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It took only three steps to realize that Orochimaru was not going to make a follow-up attack. Or take any other action. Because he wasn't there.
Pinging @Paperclipped and @Velorien , as well.

Since it was unsimulationist of Hazou-the-character to have approached Orochimaru, himself, rather than through a SC, does that mean that Orochimaru still gets all of our loot? CATEARS, RRBs, Macerator 2.0s, etc? Can it be said that Hazou Prime, knowing the danger, left his seals with Team Uplift or something?
 
The fact that the negative XP means we do get to redo our builds like Zagreus is pretty awesome. I wouldn't actually be surprised if dying did have some minor* penalty, like losing a small chunk of XP.

Also, this makes me want to invest in TH more, when we get a chance. Him noticing his second coil missing, and how Chakra spread through his body, can easily have flavor overlap with his practice as a Chakra Weaver. Certainly, tweaking something like Pangolin hammer to be cheaper so we get max utility from our Chakra compared to boosting would be nice (yes yes, we made a deal, what's he gonna do, kill us?). And weirdly, investing in Chakra capacity may be more important than before. Though not more important that non-resource skills like punch, of course! But the more of an internal reservoir we have, the less screwed we are if we can't find shimmer

(Where are we, Zaun?? (Actually, mad scientist investor with some parental trauma (including a dead dad and a dead father figure), who was growing his hair out, has blown up a ship before, runs on shimmer after a near-death experience (we were just a bit nearer death), mercurial mental state, and becomes a symbol for the downtrodden masses? I don't not see it. Though seeing Hazou and Echo nerding out over their respective time research and attempts at miniaturization would also be an adorable drawing/Omake.))

... Anyway. Yeah, if we have a period without being able to harvest Chakra, then having more to run off of could be useful. I think we should focus on combat fundamentals first (and the changed IN and lack of immediate research gives a really easy character driver for that). But after that for a bit? I think increasing Chakra, and using the notes XP to try and get techniques more efficient or powerful would be cool (and then, cool, MS).
 
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Pinging @Paperclipped and @Velorien , as well.

Since it was unsimulationist of Hazou-the-character to have approached Orochimaru, himself, rather than through a SC, does that mean that Orochimaru still gets all of our loot? CATEARS, RRBs, Macerator 2.0s, etc? Can it be said that Hazou Prime, knowing the danger, left his seals with Team Uplift or something?
Yeah, I kinda agree with this. We've used SC and obfuscation whenever we could thus far. Us dying, and him getting to loot piñata aren't quite synonymous.
 
Since it was unsimulationist of Hazou-the-character to have approached Orochimaru, himself, rather than through a SC, does that mean that Orochimaru still gets all of our loot? CATEARS, RRBs, Macerator 2.0s, etc? Can it be said that Hazou Prime, knowing the danger, left his seals with Team Uplift or something?
There are many ways that chapter could have gone. If I were the one writing it (and were feeling particularly simulationist/dull/uninterested in drama), Hazou might have been alive one moment as he rested in his tent, then dead the next (and Orochimaru, off-screen, tunnels into Hazou's tent to loot the body before running away). It's pretty plausible overall, and yields the same result in terms of looting.

That is to say: no, Chapter 702 will stand as-is for now.
 
We're going to change our mission statement as QMs, so that our priority is making MfD a fun and interesting story first, and a simulation second.

There are many ways that chapter could have gone. If I were the one writing it (and were feeling particularly simulationist/dull/uninterested in drama), Hazou might have been alive one moment as he rested in his tent, then dead the next (and Orochimaru, off-screen, tunnels into Hazou's tent to loot the body before running away). It's pretty plausible overall, and yields the same result in terms of looting.

That is to say: no, Chapter 702 will stand as-is for now.
 
That is to say: no, Chapter 702 will stand as-is for now.
I admit to some degree of frustration here after we were repeatedly told that 702 wasn't canon, just a convenient outline of how Orochimaru could kill Hazou whenever he wanted, and also asked to avoid engaging with or litigating the details of the chapter. I do think that it's noteworthy that we would've likely done something about Oro, if only to stash the scroll or inform him of the dead man's switch, in between the rift battle and the arbitrary future point Hazou died in, and then we got timeskipped straight to Hazou's death without any chance for input. I understand the motive given that figuring out the direction of the quest was taking long enough already but I would very much appreciate a rough estimate of how long "for now" is likely to last and confirmation whether you're completely firm on 702 or just not willing to spend time/effort revising 702 with the current list of priorities.
 
[Chakra ink] is just carbon black dispersed in water, correct? Can we make it ourselves?

What about a brush?
Quote from chapter 122:

Hazō sat down crosslegged, pulling out the lump of brass that he used for infusing. As he had done a thousand times over the last year he buffed the lump on the leather of his belt to be sure that it was free of any dirt, meanwhile reciting the short nonsense rhyme that served to clear the chakra pathways. He dipped the brass in the ink and blew gently across the surface, pushing the tiniest pulse of chakra through his fingertips and into the ink...[snip]
The ink being used was indeed soot mixed with water. And no, Hazō does not have a brush. He can make one if he can find the right materials, but that isn't trivial -- the bristles need to be of a very specific firmness (i.e. firm but not too firm) and bind closely together without being too tightly bound.

Hazō can make do with a suboptimal brush and suboptimal paper, but will suffer some penalties as a result.

Hazou attempts to grab Daiji's escaping memories, and attempts to absorb some of his knowledge of the afterlife, the way that he said you could absorb chakra from shimmers.
Daiji's memories spawned out when he was halfway to the ground (i.e., out of reach) and dissolved within a few seconds. They aren't catchable.
 
There are many ways that chapter could have gone. If I were the one writing it (and were feeling particularly simulationist/dull/uninterested in drama), Hazou might have been alive one moment as he rested in his tent, then dead the next (and Orochimaru, off-screen, tunnels into Hazou's tent to loot the body before running away). It's pretty plausible overall, and yields the same result in terms of looting.

That is to say: no, Chapter 702 will stand as-is for now.
So what you're saying is that if we were being more simulationist, Orochimaru would probably have killed whatever other members of Team Uplift were in Hazou's tent, and we would have needed to deal with the salt of their recriminations of Hazou's idiocy in trusting the made-of-snakes guy.
 
The ink being used was indeed soot mixed with water. And no, Hazō does not have a brush. He can make one if he can find the right materials, but that isn't trivial -- the bristles need to be of a very specific firmness (i.e. firm but not too firm) and bind closely together without being too tightly bound.

Hazō can make do with a suboptimal brush and suboptimal paper, but will suffer some penalties as a result.
Okay, thank you for the response, sorry this is fiddly and annoying. Pinging @Velorien @Paperclipped for final follow up.

Just to be clear to draw more seals we need:
  1. A source of paper, subpar will do but there might be penalties to the infusion/callig rolls. Current Status: Hazou has several hundred sheets of non-functional seals that can be used as sealing quality paper, but cannot make more (even subpar) himself(?)
  2. A Calligraphy brush. Current Status: Hazou doesn't have one but with access to materials could make a subpar brush with smallish effort and a good brush with significant effort and good materials.
  3. Chakra ink. Current status: Hazou has none but could make the ink by lighting a campfire for soot and mixing with water. He will still need a small peice of brass(?) -- does it need to be brass? At Sealing 66 can he just use his chakra control to infuse the ink?
 
There are many ways that chapter could have gone. If I were the one writing it (and were feeling particularly simulationist/dull/uninterested in drama), Hazou might have been alive one moment as he rested in his tent, then dead the next (and Orochimaru, off-screen, tunnels into Hazou's tent to loot the body before running away). It's pretty plausible overall, and yields the same result in terms of looting.

That is to say: no, Chapter 702 will stand as-is for now.
I was under the impression that the only reason the biosealing was a mistake was that it let Orochimaru trivially and discreetly kill us from far away. Him killing us up close and looting our body quietly is... Just as realistic as it was before the bioseal. Why did he wait so long to do this, again ? Why didn't he do it the minute we taught him runes and told him nobody but us knew the secret ?

Indeed, I was under the impression that the reason we got the fun and unsimulationist chapter 702 was because the simulation would be a boring "Orochimaru undefeatbly kills you from a mile away, none of your possible defenses work against him". This is a very significant change !
 
Edit: Looking for plan? Scroll down past my wonderings.

Hmm. The seals don't work because they aren't real seals. They aren't drained or deactivated... they were created by whatever forces create anything in the afterlife to mimic our state before our death, but are ultimately just dysfunctional copies. Like somebody took a photograph, we're just holding onto pictures of seals.

The same might be true of other equipment. Kunai and the like. Are they even metal? Are they sharp, useable?

I'm sure we've speculated about the possibility of, say, slitting your throat right next to an afterlife rift and then walking back out to double all the equipment we carry at once. We've never had a real chance to test these sorts of questions. This might be an answer of sorts.

Even if we had the dog scroll on us, I expect it would just be a fake copy, in the end. We might even be able to read it without shenanigans, though if the shenanigans are integral to the scroll's existence, then we might have had an inaccurate, flawed copy that teaches us nothing.

But there's an interesting question about what gets preserved and what isn't. I assume 'chakra' can't be a comprehensive answer to that question, because Hazo himself still has an amount of chakra in him.

Is cloth still cloth? Do clothes function as clothes? Presumably yes.
Is metal still metal? Is it still hard, strong, sharp, functional as tools or armor?
What about chakra metal?

Is Hazo even still flesh as he knows it, or is he some sort of construct made of afterlife particles made to mimic flesh? Because that's what he expects of himself, and as we just learned, expectations in the afterlife can affect reality around us.


I'm tempted to call this effect Chaos. Not the 40k version, not a corrupting force. Just unordered, malleable. Reality here can be bent to our will, we are Order.

[X] Action plan: Science and Civilization.
Wordcount 355

  • Head to town to ask questions
    • Priority 1 is information. We need to create a map of the afterlife, we need to find the people we care about, and we need to find or create a way home.
      • There's likely plenty of experiments we could run and things we can learn by ourselves, but it would likely be faster and more efficient to just ask somebody.
  • Check any shimmers along the way (if there are any)
    • Priority 2 is capability. Having information only matters to the extent that you can act upon it. In this case, that means we need chakra. Keep an eye out for shimmers.
    • If there are any shimmers we can reach without significantly delaying our journey to town, grab them.
      • This might include activities like climbing trees or backtracking while we travel, to ensure good visual coverage... though currently standing on a mountain should be enough to start with.
    • This should ultimately be determined by Hazopilot; Getting to the shimmers and restoring his chakra is important, but we would like to end the update in town, preferably. Time might not be as reliable as it used to be, so what qualifies as a 'significant' delay is hard to determine.
  • Figure out what you can as you go.
    • Hazo is no average ninja. He didn't reinvent rune-crafting by being stupid. Look, test, think.
    • Daiji seemed to evaporate mid-air. The seals don't seem to be drained so much as just... paper with ink on it. What is Hazo, and all of his stuff, even made of any more?
      • Test your body. Do you bleed?
      • Test your stuff. Is it made of the proper materials, or just copies made out of afterlife particles? Maybe both?
      • Test the world. Daiji said things stay when people expect them to, but can change from once glance to the next. Can Hazo's perceptions, expectations or willpower affect the world around him?
    • Prepare yourself to distrust what you are told. If perception can affect the afterlife, then don't let other people limit you. Above everything else, believe this: You will find (or make) a way back home.
 
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Hmm. The seals don't work because they aren't real seals. They aren't drained or deactivated... they were created by whatever forces create anything in the afterlife to mimic our state before our death, but are ultimately just dysfunctional copies. Like somebody took a photograph, we're just holding onto pictures of seals.

The same might be true of other equipment. Kunai and the like. Are they even metal? Are they sharp, useable?

I'm sure we've speculated about the possibility of, say, slitting your throat right next to an afterlife rift and then walking back out to double all the equipment we carry at once. We've never had a real chance to test these sorts of questions. This might be an answer of sorts.

Even if we had the dog scroll on us, I expect it would just be a fake copy, in the end. We might even be able to read it without shenanigans, though if the shenanigans are integral to the scroll's existence, then we might have had an inaccurate, flawed copy that teaches us nothing.

But there's an interesting question about what gets preserved and what isn't. I assume 'chakra' can't be a comprehensive answer to that question, because Hazo himself still has an amount of chakra in him.

Is cloth still cloth? Do clothes function as clothes? Presumably yes.
Is metal still metal? Is it still hard, strong, sharp, functional as tools or armor?
What about chakra metal?

Is Hazo even still flesh as he knows it, or is he some sort of construct made of afterlife particles made to mimic flesh? Because that's what he expects of himself, and as we just learned, expectations in the afterlife can affect reality around us.


I'm tempted to call this effect Chaos. Not the 40k version, not a corrupting force. Just unordered, malleable. Reality here can be bent to our will, we are Order.

[X] Action plan: Science and Civilization.
  • Take a full inventory of our clothes and possessions. How accurately does this match what we had before our death?
    • In particular, if the seals are no longer seals, is everything else the same? Does metal still act as metal, and cloth as cloth? Is the sealing paper still paper? Look closely for any differences.
    • Hazo had several thought experiments back when he was alive about how things might work. If his flesh and blood is still on the human path, then what is he really made of, now? What is this place, where the land itself can apparently move or change from one glance to the next?
      • From what Daiji said, things might just be the way they are because of expectation or memory or something. Can Hazo alter anything? Does this possibly explain his enhanced Iron Nerve movements?
      • Poke around for any easy answers, but accept that proper testing might have to wait.
  • Priority 1 is information. We need to create a map of the afterlife, we need to find the people we care about, and we need to find or create a way home.
    • There's likely plenty of experiments we could run and things we can learn by ourselves, but it would likely be faster and more efficient to just ask somebody. Head to town.
  • Priority 2 is capability. Having information only matters to the extent that you can act upon it. In this case, that means we need chakra. Keep an eye out for shimmers.
    • If there are any shimmers we can reach without significantly delaying our journey to town, grab them.
      • This might include activities like climbing trees or backtracking while we travel, to ensure good visual coverage... though currently standing on a mountain should be enough to start with.
    • This should ultimately be determined by Hazopilot; Getting to the shimmers and restoring his chakra is important, but we would like to end the update in town, preferably. Time might not be as reliable as it used to be, so what qualifies as a 'significant' delay is hard to determine.
This entire plan could almost be a QM question, it's basically just a meeting with Hazoupilot instead of Mari. I legitimately don't understand why it takes 500 words to say what could be said in 20.
 
This entire plan could almost be a QM question, it's basically just a meeting with Hazoupilot instead of Mari. I legitimately don't understand why it takes 500 words to say what could be said in 20.
~350 words

I want any potentially useful information to be in a threadmark not hidden between updates

I am providing direction for the next update to be written.

I'm not going to write an additional 500 words justifying the entire plan. If you have specific objections, I'll answer those, otherwise go ahead and stick with your 20 word alternative.
 
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I was under the impression that the only reason the biosealing was a mistake was that it let Orochimaru trivially and discreetly kill us from far away. Him killing us up close and looting our body quietly is... Just as realistic as it was before the bioseal. Why did he wait so long to do this, again ? Why didn't he do it the minute we taught him runes and told him nobody but us knew the secret ?

Indeed, I was under the impression that the reason we got the fun and unsimulationist chapter 702 was because the simulation would be a boring "Orochimaru undefeatbly kills you from a mile away, none of your possible defenses work against him". This is a very significant change !
Just to check: is this a thing you feel sufficiently strongly about that it actually needs to be litigated, or could we simply move on? There's a lot of decisions and worldbuilding that still need to be done; I haven't asked the other QMs about this, but I for one would like to focus on those things instead of having to figure out details of something on the Human Path that isn't going to be relevant for scores or hundreds of chapters.

If you really need us to spend time going through all this, we can. If you're willing to let it go and figure it out later, that would be great.

Is Hazo even still flesh as he knows it, or is he some sort of construct made of afterlife particles made to mimic flesh? Because that's what he expects of himself, and as we just learned, expectations in the afterlife can affect reality around us.
Amusingly, we spent on the order of an hour debating this exact topic this morning.
 
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