- Location
- United States
Let's not forget that taking adequate safety precautions to work with a gamma-ray emitter would be literally impossible without metagaming.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
A question for the build junkies since we've got some time before the next vote: there's obviously a long term build that makes Hazou actually relevant in combat but, in the short to medium term, now that we have so much CP wouldn't the fastest way to scale into jounin or elite-jouin territory be to prioritize summoning elite dogs?
Bumping awareness (to get a summon out before getting hit), physique or a supplemental defensive technique (to prevent getting one-shot), and then some leg work on the 7th path to get the equivalent of an Asuma or Kakashi as a summon... Does that make us pretty combat relevant again?
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Separately: EM nuke is obviously crazy powerful, but since it relies on physics rather than magic, I'd expect there are low-hanging ways to no-sell it via other physics "imposition" style jutsu.
E.g. imagine a jutsu/seal/rune like Wind Element: Elementary Mastery - Gentle Breeze, which imposes a certain wind speed on all air entering an area. That plus the temperature EM would prevent the wind or cold from affecting you. If you skywalk up a few hundred meters and cast those two, the only thing you'd have to deal with would be any debris
Bumping awareness (to get a summon out before getting hit), physique or a supplemental defensive technique (to prevent getting one-shot), and then some leg work on the 7th path to get the equivalent of an Asuma or Kakashi as a summon... Does that make us pretty combat relevant again?
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Separately: EM nuke is obviously crazy powerful, but since it relies on physics rather than magic, I'd expect there are low-hanging ways to no-sell it via other physics "imposition" style jutsu.
E.g. imagine a jutsu/seal/rune like Wind Element: Elementary Mastery - Gentle Breeze, which imposes a certain wind speed on all air entering an area. That plus the temperature EM would prevent the wind or cold from affecting you. If you skywalk up a few hundred meters and cast those two, the only thing you'd have to deal with would be any debris
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- Location
- UK
It's not plausible that you don't get solids. In fact it's fairly implausible that a rune that isn't conservatively tuned produces much liquid directly, because the rune is pulling the atmosphere to vacuum.
For the jutsu, the first time this happens you'll be within a few degrees of the phase boundary, so the pressure will lower, the condensation temperature will fall, and it will quickly reach equilibrium at some sizable fraction of atmospheric pressure.
For a rune that isn't precisely tuned to that temperature, you would pull straight to vacuum, which if extrapolated, and checking for nitrogen, quickly results in reaching equilibrium where solids are produced directly, at a few degrees below the standard -210 degC freezing point.
Those solids aren't just going to sit around though; they'll be accelerated inwards. Initially I thought the de Laval limit was relevant here, so they'd hit mach 2-3 and quickly get ejected, but actually I now think it's more likely the area quickly fills up like a solid ball of dry ice. This is because the piston-like pressure of the outside air is being weakened by a factor equal to how much it densifies, so you're just left with the momentum from the entering air itself, slightly below mach 1.
So arguably, if I've thought this through correctly, this is potentially less of a WMD than the jutsu, because it fills up and then calms down for the great proportion of its existence. Which is great!... Except of course you can just cast it in the air and then it's also self-emptying like the original.
In a word: no.
Being less flippant, there are several problems with this idea. The first is that Hazō's Alertness is currently terrible (36, not even chuunin-level); jounin, based on the combat training stunts, usually have Alertness 60 at least. You can imagine jounin with Alertness in a 50-slot for pyramid reasons, but high fifties is probably the lowest you can have and still call yourself a jounin. That means that in order to start actually winning initiative in jounin-level fights, you need Alertness 60; we have a couple of Alertness buffs (chakdar, Banshee Lovers) that work on initiative in some circumstances, and if both of them work they let us get away with Alertness in the low fifties or even 49; but they don't always apply, and many jounin will have Alertness in the high sixties and/or their own Alertness buffs. So it would take a lot of work to let us reliably win initiative in jounin-level fights.
This is not necessarily an insurmountable problem - we could get to Alertness 60 base in 1164 XP if we spent on nothing else, and with FOOM that would only take us a few months. However, if we actually did that, we would have a problem, because in order to earn XP at a reasonable rate we need to unstagnate combat every 1000 XP, and that requires us to punch things personally; and that requires us to level our actual combat stats. Having a supplemental defensive technique, even if we found an amazing one that let us survive multiple rounds of jounin-level attacks despite our Ath being barely over the line of chuunin, doesn't unstagnate us unless we attack. (We also have 2000 XP worth of notes sitting somewhere off in abstraction-land that we need to swallow, so we're going to need to unstagnate Combat a lot.)
Finally, there's the problem that supplemental defensive techniques either boost Ath (in which case our best option is Substitution and it's more efficient to just level Ath than to push Substitution above half your Athletics) or require themselves being levelled to approximately the same level as the attack they're used to defend against. So if we want to avoid getting one-shot, there isn't really any better way than levelling Ath. (Physique has effectively no defensive benefit between 40 and 60 except when it's actually targeted by an attack, which is rare, so that doesn't help us.) Our summon can't really help with this problem, either, because keeping someone alive in MfD in a fight is very difficult and would basically prevent the summon from doing anything else if they could even do it; they could run a Block with their Standard every turn, but it won't work against every skill (e.g. a Block with a close combat skill won't protect us from a Fireball technique).
To sum up: we don't have access to a defensive technique that makes more sense for us than levelling Ath; we need to punch things in order to unstagnate combat in order to earn XP, for which we need Tai; and it would take long enough for this strategy to start actually working that we can't afford the delay before levelling our other combat stats.
(As a final note; we don't actually need to be relevant in combat. That's what we have teammates for. Our goal combat-wise is to do exactly as much combat as we need to to keep up with our unstagnations, and no more.)
- Location
- U.S.
My take on how ice will behave is that the ice will form solid masses rapidly. It's extremely fine snow if it crystallizes at all (it has only miliseconds between getting supercooled and impacting the interior), relatively clean conditions (much more air than debris, and dirt will not effectively coat surfaces because the surfaces keep changing), and vacuum conditions (duh), and high velocity of impact. This all means that incoming supercooled air will very effectively weld onto existing masses, and so you'll tend to get solid and reasonably contiguous ice masses that grow very quickly.
I also agree that, to my best understanding, we just get sonic flow, not supersonic. After checking more than a few sites, it seems to roughly be a consensus that gas flowing into a vacuum with zero obstructions will ultimately approach or reach the speed of sound. Choked flow conditions are frequently mentioned, and while I'm not exactly a expert on fluid physics it seems like that checks out. Supersonic flow requires expansion after reaching choked flow, and I don't think the interior of the AOE counts because the air is rapidly robbed of it's thermal/kinetic energy.
Wait. You raise a really good point here. It shouldn't be entirely liquid, should it? The triple point is at about 0.1 atm;
So if it locks the temperature into one vertical slice, here, then it has to be a mixture of liquid and gas.
Since it produces liquid, and is 1 atm or below, we know that the temperature/pressure region we're dealing with is this:
And since we know it is pressure limited, it's actually along this line segment:
Anywhere else, and it cannot be producing liquid, only solid or gas. And no matter where it is on this line, there still has to be >10% gas remaining. This is - wait. Partial pressures. The triple point of nitrogen is a little over 0.1atm, but oxygen is very close to 0atm. The outflow is going to be oxygen enriched.
I need to think about this. I did not anticipate any of this behavior. We may get firestorms.
- Location
- Yes.
[X] EM Nuke Rune Leaf, but add an explosive tag
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I feel like more plans should have "but add an explosive tag" as a rider, similarly to "but treasonously" and "but with Ami".
[X] Action Plan: Lunar Eclipse
Word Count: 399
Intended Duration: Until the assault on Moon
Word Count: 399
Intended Duration: Until the assault on Moon
- Bury the practice RER 2.0s
- Declare (1FP): Hazou advised Naruto to order Leaf Summoners to train CR and get the favor of their Summons, maximizing the chance of them summoning their Boss
- Concur with Orochimaru's plan.
- Request his note for rift-runes, or accommodations for accessing them if he's incapacitated.
- While traveling -- Is he willing to share the details of Akatsuki's attack on him in Leaf?
- Did they demonstrate any further capabilities then, or do they have capabilities not in his dossier that we should be aware of?
- Travel to the rally point and wait for Leaf. Sanity-check the rest with Uplift
- If Kagome's absence is noted, he opted to go to ground - he knows he's not a useful combatant.
- If pressed, acknowledge he's afraid of Orochimaru
- Visit Dog
- Meet with strong Dogs who might agree to join the Riftwar. (Optimize with the team, consult with Cannai.)
- Be respectful. Be mindful we're nothing like Kakashi.
- Emphasize the fight's importance. Note our service to Dog (message running) despite our war.
- There's an opportunity to support the Alpha, so he can smoothly return to Dog's war
- Accept any refusals gracefully.
- Prepare runic blanks for the assaults, we'll need Force Domes, Iron Earth, Air Leadeners, Ninja Radars
- Prepare a superchiller blank in secret
- Grind runic veterancy with any additional chakra. Prioritize reducing timeladdered ES checks until rerolls are unnecessary on RER 2.0, then infusions for Force Dome, Ninja Radar and RER 2.0 - ideally to the point where they can be timeladdered up once.
- Bury any practice runes
- Test how much earth the chakra pillar from a Force Dome can pierce.
- If Kagome's absence is noted, he opted to go to ground - he knows he's not a useful combatant.
- After Leaf arrives
- Discuss the attack plan on Moon with Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Mari
- Brief her on Hazou's runic capabilities
- If Mari agrees, bring up her ability to lock down multiple ninja with her genjutsu
- Based on the size of Leaf's forces and the available chakra, come up with an optimized plan for the battle.
- Ideally we'd lock down Moon with a Force Dome/Iron Earth rune, then send in refilled SCs of the three of you to capture their ninja. While we track and neutralize any runners with a perimeter of Ninja Radar runes
- Suggest that we attack anonymously, or as a false flag.
- We could potentially avoid having to kill them all to silence them for fear of AMITY counterstrike.
- Brief her on Hazou's runic capabilities
- Discuss the attack plan on Moon with Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Mari
- Head to Moon and attack.
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[X] Action Plan: Lunar Eclipse
Perhaps explicitly bring up the false flag or anonymized attack strategies if they are workable? Depends on the future outlook of the Moon ninja and the relevance/existence/avoidability of the AMITY response, I suppose.
Though I expect most "reduced attack performance" strategies to be, uh, objected to by our attackers given the risks and the crunch time + our solutions for the civilians are not relevant before winning the rift battle.
Perhaps explicitly bring up the false flag or anonymized attack strategies if they are workable? Depends on the future outlook of the Moon ninja and the relevance/existence/avoidability of the AMITY response, I suppose.
Though I expect most "reduced attack performance" strategies to be, uh, objected to by our attackers given the risks and the crunch time + our solutions for the civilians are not relevant before winning the rift battle.
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
[X] Action Plan: Lunar Eclipse
The stuff with the Snakes still seems overcomplicated. Just ask him to give them to us for now, since we won't be fighting; if he survives, we'll just give them back. Or better yet, ask him to put them in a location on the Human Path known both to us and to him.
Edit: Actually, would the notes be any use to him now? He already knows these runes and he doesn't want any other runecrafters to exist. The only possible use-case for these notes is teaching the runes to Hazou, no?
Or do you need the written-down notes for Rune A to get veterancy on a related Rune B, even if you already know Rune A?
Really?
Hm. I guess he doesn't exactly say we can take the notes, indeed. I'd assumed it was implied... (Also, @Paperclipped, there should be a comma before "nephew" in that quote.)
The stuff with the Snakes still seems overcomplicated. Just ask him to give them to us for now, since we won't be fighting; if he survives, we'll just give them back. Or better yet, ask him to put them in a location on the Human Path known both to us and to him.
Edit: Actually, would the notes be any use to him now? He already knows these runes and he doesn't want any other runecrafters to exist. The only possible use-case for these notes is teaching the runes to Hazou, no?
Or do you need the written-down notes for Rune A to get veterancy on a related Rune B, even if you already know Rune A?
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Fair enough
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Action Plan: Lunar Eclipse
We should also wrap them in our ELF/long duration explosives or something?
I don't think they expire at all, we should plan to return, wrap them in Force Domes and blow them up. But we don't have time to delay now.
Done
Nope.
Good point. He might not want Hazou to replicate his work, that would be the reason not to share. He might just give us the damn things.
- Location
- U.S.
Hmm, this plan might run into this issue...
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
There is a continuity error.Can you please clarify whether or not Orochimaru is aware that we have told the rest of Team Uplift about runes or not? There is conflicting evidence in chapters:
Whoops, you have already corrected that. However, there is another, somewhat subtler continuity error that Faflec pointed out:
So in chaper 693, we think to ourselves in a way that indicates Oro already knows that Team Uplift is fully read-in. Then Oro opens discussions about this, mentioning only Naruto and Tsunade, when in chapter 642 he becomes fully aware that we have told Team Uplift.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
There is a continuity error.
Whoops, you have already corrected that. However, there is another, somewhat subtler continuity error that Faflec pointed out:
So in chaper 693, we think to ourselves in a way that indicates Oro already knows that Team Uplift is fully read-in. Then Oro opens discussions about this, mentioning only Naruto and Tsunade, when in chapter 642 he becomes fully aware that we have told Team Uplift.
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Action Plan: Lunar Eclipse
Can we ask Orochimaru for more information on the nature of the fortress and for any updated information on the Akatsuki? (e.g. is Itachi down a foot)
Can we ask Orochimaru for more information on the nature of the fortress and for any updated information on the Akatsuki? (e.g. is Itachi down a foot)
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He'll be down six shortly.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
- Location
- Yes.
What about this part?
Oh. If this is not addressed either in or out of the story... That means, respectfully:
We're all going to die.
Let it not be said that we don't take QM feedback.
[X] Action Plan: Lunar Eclipse, but add an explosive tag
Word Count: ??
Intended Duration: Until the assault on Moon
- Declare (1FP): Hazou advised Naruto to order Leaf Summoners to train CR and get the favor of their Summons, maximizing the chance of them summoning their Boss
- Orochimaru
- Your proposed course of action is a good one, we have no modifications to suggest
- We suggest you give your research notes for rift-kicking and rift-catching to a trusted Snake to pass to Noburi in case you're incapacitated after the battle
- Sanity check the rest with the team
- Travel to the rally point and wait for Leaf
- Reverse-summon to visit Dogs that might agree to join the Riftwar. (Optimize with the team.)
- Be respectful. Be mindful we're nothing like Kakashi.
- Emphasize the fight's importance. Note our service to Dog (message running) despite our war.
- Accept any refusals gracefully.
- Prepare runic blanks for the assualts, we'll need Force Domes, Iron Earth, Air Leadeners, Ninja Radars
- Prepare a Superchiller blank in secret
- Grind runic veterancy with any additional chakra. Prioritize reducing timeladdered ES checks until there is no need for rerolls on RER 2.0, then infusions for Force Dome, Ninja Radar and RER 2.0 - ideally to the point where they can be timeladdered up once.
- Test how much earth the chakra pillar from a Force Dome can pierce.
- Reverse-summon to visit Dogs that might agree to join the Riftwar. (Optimize with the team.)
- After Leaf arrives
- Discuss the attack plans on Moon with Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Mari
- Brief her on Hazou's runic capabilities
- If Mari agrees, bring up her ability to lock down multiple ninja with her genjutsu
- Based on the size of Leaf's forces and the available chakra, come up with an optimized plan for the battle.
- Ideally we'd lock down their village with a Force Dome/Iron Earth rune, then send in refilled SCs of the three of you to capture their ninja. While tracking and neutralizing any runners with a perimeter of Ninja Radar runes.
- Brief her on Hazou's runic capabilities
- Discuss the attack plans on Moon with Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Mari
- Head to Moon and attack, but add an explosive tag.
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Hasn't he already shown us these? Do we need the originals for some reason?
This header is redundant with the following 'Reverse-summon to visit Dogs that might agree to join the Riftwar. (Optimize with the team.)' bullet point.
We have taken Iron Nerve imprints of the runes, that's something else. Research notes are still useful for us.
- Location
- U.S.
Wait, do we want to recruit Dogs, or grind runic veterancy?
As we saw in the last chapter, these actions are mutually exclusive and cannot occur at the same time, although we can spend some time doing one and then the other instead of monofocusing. I think we should make clear to what degree we do that, if any, as it is currently ambiguous and up to the QMs.
As we saw in the last chapter, these actions are mutually exclusive and cannot occur at the same time, although we can spend some time doing one and then the other instead of monofocusing. I think we should make clear to what degree we do that, if any, as it is currently ambiguous and up to the QMs.
