While we are at the library identify where each nonfiction section is what is in them. Keeping Auntie happy is most important, but explain to her we can best help if we know where stuff is. We don't want to look at forbidden stuff and we aren't casing the joint. We just want to improve ourselves, especially in non-ninja related fields. If we have time as we work, follow the last winning library plan. (For the love of all of that is holy, let us get our books, pretty please.)
Ask about how much longer we will be staying in Konoha.
Gonna steal both of these

Probably best to add discussion on Noburi's reward, as well as at least some basic discussion/confirmation of Hazou's and Keiko's rewards.
I think we should trust Noburi and Keiko to ask for something reasonable -- we've already gotten shit for not treating them like they have sufficient agency.

I think @MadScientist had some ideas from earlier (TKB, real-water generation jutsu, high-chakra capacity/control Water/neutral jutsu...)
TKB?

You need to insert something about Kabuto: I.e., we offered to have him watch us learn ninjutsu, but the plan doesn't call for it ATM.
The plan calls for ending the update while still in the meeting. We can bring up Kabuto in the next one, once we know who all will be studying justu and can arrange for when and where that happens.
 
  • Basic ideas, in order from most to least proactive/risky
    1. Send a message, get her on board to coordinate extraction.
    2. Monitor info about her from other sources, wait until we know she'll be out of Kiri, intercept and extract without warning her.
    3. Monitor info about her, wait until we know she'll be out of Kiri, send message while she's outside, coordinate extraction either while she's still on that mission or at a later time.
You should add in 'for initial contact, whistle the welcome home song, so she'll know that it's us,' as that's one of the problems our team came up with when brainstorming.

Also, I'm not entirely happy with what you've got for talking to Jiraya, but I don't know how to fix it. I will, however, say 'I told you so' in an obnoxious fashion if and when things go wrong, so there.
 
[X] Action Plan: Make EJ Write Talky Scenes
[X] Lore Update
[jk] Action Plan: Ask Jiraiya to manage our romantic life (he can get a book out of it if he gets us a harem)

Edit - I'd much rather we hashed out the speech in the thread - we have more info on Konoha to draw from than we did when it was written, and in any case I don't like the idea of consulting the characters on things we can reasonably figure out ourselves.

Working on some thoughts now.
 
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Can MfD get a romcom spinoff quest?

(Yes, yes, I realize the answer is "be the spinoff you want to see in the world." Contemplating it.)
 
A refresher:

"I understand why the world is falling apart," Hazō said in a firm, clear voice. "Civilians are constantly struggling not to die, between the roving monsters in the wilderness and the desperate lack of access to resources and technology. Meanwhile, the ninja with the power to change all this are groomed from childhood to be cold-blooded torturers and killers, fighting for moments of territorial domination that will be gone with the next war if not before. Even if Leaf is less bad than the rest, even if it has people like you, it still exists as part of the same dysfunctional system.

"It would take so little for us to make things better. I can use the Multiple Earth Wall Technique to build in minutes what it would take a village weeks to finish, and my structures will be strong, solid stone that many villages would never be able to mine in the first place. That's the one ninjutsu I just happen to know, teachable to a thirteen-year-old. Then there are medic-nin." Hazō gestured to Noburi. "Even a beginner medic-nin can perform miracles, fixing injuries and diseases in mere hours that will otherwise last for a civilian's life—or simply take it away. And we use them to patch up our fighters so they can get back onto the battlefield more quickly."

He pointed to Keiko. "Education. Imagine the expertise and know-how of the ninja villages, multiplied by the numbers of the civilian population. How many problems could we figure out how to solve? How many inventions could such a community give rise to?"

Next, Kagome-sensei. "A single seal can replace weeks, months, years of civilian labour. Storage seals for secure transportation. Exploding tags for demolitions. Five-Seal Barriers for temporary structures of any size and shape, and we've only just begun to plumb the depths of what you can do with those. How many other seals are there in the world?"

Finally, he turned to Inoue-sensei, who was listening to him with an unreadable expression. "How much could we change society if we applied our stores of knowledge about the human mind to healing mental sickness and improving communication, instead of constantly refining our techniques for spying and interrogation?"

Hazō refocused his attention on Jiraiya, who was listening with a silent intensity.

"We're starting to understand why the world is the way it is. Politics. Military strategy. The need to seize and maintain an advantage, multiplied into an arms race where nothing matters except dealing more damage and taking less. And that arms race is killing humanity.

"I don't think it was ever meant to be this way. When you listen to people talk, all anybody wants is peace. We fight for peace. We die for peace. We go to war to prevent others from taking away our peace. And the more we do it, the more we give up what we could become. Instead we keep killing those with the most potential, and forcing the rest to spend their lives producing resources so we can do it faster.

"Humanity's light is fading. I don't know how many generations it'll take, but if we keep going like this, we will eventually find ourselves in darkness. The wilderness will take back civilisation, and all the killing in the world won't be able to show us the way out of that abyss.

"This is not an acceptable outcome."

He felt something of Keiko's steel in his voice as he spoke that phrase, and briefly wondered what it meant.

"Jiraiya, sir, you don't understand the six of us yet—and that includes Akane, because she will come back to us. What we are to you isn't another set of tools. What we are is a unique opportunity.

"Most hidden village movers and shakers don't think it's possible to change the fundamental principles of the shinobi world, or they don't want to try because those principles benefit them, or they simply don't care. You probably know that a lot better than me, since you've spent your whole life trying to get them on board. And the people outside the system—the missing-nin—just want to keep their heads down.

"But we're different. Our journey started when Inoue-sensei saved us from the Swamp of Death because she chose to do what was right, instead of what was easy. I know we've made mistakes and compromises along the way, but we are working hard to make that same choice over and over again, until it stops being a choice and becomes a way of life. We're not hiding in the wilderness and telling ourselves that there is too much suffering in the world for six ninja to ever make a difference.

"You told us you wanted to build a world where no one is sacrificed in suicide missions. We want to build a world where no one is sacrificed. Ever. We want to build a world where peace exists as a foundation, not as an ultimate goal, and where everyone's happiness has equal value.

"Will you help us?"

Jiraiya's eyebrows went up. He turned back to Hazou and considered the nervous genin thoughtfully for a moment before speaking. "The thing you need to understand, kid, is that Konoha is my first priority, and I will do anything for it. I love this city with every trace of my being. I love its aggravating, impossible, brilliant ninja. I love its buildings and its twisty little streets. I love the fact that we have built a place where people are safe, where civilians can do their jobs with a reasonable belief that they'll wake up in the morning.

"Do I care about making some random foreigner in Mist or Earth happier or safer? Not really. It would be nice, sure, but if it ever came down to that foreigner's life versus some Konoha citizen's, I'd terminate the foreigner and sleep well that night. Every major village and most of the minor ones have a ninja who is my counterpart"—the red-painted cheeks crinkled in a smile—"although, of course, not my equal. Anyway, all of those ninja feel the same way I do. They care about their villages and their people, and they don't give a rat's ass about Konoha."

Despite his best efforts, Hazou's breath stopped in his chest. The words were the doom to his hopes, yet there seemed to be a 'but' hanging at the end.

"On the other hand, if the entire world was safe and rich then Konoha would be safer and richer too, right? And so would the villages of all those not-as-good-as-the-real-thing Jiraiya counterparts out there. And here you are, another starry-eyed kid telling me that you want to make the world shiny and happy for everyone and that doing it will mean everyone is safer and richer. It's a great thought, sure. Ask yourself two questions, though: first, do you really think that you're so much smarter than everyone else that no one has ever had this thought before? And, second, assuming that someone has had the idea already, why does the world look like it does?"

This was not the response that Hazou had expected, and he found himself fumbling for an answer. "Because...some people want power, and they think the best way to get it is by pushing other people down? And most people aren't willing to stand up to them?"

"Sure," Jiraiya said. "There's an element of truth to that. The balance of power in the Elemental Nations is largely determined by where a few dozen people live. The various Kage, the jinchuuriki, the S-rank ninja...nations that have more of those people are more powerful and can get more of what they want, leaving less for everyone else. That cuts both ways, though—I'm one of the ten most powerful ninja in the world, and I'm here in Konoha. Sarutobi-sensei is here. The jinchuuriki of the Nine-Tails is here. Gai, Kakashi, Tsunade, the entire Hyuuga clan, the Uchiha, the Aburame, the Nara—they're all here." He caught himself and shrugged. "Well, okay, Tsunade isn't in Konoha proper, but she's still in Fire. Point being, Konoha is a powerhouse that no one wants to mess with. Furthermore, Fire is a resource-rich area; we've got plenty of iron, coal, wood, water, arable land, precious metals, and everything else you need to be mostly self-sufficient. Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that not everyone in Konoha is stupid or a mustache-twirling kabuki villain. Given all that, why isn't Fire already this paradise that you're wanting to build?"

The voice was calm, the tones those of a teacher leading a pupil. Hazou could feel his heart speeding up as he cast around for the answer that Jiraiya clearly wanted him to get to. When the Sannin laid it all out like that, it really didn't add up. Fire should have been able to build the world that Hazou envisioned, so why hadn't they?

"I...don't know, sir?"

"Any of the rest of you kids want to take a crack at it?" Jiraiya asked. "Why isn't the whole world—or, at least, the Land of Fire—this super-happy paradise that our young friend here wants?"

...In retrospect, we really should have probed a bit more about daily life in Leaf, gotten a better sense of to what extent it is or isn't the paradise we want to build. Ino says someone would be doing something if civilians' lives were really that bad; maybe Leaf doesn't stop scorch squads, but they could in fact have med-nins going around fixing cleft palates, infrastructure-nins building walls and aqueducts, and so on.

(I'm reminded of the effective altruism distinction between years of life lost and year-equivalents lost to disability.)
 
I don't think disproving physical laws is nearly as interesting as breaking the concrete limits they impose.

Storage seals already trivially break conservation of energy; seal heavy rock at y=0, raise seal to y=1, release and repeat. It won't be until we have, say, timed automatic storage seals + the machinery to automatically cycle the seal around and make use of the rock's energy, that we can do anything with this we couldn't do as well by having a ninja burn chakra to move stuff around (which as far as we know also breaks CoE, though here it's more plausible that chakra represents a different form of energy such that net energy is conserved. Hell, it could even be locally conserved!).
 
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Also:
[X] Training Noburi: Sneaky Medic
Intelligence 3 [6]
Intelligence 4 [14]
Medicine 4 [18]
Medicine 5 [23]
Medicine 6 [29]
Medicine 7 [36]
Medicine 8 [44]
Medicine 9 [53]
Medicine 10 [63]
Resolve 4 [71]
Resolve 5 [81]
Medical Ninjutsu 7 [88]
Medical Ninjutsu 8 [96]
Medical Ninjutsu 9 [105]
Medical Ninjutsu 10 [115]
Stamina 4 [123]
Stealth 11 [134]
Stealth 12 [146]
Stealth 13 [159]
Stealth 14 [173]
Stealth 15 [188]
Save 30.5XP
[X] Training Keiko: Sneaky Wind
Stealth 11 [11]
Stealth 12 [23]
Stealth 13 [36]
Stealth 14 [50]
Stealth 15 [65]
Zephyr's Reach 9 [74]
Zephyr's Reach 10 [84]
Save 62XP
[X] Training Hazou: Sneaky MEW
Stealth 10 [10]
Stealth 11 [21]
Stealth 12 [33]
Stealth 13 [46]
Stealth 14 [60]
MEW 7 [67]
MEW 8 [75]
MEW 9 [84]
MEW 10 [94]
Save 23XP
 
Bluh, got nerdsniped away from the polisci/creative writing.


The current speech says, prisoner's dilemma--need additional constraint to prevent both sides from defecting. Focuses on the constraint of "trust" (as opposed to deterrence, gains from trade). Tonewise, berates Jiraiya and the Hokage (let's not do this).

Besides tone, I think the key issue is: what makes us think we can succeed more than these others (Hokage, etc.), who've already had such big chances to? It's definitely on J's mind as well. What's our selling point, why should he throw in with our plan when every previous one seems to have failed?
 
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Besides tone, I think the key issue is: what makes us think we can succeed more than these others (Hokage, etc.), who've already had such big chances to? It's definitely on J's mind as well. What's our selling point, why should he throw in with our plan when every previous one seems to have failed?
Why should it be sold as "reasons should you help us achieve this goal"? Shouldn't it be instead sold as "reasons you should try to achieve this goal, and how we can help you"?
 
Meeting with Jiraiya.
  • First, discuss Jiraiya allowing us to build airborne tower as proof of concept & rewards for the innovation. Yes or no? What rewards? Note that this requires accessing Summon Realm, where we can also grab the paralytic he requested.
  • Have discussion of rewards for the team.
Can you add something along the lines of 'if we're not staying in Leaf until Akane recovers, offer to trade seal research to stay until she does?'
 
Why should it be sold as "reasons should you help us achieve this goal"? Shouldn't it be instead sold as "reasons you should try to achieve this goal, and how we can help you"?

Yeah, you're right.

Slight specification: J thinks of the goal as "promote happy yay times in Konoha (HYK) such that other people don't fight us over it"; if we say Konoha can do that best by doing things that make it happy yay everywhere (HYE), works for him, but he's not taking it for granted. The people he's comparing us to are powerful Konohans who want HYK, but might have been underfocused on HYE. So ideally we want something like "here are plausible paths to HYK you guys might have been unable to think of or implement, that accord with our HYE mindset (and that would be hard to get to otherwise)".

Bluh, got nerdsniped away from the polisci/creative writing.


The current speech says, prisoner's dilemma--need additional constraint to prevent both sides from defecting. Focuses on the constraint of "trust" (as opposed to deterrence, gains from trade). Tonewise, berates Jiraiya and the Hokage (let's not do this).

Besides tone, I think the key issue is: what makes us think we can succeed more than these others (Hokage, etc.), who've already had such big chances to? It's definitely on J's mind as well. What's our selling point, why should he throw in with our plan when every previous one seems to have failed?


One thing we have to offer is simply our breadth of compassion; unlike the power players in Konoha, we don't have a home village that holds our love and allegiance. We've seen all sorts of people without the normal barrier of propaganda and purpose to keep us apart from them, and we've seen that...they're human beings, not very different from our own precious people.

This is kind of implied by the current speech's emphasis on trust; we can command other villages' trust insofar as we (can demonstrate that we) care about them and their citizens as much as anyone else. Similarly, if two of the major powers had people like us in control, they could consolidate forces and spend more resources on projects of mutual benefit, bring small nations into the fold by promising them those developments, etc.

But I think it's at least as important to mention the flipside; if we had the kind of unipolar power that nations dream of, we'd use it to help everyone and foster cooperation and compassion, rather than constraining our inferiors/enemies and leading to inevitable war as our power wanes (ninja nations' power being dependent on key individuals, and thus subject to regression to the mean*, as well as fracturing).

Another major differentiator, and I imagine the reason most of us think we can do this OOC, is our intelligence and inventiveness. We've already come up with an invention that could represent a major shift in war and surveillance tech, and that's with the relatively simple sealing and mechanical knowledge we have available. By not being beholden to superiors who demand constant missions and distrust innovation in inferiors they'd prefer to be mere tools,** we've been able to invent new seals at the age of 13 without blowing anything up. It's not unreasonable to think that we could accomplish a lot of things in the future, especially if those conditions hold.


*Apart from when current ninja power is used to affect future ninja power via scorch squads and biotinkering.

**See, big J, it's so great that you give us Konoha vacations and let us tinker and invent stuff sometimes, instead of always sending us after unstable bizzaros.
 
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Wouldn't increasing the Supply of something decrease the price?
Obviously. Which is why I'm now shorting Morton's.


Is there a plan that involves either letting Ino down easy or just ignoring the issue? Because I'd vote for that.
Be the plan you want to vote for!

Can MfD get a romcom spinoff quest?

(Yes, yes, I realize the answer is "be the spinoff you want to see in the world." Contemplating it.)
I would read it. Shoot, write a good intro chapter and I'll leave you your first Like. (Assuming I get in ahead of everyone else, at least.)
 
[X] Action Plan: Make EJ Write Talky Scenes
[X] Action Plan: Ask Jiraiya to manage our romantic life (he can get a book out of it if he gets us a harem)
 
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