- Pronouns
- He/Him
Iff we are actually doing this with Leaf's help then IMO the chakra runes provide a much bigger buff to the Leaf attack force than the scrying runes do. I thought the scrying runes were mostly just for our benefit anyways?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wouldn't it also help if we try and take the rift ourselves since we'd be able to make more runes faster? Plus since a bunch of people where worried about not having enough substrate more XP would make it so we could level bones of creation faster if we need to
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- He/Him
I don't think it lets us cross the threshold of triple tracking so I'm not sure it speeds up research any, though it is true we would get Bones of Creation faster...
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I actually meant for when we assault the rift. I assumed that we would have to create and infuse more runes than we could do in a day which would lead us dangerously closes to Essies for a while
It absolutely does let us triple track rune research.
Source: I did all the math for the chakra budget and I remember
This is what I thought at first, but then I considered that our research has lately been constrained as much by the QMs' available time and energy as by Hazō's
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah OK pog, another good incentive then imo. Even ignoring the other benefits, it pays itself off in basically one more research cycle. (Not quite accurate but something like that.)
Hey everyone. Longtime lurker, great quest btw. Is there any concrete reason why you don't have sapient seals/runes yet? It should surely be possible for Hazo to make a computer with either one of these, and then program an AI. These constructs should be a great alternative to SC due to their permanence. Maybe you could even put an instance of Snowlake on it to give her some more time to interact with the world.
Now, regarding a different matter. I only read the QM posts, most of the time, so I have little clue. This must have been discussed before, but where is the Edo Tensei? Orochi knows it in canon, but I know this is nothing like canon, so what's up? I know Henge has been nerfed (which I approve of. I also think substitution should be nerfed ((by becoming a gejutsu)) because those moves are way too OP to be taught at school). Is Edo Tensei a similar case?
On yet another note, what license are the rules for this game distributed under? Could I, say, make a game using the document and then sell the game on steam? Adapt it to my tabletop game, that I then charge money for in a gameshop? etc.
Now, regarding a different matter. I only read the QM posts, most of the time, so I have little clue. This must have been discussed before, but where is the Edo Tensei? Orochi knows it in canon, but I know this is nothing like canon, so what's up? I know Henge has been nerfed (which I approve of. I also think substitution should be nerfed ((by becoming a gejutsu)) because those moves are way too OP to be taught at school). Is Edo Tensei a similar case?
On yet another note, what license are the rules for this game distributed under? Could I, say, make a game using the document and then sell the game on steam? Adapt it to my tabletop game, that I then charge money for in a gameshop? etc.
Not really at all IMO, it gives us a off-track to research Easy stuff, we actually are mostly limited on DoB intensive stuff. So it costs probably 4-6 of those cycles and gives us a track for Easy stuff. Not super great IMO, but we could research some stuff like Chakra Mapping and Runic JADLs costlessly
1. Hazo has not been able to implement this. Concrete reasons unclear, likely related to Hazopilot not being aware of such concepts and overt metagaming not being possible. A specific train of thought to get someone from 1200s feudal Japan to think of it would be needed. If you mean interacting directly with shadow clones, runes and jutsu seem separate in a way difficult to bridge without making more subdisciplines like a 3D version of Minatosealing.
2. Mythical and likely nonexistent unless people have been holding out on us and also everyone else. If it existed it would probably have come up by now.
3. Consult this site about licensing FATE and derivatives thereof.
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Actually, that wasn't satire; that was both my genuine instinctive reaction and my genuine rational assessment. I did deliberately play things up a bit by ignoring the Doylistic argument that you probably wrote this with your actual IRL partner in mind, but if I didn't know you'd written it, just from the text I come down at, like, 70% confidence that Moni is a kill-on-sight threat, and 30-40% confidence that she's hostile to Leaf (or so willing to use mind control that she might as well be).
Honestly, your clarification doesn't help much from that perspective. Pathogens (and probably vampire grass too) can't evaluate communication except in certain limited ways; 'convincing' pathogens not to infect you is like 'convincing' fire that it shouldn't burn, it's just control by another name. Plus, being so nice that things are willing to go massively against their own interests just by you asking them, without any kind of expected return, arguably is controlling them. Still, knowing that she didn't in fact mind-control Tsunade and that she is in fact Earl's beloved partner does make it a lot less likely that she's an immediate threat, rather than just a potential threat.
(Out of curiosity, have you read Significant Digits (the HPMOR metafanfic continuation)? That, and its Lethe Touch in particular, is where a lot of my concern about this kind of thing comes from.)
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I note that in a vacuum:
- Make a computer.
- Program an AI (to do some specific but trivial by human standards task).
- Magic up an AI.
Cramming the requisite amount of information processing into seals is probably not possible with brush-drawn seals, and certainly is not something we know how to do. Seals have displayed some weird behaviour with regards to information processing - I keep meaning to ask how Army of One knows what the image it projects looks like, or how Jiraiya's Instant Fortress seal knows what Jiraiya's face looks like - but trying to exploit that to make sapient seals seems like an astonishingly bad idea given that we'd have absolutely no clue how it works.
Also, bear in mind we don't have sapient AI now, and we have far more powerful computers than I'd expect sealing to be capable of achieving (again, while seal resolution is limited by brush size and human hand steadiness). You're asking Hazō, on his own at a feudal tech level, to do something the entire collective modern world can't achieve.
A note - Henge has been made nonexistent, not nerfed. (It was nerfed initially, then removed entirely when even the nerfed version (people only instead of objects) proved to be way too powerful.) As for Edo Tensei, as DanZapman said, we've never seen it used (unless Arikada actually wasn't bluffing, which seems implausible) and it probably doesn't actually exist.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] I want to do Scrying Runes before Chakra Runes
However, I wouldn't take that to intrinsically mean Hazou couldn't make a sealtech AI. It's just that he wouldn't do it by making a sealtech microprocessor and then writing lines of code in it. Instead, he'd need to approach the problem from a different angle, one more conducive to directly leveraging Sealing's talents. Although, even here I would be surprised to find such a feat within our grasp.
Taking a step back, the reason Edo Tensei was likely given this treatment comes from how, in a setting like this, it would be even more broken than it was in canon. Unlike in canon where the cost of a human sacrifice would deter the good guys from using it, Leaf would have no compunctions against using Edo Tensei to its fullest potential to gain a military advantage over its foes (MfD Leaf would still balk at using Leaf civilians for the task, but they'd have no problem kidnapping foreign civilians in secret). Moreover, canon Edo Tensei grants the resurrected ninja infinite chakra (in a game system where chakra is a pretty limited resource) and the caster of Edo Tensei can even control the resurrected ninja with absolute obedience (which would sound pretty tempting even to Leaf given that even it has problems with powerful ninja going crazy and then going missing). If it existed, it would by no means be a secret forbidden technique, it would be the centerpiece of Leaf's ascendance. Even if you strip out the add-ons, just the resurrection part of it would break the balance of power over its knee, so it's likely the QMs just decided it was never a thing in this universe.
Of course, it's not impossible that Orochimaru discovered it on his own, and is the only ninja who can use it, and has yet to feel inclined to share that fact with anyone else. I don't think we have a particular reason to believe that's true, but I suppose we can't rule it out. It becomes a moot point, though, if it's so secret that he'll never actually use it.
Making a computer sounds easy. Making a computer capable of modern feats of computation, much less AI, sounds extremely hard. It doesn't do us much good to create, like, a sealtech half-adder with a clock cycle of once per second. irl computers are useful because they can manage millions or billions of operations per second, with data storage to match, and it seems unlikely to me that seals will scale up to such extreme heights without a fight.
However, I wouldn't take that to intrinsically mean Hazou couldn't make a sealtech AI. It's just that he wouldn't do it by making a sealtech microprocessor and then writing lines of code in it. Instead, he'd need to approach the problem from a different angle, one more conducive to directly leveraging Sealing's talents. Although, even here I would be surprised to find such a feat within our grasp.
The official line from Leaf, when we first asked them about it, is that Edo Tensei was a propaganda scam Leaf pulled on the other villages, pretending they were getting back all their fallen war heroes in order to intimidate and panic the other villages. That is, according to Leaf, Edo Tensei never existed and the rumors of its existence are a deliberate fabrication. Nothing we've heard since we entered Leaf has contradicted this, not even as we sat in on discussions at the highest echelons of power, so it seems likely to me that they were telling the truth.
Taking a step back, the reason Edo Tensei was likely given this treatment comes from how, in a setting like this, it would be even more broken than it was in canon. Unlike in canon where the cost of a human sacrifice would deter the good guys from using it, Leaf would have no compunctions against using Edo Tensei to its fullest potential to gain a military advantage over its foes (MfD Leaf would still balk at using Leaf civilians for the task, but they'd have no problem kidnapping foreign civilians in secret). Moreover, canon Edo Tensei grants the resurrected ninja infinite chakra (in a game system where chakra is a pretty limited resource) and the caster of Edo Tensei can even control the resurrected ninja with absolute obedience (which would sound pretty tempting even to Leaf given that even it has problems with powerful ninja going crazy and then going missing). If it existed, it would by no means be a secret forbidden technique, it would be the centerpiece of Leaf's ascendance. Even if you strip out the add-ons, just the resurrection part of it would break the balance of power over its knee, so it's likely the QMs just decided it was never a thing in this universe.
Of course, it's not impossible that Orochimaru discovered it on his own, and is the only ninja who can use it, and has yet to feel inclined to share that fact with anyone else. I don't think we have a particular reason to believe that's true, but I suppose we can't rule it out. It becomes a moot point, though, if it's so secret that he'll never actually use it.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
No, I think it's pretty doable actually. I think I could trick Hazou into researching a rune that would train up and birth a lightcone-eating AI monstrosity in 500 words or less. The main ideas are pretty simple, basically common-sensical, and I think (?) Hazou is already familiar with the basics of linear algebra and calculus that'd be needed to formalize them. Just skip the general-purpose-computer step and implement the gradient-descent algorithms directly in the runic hardware.
Hmm, the only tricky part is the training data. Depends on how easy genjutsu runes are.
We should keep that in mind as a final fuck-you to deploy if the Five start breaking free.
Edit: Actually, depending on how bullshit chakra is, we may be able to create an AIXI Rune directly.
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Welcome!
Two quick thoughts, the QMs could easily rebalance things like unlimited chakra in the MFD version, and Oro didn't resurrect anyone, not even Hiruzen, to fight Pain/Akatsuki with the world and his life at stake, which strongly indicates he can't, given how close that fight was.
~Impossible without Hazo learning genjutsu. As for the rest, go ahead, I'm curious what you come up with.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Okay, now I'm actually curious about the amounts of compute runes have. We should make an NP-Solver Rune, time how long it takes it to solve Traveling Salesmen of various sizes, and estimate ChakrAI's FLOPS capabilities. That'd shed some light regarding the exact level of eldritchness that underlies the setting.
- Location
- Washington, USA
Sounds like that lack of self-preservation would tend to result in a runic failure.Article: However, AIXI does have limitations. It is restricted to maximizing rewards based on percepts as opposed to external states. It also assumes it interacts with the environment solely through action and percept channels, preventing it from considering the possibility of being damaged or modified.
- Location
- Liverpool
[X] Preference between Scrying and Chakra runes varies depending on the difficulty of both and if more med is needed
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Just implement it such that it thinks its actions have to pass through the bottleneck of the rune (i. e., that it could only affect what the rune does, and controls nothing else). Then it'd know that if its actions destroy the rune, it'd not be able to affect the world anymore (even if it would not model that as "I am destroyed"), which is bad for the expected utility.
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We could ask Mari, Kagome, Kei, and the rest whether we should do Chakra Runes (thus allowing us to triple thread SC research), or if we should work on the Scrying Runes first.
[X] Ask our team for their advice. We brought along sanity checkers for a reason.
[X] Ask our team for their advice. We brought along sanity checkers for a reason.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I don't think they're informed enough on the topic to be helpful here. Which is better depends on the entire probability distribution over our research plans and attack plans, and they basically don't have access to that information; most of it is OOC. We haven't even briefed them on the yoink-the-rift idea yet.