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I don't like the Superchiller inclusion either. It seems sloppy and prone to failure on multiple levels.

Tunneling in ahead of time might get detected by seals and jutsu. Having 2 Hazōclones splitting off from the main group might also be noticed by the main strike team who are going to be on extremely high alert. Also, the secret runes and SCs require a significant chakra allotment that will be hard to hide. Oro is smart enough to calculate the estimated chakra available and will definitely notice if the distribution is off. He has strong opinions on Tsunade's strength of 100 chakra sink technique so we know he's going to be snarky about chakra inefficiency.

Even if we win the fight, the Superchiller risks being seen by a Hyuga. Hazō doesn't have a plausible reason to order Hyuga to stay off the rift site that the Sannin would accept that isn't a lie. And we obviously can't lie. Can Hazō clean up evidence of the Superchiller that fast?

The last thing I want is Oro to suspect we are going to betray him to monopolize the rift. And carrying in a bunch of secrets runes that we can't explain looks real bad.
 
How about this?

"Are we agreed that the Akatsuki cannot, under any circumstances, be allowed to triumph? Very well. We have a single, final rune which we will deploy if and only if it becomes obvious that our efforts to prevent the Akatsuki from maintaining their possession of the Rift have failed. We are confident that it will kill any living thing which remains in the Force Dome. It will not allow us to win but it will ensure that they lose. We are forbidden from discussing any further details by the order of the Hokage and indeed are violating his orders by having disclosed this much."

It's honest. It heads off any other questions. And if we actually need to deploy it, then...the fallout doesn't really matter.
 
It's very interesting to see someone with super-strength engaging with the World of Cardboard problem.
This looks like Tsunade can expand her contact area by projecting a chakra/force construct on or through material. Since "threads" would immediately sink down, it's the area between them that's doing the ultimate work here.

Can Tsunade use this to immobilize opponents? Because, in effect, the force construct is a rigid surface which redirects force directly to-from Tsunade. If she can expand this closely over irregular surfaces, she could even use it to stick to them, given- Oh wait, ninja can already do that. Is this an expansion of surface sticking? That'd be a neat connection.
My read on this was something like "Chakra-adhereing snowshoes" she's giving herself the benefits of more surface area to adhere to, so she won't just rip up the ground she's standing on with her punch-recoil, and so she won't stink into the ground when massively encumbered.

This was an awesome moment, especially in how it contrasts with the persistent direction of how our previous Spooky Aura interactions went. Although I'm surprised that Tsunade is still surprised. Didn't Orochimaru sufficiently show his preference against bullying Hazou (I can't believe I typed that)?

If she is still so surprised, is Orochimaru going Pretty Damn Far, more than she'd expect? Should that concern us regarding common Snuncle worries?
Oro probably hasn't used a rapport-based strategy in actual years(decades?),so she's understandably surprised.

Amusingly, it probably wouldn't work on anyone else, because of Oro's reputation and -16 TYS penalty would have any normal person noping the hell out, but Hazou has worked so hard to see past that, leaving him susceptible.

I agree that it is weird for the less substantial effects to have less of whatever kind of integrity is involved. From what we've seen, it looks to me like it's easier for outside interference to make the chakra in a summon stop being a person than it is for outside interference to make the chakra in a Surging Seas jutsu stop being water, though.
I have no explanation for why this should be the case; it's definitely counterintuitive.
Chakra constructs imitating biology seems stable-but-fragile. They'll last a while if left alone, but collapse when stressed.
A bit jet of fire is unstable-but-robust, it won't last long, but you can't destroy it by punching.

A sealing array in the general vein of "deal 1 stress each round to chakra constructs in the zone" seems plenty fair play for a major project for an S-rank sealmaster near the peak of the art.
 
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How about this?

"Are we agreed that the Akatsuki cannot, under any circumstances, be allowed to triumph? Very well. We have a single, final rune which we will deploy if and only if it becomes obvious that our efforts to prevent the Akatsuki from maintaining their possession of the Rift have failed. We are confident that it will kill any living thing which remains in the Force Dome. It will not allow us to win but it will ensure that they lose. We are forbidden from discussing any further details by the order of the Hokage and indeed are violating his orders by having disclosed this much."

It's honest. It heads off any other questions. And if we actually need to deploy it, then...the fallout doesn't really matter.

I don't know... The combination of "why don't you open with the winning move" and "why haven't you told me, your beloved uncle who cares more about survival than anything else" seems rife for a death-by-Orochimaru speedrun.
 
What's stopping us from quietly asking Noburi to donate us a minute amount of chakra (enough to infuse/activate the Superchiller) once the battle is underway? I can't imagine Prime Hazou is so far away from the team that they can't transfer chakra.
 
What's stopping us from quietly asking Noburi to donate us a minute amount of chakra (enough to infuse/activate the Superchiller) once the battle is underway? I can't imagine Prime Hazou is so far away from the team that they can't transfer chakra.
We must infuse the SC before the battle. It takes far too long to do so after the battle.
 
Oro probably hasn't used a rapport-based strategy in actual years(decades?),so she's understandably surprised.

He's sort of affable with Kabuto, but then again there aren't really stakes there since he clearly does consider him useful but somewhat disposable

Chakra constructs imitating biology seems stable-but-fragile. They'll last a while if left alone, but collapse when stressed.
A bit jet of fire is unstable-but-robust, it won't last long, but you can't destroy it by punching.

A sealing array in the general vein of "deal 1 stress each round to chakra constructs in the zone" seems plenty fair play for a major project for an S-rank sealmaster near the peak of the art.

This matches my expectation, but you've articulated it much more clearly than I managed to.
 
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Going out on a limb a bit, but the other seals and seal arrays we've seen give precedent either take the form of an ongoing effect within an area delineated by seal elements around the edge of an affected area no larger than one zone, or a one-off pulse emitted by a seal (or array of seal elements arranged near each other) that burn out afterwards.
I would be surprised if it was within the power of paper sealing to affect anything further than one zone away from the seal elements themselves, though a multi-zone array with seal elements in every zone affected, while not something we've seen before, wouldn't strike me as tremendously improbable (and is mostly less useful than having a bunch of one-zone arrays anyway); likewise a seal array that affects its zone when activated and has a reduced effect in adjacent zones.
 
I don't know... The combination of "why don't you open with the winning move" and "why haven't you told me, your beloved uncle who cares more about survival than anything else" seems rife for a death-by-Orochimaru speedrun.
One wonders whether they would be correct to raise those objections. Why aren't we opening with the winning move?
 
One wonders whether they would be correct to raise those objections. Why aren't we opening with the winning move?

I saw one practical objection: the EM Rune Nuke would leave the rift trapped in a hellstorm for at least a week - plenty of time for reprisals. Tough to control OPSEC given the Leaf contingent, too.

Plus, Hazo's gotta unstag combat!
 
If we use a superchiller and the effect turns out to have a wider radius than the force dome (which seems very unlikely, but not as far as I know disproven) or a longer duration (somewhat plausible), it could be a much larger problem than anticipated.

Edit: or for that matter if the conditions inside are extreme enough to count as a TN 208+ attack against the dome.
 
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Okay, I've skipped the last couple pages in order to avoid dealing with the simmer that's happening. I'll go back later.


I'm asking everyone to take a breath on the sealing array question. There's a QM reply sitting in QUINOA for the others to sign off on; it's there instead of posted only to ensure 100% that we all have the same model of things. I'm confident that we do.

Short version: this is not the issue that it seems to me you all think it is based on the discussion. Please hold off for a little bit until we can get back to you and try to extend some charity / assume good faith.
 
One wonders whether they would be correct to raise those objections. Why aren't we opening with the winning move?
Orders from the Hokage not to poke at a very closely related subject, due to high risk that reckless use would cause the swift extinction of humanity - or possibly even all biological life - throughout the Elemental Nations and beyond.
 
[X] Action Plan: Armageddon Initiative

I will say that I'm nervous about the CP budget distribution: We have two S ranks here and neither of them can leverage their s ranks hacks effectively.

Orochimaru's bioseals dont work for his SCs and we havent budgeted for Tsunade's best jutsu. Therefore none of our 10x sannin SC is actually an s-rank combatant, and that's a major problem given how much CP is being allocated toward them.

We don't need need to worry about masses of generic jonin (especially after multiple RER barrages). Our real concern is having to deal with a handful of Akatsuki. To this end concentration of force and diversity of attack vectors are more important than marginal SC or generic jonin summons.

We far too many Orochimaru clones, and it seems a waste to have made Tsunade come all the way out here and then not even use her to her full potential.

We should be prioritizing Tsunade SC w/ Strength of a 100 and then diverse/esoteric Jonin summons over marginal Orochimaru SCs or generic taijutsu/RW spec Jonin summons.
 
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Tsunade gave her battle brother a sour glance and continued. "Two and a half miles away. Hazō and his clones do the finger-wiggly thing and make the blanks. I lug them to about a mile away from the target, the assault group in tow along with Hazō's shadow clones. The Hazō clones infuse the things and then immediately pop to reduce the number of people on the field while we're doing final prep. Fewer bodies, fewer chances of being spotted."

"I'm afraid you'll need my clones to activate the runes," Hazō said, keeping his face as straight as possible.

"Truly? How fascinating. Please, dear nephew, explain why you are the only one capable of triggering a rune."

"Seriously. Show us how, we'll do it, brat. We don't need to be tripping over a passel of chūnin clones."

"First, special jōnin, not chūnin. Second, firing the remote explosive runes isn't a simple thing. I can't teach it quickly, so I'll need to be the one taking the shot."

In point of fact, he needed to be the one taking the shot because there was no way in all the Paths known and unknown that he was going to allow this battle to happen without him. He had given up everything to be where he stood and he was not going to be brushed aside and sent off to the kids' table while the grownups played with his toys. Sure, Hazō was too young to hang in a fight between the Sannin and their peers, but when Jiraiya was eventually fished out of the afterlife, Hazō was going to be able to say that he had made a difference in the battle that saved him.

The two Sannin stared hard at Hazō. He held himself as straight as possible and met their gazes. Beside him, Mari showed only the cool composure of an experienced infiltrator watching an op right on the edge of going south.

Hazō, Deceit: 24
Tsunade, Deceit: ??
Orochimaru, Deceit: ??

"You are so full of shit," Tsunade said. "Trying to grab some glory for yourself?"

"Well said, sister. You are not nearly the liar you think yourself, nephew. If this is your best effort then I am disappointed in both you and your teacher." He looked down his nose at Mari.

Mari offered only an easy smile and a shrug. "What can I say? He's way too honest for the likes of me to help."

Hazō forced his jaw to unclench. "That's an uncharitable way to put it, Lady Tsunade. Yes, fine, I could teach you to activate the runes quickly enough and I could explain the aiming process and how to time the shots for best effect. Despite that, I have the most experience aiming and firing them and we need the first attacks to hit in exactly the right pattern for maximum effectiveness. So yes, I need to be the one taking the shot."

The mountain began to shimmer into existence around them as Tsunade's anger mounted. "Look, brat—"

Invisible fire wrapped itself around Hazō, burning away the in-pressing stone. Snakes glinted on the edge of visibility, swatting the mountain back into unreality. Tsunade twitched slightly in surprise, her eyes narrowing at Orochimaru and then Mari.

"Stand down, Sunny. Let the boy have his fun. It is true that he has more experience firing the things than anyone—unless you have spent time practicing with them? No? I didn't think so. Nor have I. He will either be better at it than we are or at least no worse. We shall need every tiny advantage for this battle and the extra risk his presence creates should be acceptable. If on the day we discover that it is not then we will revise this decision in more direct fashion."

"Revise it with my fucking fist."

"I believe that is what I said, yes. Granted, I have far too much couth and education to be as...plainspoken as you. Yet still the point was made." He turned to Hazō. "Very well, boy. You shall have your chance to raise a weapon on the day. What next?"

Wow. That had actually worked?! Cool!

"Um...right. After the RERs are fired, the assault group blitzes the target. The RERs should have cleared any traps from the immediate area of the fortress, as well as splotched any lookouts and outside guards. It may or may not have demolished the fortress itself, depending on whether it's reinforced with chakra effects or not." He grimaced. "Well, if they built it really heavy then maybe it would survive, but that's unlikely. I'll be overlapping the RER blasts so that the explosions reinforce one another. It's very unlikely that they've built something so strong that it won't be flattened. No, unless they've reinforced it with Five Seal Barriers, Force Walls, or something to that effect, the fortress will come down. Hopefully killing anyone inside and leaving nothing for the assault group to do, but the world is never that kind."

Tsunade snorted in agreement.

"The larger issue is what defenses Sasori may have set up," Orochimaru said. "The world has had two years to learn about and prepare defenses against the so-called Zoo Rush that we used to acquire the Arachnid Scroll from Rock. Were I in Sasori's puppet-worn shoes, I should have produced seal arrays that would pop chakra constructs in the vicinity, as protection against shadow clones and summons. Since such things will be the vast majority of the combat power in the assault group, this would be a problem."

"We could send forward a sacrificial vanguard," Hazō suggested diffidently. "Some genin-level summons, maybe one of my shadow clones since they won't have anything to do after the firing. Well, unless you want them to fire multiple times. The runes can fire multiple shots, but there's a short warmup period before each firing."

Tsunade considered it. "No, I think it's better to use the runes to clear the path, then we get in close. The idea of a vanguard isn't bad, though. Sure, we can send one of your clones in the lead. We'll be right behind him; if he pops then we know to watch out."

"Actually," Mari said, "there might be an option to consider there. May I ask, how are you two at singing?"

The Sannin cocked their heads in unison.

"Singing." Orochimaru's voice jammed a lengthy treatise of disdain into a single word.

"I'm assuming you know not to joke around at a meeting like this, so what's your thought?" Tsunade asked, brushing Orochimaru's further words aside.

"Well..." Mari smiled and laid out an utterly ludicrous plan that caused Tsunade to let a sincere laugh escape from her eternally grouchy face, and even caused Orochimaru to snort in amusement.

"I sing fine," Tsunade said. She jerked a thumb at her battle brother. "He can at least croak along on tempo. Sure, let's try it once to see if it works. If it doesn't work in practice, we don't do it on the day. On the day, if we see the ground and decide it's not a good idea, our sacrificial vanguard can pop and carry the message back for us."

"What about the approach?" Mari asked. "Miles through the woods, heavily laden. Easy to get spotted if they have any sentries pushed far out."

"We've done this once or twice," Tsunade said, although there was a hint of a smile in the words. "We've got some stealth jutsu and various stealth-specialized summons that can clear the road for us."

"And I have this," Orochimaru said, pulling a small box off it was fastened to his belt at the small of his back. He placed it on the table and lifted the lid so the others could see in.

"Is that..." Tsunade asked, the sentence trailing off as she studied the box's contents.

"Just so. I put quite a lot of work into it."

"Where'd you get it?"

"It has been on my person since well before you met up with us. The fact that you didn't notice should tell you all that you need to know."

"Huh." She made a complicated face—surprise, pleasure, relief...something? Guilt? Hazō wasn't sure. "You're sure it'll work for a whole group?"

"Yes, it will work," Orochimaru said, closing the box and hanging it back on his belt. "Despite that, we will still take River Run level precautions."
@eaglejarl I'm a bit confused about this chapter, and about the Sanin's tactical assumptions.
Given the importance of the upcoming plan based on their tactical plan, I would be really grateful if we could get some illumination on their thinking before voting closes.

At first it sounds like Tsunade and Oro plan to be at the RER firing position when the attack starts, as they suggest they activate the RERs.

Then they say they don't want to wait for the "short warmup period" for a second volley. This is surprising, unless they(and the assorted Jounin) can chakra-efficiently cover a mile of distance (~80 zones) substantially faster than the RER warmup period.

Further confusing me, unless our Battlegroup can jump the Akatsuki so fast that they can't even buff/SC/Summon, why are we rushing the Akatsuki position at all? It's dug in by Sasori(including possibly battle-ending anti-chakra-construct arrays). And if they don't come at us, it gives us more and more chances to explode them with RERs. And the longer it takes them to find us, the more time/chakra the Akatsuki will waste buffing to survive an RER, then having no-one to fight while the buff runs out, then spending Chakra to re-apply their buffs when we explode them again. Plus, it gives them opportunities to make mistakes like splitting up and trying to flee, which we can track with Ninja-radar, and punish by attacking isolated pairs with the entire might of the Battlegroup(Hazou can pop clones monitoring the Ninja-radar to give updates to a clone with the Battlegroup).

Anyway, the Sanin act like they've discarded these kind of tactics out of hand, and I don't understand why, which makes me worried I'm misunderstanding the situation/problem. Can you shed some light? Thanks.

EDIT:
FWIW, I think "assume Hazou asked this during last chapters planning meeting, and give a loose summary of the response we get" would be a very good way to handle this kind of question.

EDIT EDIT:
Some possible answers:
  • The "short warmup period" for RERs is more like 10 minutes than like 1 minute, so multiple shots are extremely unlikely.
  • Tsunade is extremely committed to making sure Itachi/Kisame don't have any spare turns to summon summons, who can potentially be contacted by the other summoner for a report.(But isn't she already planning to spend 12+ rounds of the Battlegroup sprinting 80ish zones to the battle area?)
  • The Sanin have some way(Oro's box?) to sneak the Battlegroup extremely close to the fortress, and plan to attack immediately after the RER volley, before Akatsuki can summon, cast SC, or use slower buffs.(But why did the Sanin think they'd be at the RER firing position?)
  • The Sanin just didn't think of these tactics, possibly not having fully internalized the tactical implications of runes, but they think it's a viable approach.
  • Some other thing that I have failed to consider.
 
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My pet theory is that Orochimaru is overestimating Sasori, like how he overestimated us when we revealed Icarus runes and how he showed incredibly high standards for what Kakuzu should "obviously" do.
 
Honestly speaking with so many runes and so many seals and so many preexisting chakra effects in play I wonder if mega sealing/technique failures may occur due to unexpected interactions from the RER bombardment.
 
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