantee

It's a chance that we need to take because all our neighbors are Martial Cultures with better military tech than us. Once we beefed up our military, then we can go right back into expanding. Otherwise we look like a very tempting pinata for our Martial Culture Neighbors.

Malevolo · Apr 20, 2017

Sivantic said:
Please remain calm and don't insult people. We don't want mods popping up

We are mod bait thread already...

Ghostdevil · Apr 20, 2017

Sivantic said:
Please remain calm and don't insult people. We don't want mods popping up

Sorry, its just he quoted me to basically say that I can't read, when I understand what he wants and I've advocated its unnecessary

Sivantic · Apr 20, 2017

Karugus said:
It's a good thing we're quite possible the best damn ecological engineers on the planet then isn't it?

I'd say area.

Also I do like our perchance of being hill and shore folk, so yeah >.>

Ghostdevil said:
Sorry, its just he quoted me to basically say that I can't read, when I understand what he wants and I've advocated its unnecessary

Yes, tryrar has a tendency to exaggerate. Don't let him get to you and lower the quality of the discussion.

Deadly Snark · Apr 20, 2017

Karugus said:
Except the fact is we're not always going to be able to rely on those advantages and I think it's been pointed out numerous times that trying to set up all that shit simultaneously with the settlement causes issues.

The response to 'it's going to be difficult in the badlands because we're predisposed to turtling' isn't 'then let's turtle our way forward!' it's to address the issues as we do so. Ideally with a Main military expansion of some sort Our martial isn't so bad that simply because it's not as advantageous means it's not a viable option.

Oh I agree with you.

Which is why I want to go for a Martial Heavy Turn first, that way we'll have the military might to stop turtling and start expanding. Because the best way to deal with our turtling tendency is to get a military that can stand without needing to turtle first.

Otherwise if we reach out and get slapped back because we were too weak, the thread will want to turtle for a few turns again, which will hurt us.

tryrar · Apr 20, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Sorry, its just he quoted me to basically say that I can't read, when I understand what he wants and I've advocated its unnecessary

I didn't call you names, so that was unwarranted.

Look, it seems we disagree fundamentally on this point, so let's just agree to disagree. You want to rush expansions to keep baby boom going, I want to take a turn to tech up. We're not convincing each other, so let's just drop it.

ScreenWatcher · Apr 20, 2017

[X] Reinforce Northshore
[X] The king will deal with the problems as they come (No change)

tryrar · Apr 20, 2017

Sivantic said:
I'd say area.

Also I do like our perchance of being hill and shore folk, so yeah >.>

Yes, tryrar has a tendency to exaggerate. Don't let him get to you and lower the quality of the discussion.

When did I exaggerate? I made my points on action economy, not some nebulous fear of being attacked(which is bullshit BTW)

hylas240 · Apr 20, 2017

hylas240 said:
[Main]More Chariots
[Secondary] Build Wall- Northern Shore / Stability Booster
[Secondary] Study Metal

Thinking on it more, this seems a big better.

Chariots will almost certainly give us chariot archers and walling our northern shore will make any nomad or southern coastal civ raids pretty moot.

We could do a stability booster if we need to, but walling the north seems like a prudent decision considering the concern with the HK and TH attacking us after the DP are done with.

While some people might want to expand warriors as a secondary...I feel that it's less efficient. The reason we're doing warrior expansion is pretty much only for the innovation. Not having it as a main removes that possibility.

Does anyone want to share their thoughts on this plan? I feel like i'm getting a cold shoulder here.

Ghostdevil · Apr 20, 2017

tryrar said:
I didn't call you names, so that was unwarranted.

tryrar said:
It's like you don't read or something

Yea because questioning my intelligence and reading comprehension wasn't insulting,

tryrar · Apr 20, 2017

hylas240 said:
Does anyone want to share their thoughts on this plan? I feel like i'm getting a cold shoulder here.

Not a bad idea, though depending on the vote we don't need to build walls as Northshore might do that themselves.

Reader of all · Apr 20, 2017

Sivantic said:
We should try and grab more warriors though as we are going to need to expand if the baby boom keeps going.

We can do that next turn right now we should try to improve what we can while we do not have any pressing matters to attend to or we can always say

Main- New settlement
Main- More Chariots

While we do need more martial chariots has a guranteed additional effect while warriors does not and well I really want us to be the richest civ in the whole world

bluefur87 · Apr 20, 2017

Karugus said:
Except the fact is we're not always going to be able to rely on those advantages and I think it's been pointed out numerous times that trying to set up all that shit simultaneously with the settlement causes issues.

The response to 'it's going to be difficult in the badlands because we're predisposed to turtling' isn't 'then let's turtle our way forward!' it's to address the issues as we do so. Ideally with a Main military expansion of some sort Our martial isn't so bad that simply because it's not as advantageous means it's not a viable option.

Like I said, I'm firmly convinced now is the time for relatively aggressive expansion so that when the dust does finally settle, we've got all those defensive features in place. The HK and the DP are as preoccupied as they'll ever be and our military has never been stronger.

It's a good thing we're quite possible the best damn ecological engineers on the planet then isn't it?

Badlands probably isn't doable for us to turn into a forest.

It is, however, apparently a natural maze, which our forces would likely exploit the hell out of.

hylas240 said:
Does anyone want to share their thoughts on this plan? I feel like i'm getting a cold shoulder here.

I think it's more likely to get us more refined carts. We should really main expand warriors first, as our goal is quickly becoming to be able to fight two fronts.

tryrar · Apr 20, 2017

Reader of all said:
We can do that next turn right now we should try to improve what we can while we do not have any pressing matters to attend to or we can always say

Main- New settlement
Main- More Chariots

While we do need more martial chariots has a guranteed additional effect while warriors does not and well I really want us to be the richest civ in the whole world

We already are the richest civ. our econ points are worth more on a point by point basis than 2 or even 3 of the other civs.

Ghostdevil · Apr 20, 2017

tryrar said:
We already are the richest civ. our econ points are worth more on a point by point basis than 2 or even 3 of the other civs.

But we can increase that Extremely, while also maining warriors or chariots for the tech upgrades you guys covet so

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