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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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DragonParadox said:
If it is capable of making a moral judgement about something as complex as worthiness than it is sentient and probably should not be rooted to a place for all eternity to guard out lore. I do not care if it is made out of souls runes, magic or the shed tentacles of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
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This is a bit of a stretch. It's magic (not "it's magic so it doesn't matter if we enslave it" but "it's magic, it doesn't even need to be sentient to do something like that"), it may not be any more sentient than a program that cross references your actions with a list it has, unless you want to argue that any sort of computer program is sentient? Yes, something like that could be portrayed as sentient, but it's not a requirement or even a guarantee.
Gronti already interpret orders just fine, yet nobody is arguing that is an act of slavery. Yes, you could make a self aware Gronti and that would be slavery, but what we're doing right now isn't and that's what I and @Dark as Silver are talking about right now.
Yeah, a full holocron could be slavery (or "duty" with how dwarves are the holocron is probably fine with it in the same way jedi are, and trying to force a slavery angle is making a problem when there isn't one), but that's not necessarily what we're after, just the general idea of some sort of check.
 
DragonParadox said:
  1. If it is capable of making a moral judgement about something as complex as worthiness than it is sentient and probably should not be rooted to a place for all eternity to guard out lore. I do not care if it is made out of souls runes, magic or the shed tentacles of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
  2. I am not afraid of making holocrons I just think that they are immoral, as is so much of the source material that gave it to us
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Does the Rune of Warning have a sentinent being inside it deciding what is and isn't a physical attack before warning the weilder?
I think its unjustified to say that a sentient being is the only way to achieve a holocron until we've actually researched it. And even if it is, nobody has said that they would refuse a less than universal solution that still meets a specific masters specific requirements. We can do the research and if it turns out the only way is enslavement of a sentient being then we can change our mind or look for a different way.

Considering soulcake has already mentioned that he's disinclined to use sentient beings as reagents and that I think this is kinda comparable, I expect that we're not going to be forced into a deeply immoral position.
 
Cursix said:
This is a bit of a stretch. It's magic (not "it's magic so it doesn't matter if we enslave it" but "it's magic, it doesn't even need to be sentient to do something like that"), it may not be any more sentient than a program that cross references your actions with a list it has, unless you want to argue that any sort of computer program is sentient? Yes, something like that could be portrayed as sentient, but it's not a requirement or even a guarantee.
Gronti already interpret orders just fine, yet nobody is arguing that is an act of slavery. Yes, you could make a self aware Gronti and that would be slavery, but what we're doing right now isn't and that's what I and @Dark as Silver are talking about right now.
Yeah, a full holocron could be slavery (or "duty" with how dwarves are the holocron is probably fine with it in the same way jedi are, and trying to force a slavery angle is making a problem when there isn't one), but that's not necessarily what we're after, just the general idea of some sort of check.
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Gontri are not capable of complex abstract thought, worthiness is very much an abstract concept. What if boils down to it for me is that we are playing a magician and a maker of magical works. The whys of out work is a mot more relevant then we we played some warrior with a magic sword. As for the holocrons being fine with it the problem is even if you are fine with voluntary eternal duty (which is itself a bit dubious) how do you know they will never change their minds. It's not like you would be able to take that being out of the rune box if they did decide they would like some other life.
 
The solution to Holocrons can easily be to make them bodies they can interact with and whatnot. But ultimately, the echo of a Runelord's mind is not going to be a full mind, and frankly speaking the static imprint of a Runelord's will to pass on the Rune is probably not going to be willing to go out for a walk when they have a job to do. If the memory imprint of a Runelord develops sapience and becomes a full intellect in their own right, sick, but that's so far beyond the scope of anything worth worrying about that we probably shouldn't even bother planning for it. if it happens, we'll deal with it then.
 
It isn't really a security issue for me. It's more just...it seems like the one that would get the most pushback? The costs make it pretty obvious it's the most "out there" option, and probably the sticking point that's going to be the most hotly debated issue among other Runesmiths if we pursue it. Which makes sense. The biggest objection to this whole endeavor would be that we're centralizing Runesmithing in the North around ourself, and collecting the knowledge of other Runesmiths in one place, i.e. our workshop, is probably closest we'd be getting to doing that, even if it isn't actual Runelore. And this is on top of the usual Runesmith skepticism of recording knowledge of the craft outside their minds. I don't think it's a bad idea per say, just...something that could wait a good while longer, until this whole project has normalized things like sharing knowledge and teaching Runelore outside of a master-apprentice setting. At that point, I imagine there'd be much less objection and suspicion around something like a library (not to mention we'd have probably developed a more secure method for those who do have security concerns). If we push it through as is I think it'd just cause unnecessary friction with more Conservative bodies, like the Burudin, which would hamper it's initial acceptance (and success) by the Runesmith community at large.
 
DragonParadox said:
Do you have actual canon info to back this up? Because from everything I recall it was very much a case of the rot going from most to least complex with the ceiling getting lower and lower like that trash compactor in A New Hope. That is why someone like Kragg is so much better than anyone else, becuse he is from four generations back and so he has seen less of the gentle curve into oblivion.
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I don't dispute that part. I just think it's easier to rebuild a knowledge base if the fundamentals are intact. It's probably easier to recover all the lost runesmithing knowledge if everyone still has access to the basic runes that everyone had by default in the golden age. I'd say one of the reasons Kragg would be better is because he was taught four generations back when they had lost less of the basic stuff.
 
TheDuke said:
And this is on top of the usual Runesmith skepticism of recording knowledge of the craft outside their minds. I don't think it's a bad idea per say, just...something that could wait a good while longer, until this whole project has normalized things like sharing knowledge and teaching Runelore outside of a master-apprentice setting. At that point, I imagine there'd be much less objection and suspicion around something like a library (not to mention we'd have probably developed a more secure method for those who do have security concerns). If we push it through as is I think it'd just cause unnecessary friction with more Conservative bodies, like the Burudin, which would hamper it's initial acceptance (and success) by the Runesmith community at large.
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We have word of Soulcake that this will always be an issue. There is no mitigating it.

Bite the bullet now or bite the bullet later. But it will always be a bullet.
 
DragonParadox said:
Gontri are not capable of complex abstract thought, worthiness is very much an abstract concept. What if boils down to it for me is that we are playing a magician and a maker of magical works. The whys of out work is a mot more relevant then we we played some warrior with a magic sword. As for the holocrons being fine with it the problem is even if you are fine with voluntary eternal duty (which is itself a bit dubious) how do you know they will never change their minds. It's not like you would be able to take that being out of the rune box if they did decide they would like some other life.
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My idea for this is based off the MRune of Kingship, which stores previous wearers "wisdom" for future wearers, so unless you want to argue that the MRune of Kingship is slavery too this is a moot point and forced purely to spite this course of action. And I brought up the duty part, because at some point it's probably easier to consider this overthinking, unless you want to vilify every force user as slavers too; it feels like you're trying to make an issue where there isn't one to dirty or fault the whole idea of storing knowledge.
 
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Cursix said:
My idea for this is based off the MRune of Kingship, which stores previous wearers "wisdom" for future wearers, so unless you want to argue that the MRune of Kingship is slavery too this is a moot point and forced purely to spite this course of action. And I brought up the duty part, because at some point it's probably easier to consider this overthinking, unless you want to vilify every force user as slavers too; it feels like you're trying to make an issue where there isn't one.
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We do not know how the master rune of kinship works or if it is even capable of making decisions I do not see why it would have to be capable of that in order to serve its function. To put it another way a book containing the collected works of say Plato is undeniably a store of his wisdom, but that does not mean it can pick out future philosophers.
 
DragonParadox said:
Gontri are not capable of complex abstract thought,
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General reminder, when the Miner was activated its first actions where:
1) Remove Snorri from its shoulder safely.
2) Destroy the scaffolding that surrounded it.
3) Ask for instructions from Snorri.

Gronti are in fact actually capable of problem solving and prioritising the safety of dwarves around them and their own ability to function even when they are not under specific orders..
 
The Master Rune of Kingship may just well be a recording device with a playback function.

The only really complex rune that something like a holocron might be possible would be the Master Rune of the Ages. Which would be something on a whole different level to unpack and work towards.

Dark as Silver said:
General reminder, when the Miner was activated its first actions where:
1) Remove Snorri from its shoulder safely.
2) Destroy the scaffolding that surrounded it.
3) Ask for instructions from Snorri.

Gronti are in fact actually capable of problem solving and prioritising the safety of dwarves around them and their own ability to function even when they are not under specific orders..
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We also know there is something alive within the Deep Magic.
 
DragonParadox said:
We do not know how the master rune of kinship works or if it is even capable of making decisions I do not see why it would have to be capable of that in order to serve its function. To put it another way a book containing the collected works of say Plato is undeniably a store of his wisdom, but that does not mean it can pick out future philosophers.
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Even assuming it works the way your example does, it can be retooled to "store" a dwarfs idea on what worthy is, then another rune can facilitate cross referencing that with the prospective student, possibly through the same sort of mind scan that the kingship rune uses. Again, it feels like you're purposely over complicating this to force the slavery narrative in bad faith.
Dutch said:
The Master Rune of Kingship may just well be a recording device with a playback function.

The only really complex rune that something like a holocron might be possible would be the Master Rune of the Ages. Which would be something on a whole different level to unpack and work towards.
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See above, if it's like that. It's not holocron tier but it serves perfectly well to lock or unlock a book or the like based on the worthiness of the prospective reader.
Edit: and keep in mind that the inspiration for our path to the rune of kingship is the everqueen.
Dark as Silver said:
We do? Could I get a source for that as I must have missed it.
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During Skarrenbakraz's crafting. Though it's incredibly up for debate as to how that extends to Gronti, especially since it resulted in Mhorni which is closer to an elemental.

Also Gronti interpreting orders is cited by Snorri during Mjnd of Things research. You can't just write off Gronti interpreting orders.
 
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[X] Plan: The Bird Is The Word
[X] Plan: Maximum 2.83 = 2

If we're going to go whole hog I prefer the one with the library.

Frankly, if we're going to go for Uber-Defenses we might as well make it worth defending. The other services make it valuable in a transient way, but a library of rune-adjacent lore makes all those defenses the only sane option.
 
Dark as Silver said:
We do? Could I get a source for that as I must have missed it.
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During the forging of Skarrenbakraz.
soulcake said:
It digs and digs and digs into the earth; grabbing and pulling until it hits upon something that does not yield before its hunger.
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soulcake said:
It heeds, called by the tune.
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soulcake said:
Something, a part, a fragment of an existence that has always been, slowly begins to crawl up from the depths.
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soulcake said:
Eyes form and see that which calls it.
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soulcake said:
Hands of rock reach upwards, grasping.
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Could anyone show me what plan "bird is the word" actually is? I only find the plan itself in the vote tally and I don't want to comb 30 pages...
 
Dutch said:
During the forging of Skarrenbakraz.
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Sorry, I'm going to wait until we've done actual research on this rather than going off of that.
Parts of could be the elementals we interrupted, hands of rock might be Snorri unwittingly tapping into the earth shaping powers of his equipment.
I agree that something funky is going on, but theres so many other possible explanations and so many other funky things that I'm not willing to accept any answer with confidence until we investigate.
 
Tobtorp said:
Could anyone show me what plan "bird is the word" actually is? I only find the plan itself in the vote tally and I don't want to comb 30 pages...
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[X] Plan: The Bird Is The Word
-[X] Food:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Lodgings:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Lodgings:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Shopping:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Defenses:
--[X] Marvellous
-[X] Aesthetics:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Classes:
--[X] Let Master Runesmiths disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish
-[X] Forum:
--[X] Make it part of the plan
-[X] Business:
--[X] Allow it:
-[X] Forging:
--[X] Use unused Forge Space:
-[X] Procurement:
--[X] Tournaments:
-[X] Library:
--[X] Extensive and Rare

In school will respond to people response to my post hopefully this evening
 
Tobtorp said:
Could anyone show me what plan "bird is the word" actually is? I only find the plan itself in the vote tally and I don't want to comb 30 pages...
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It's in the threadmark with all the other plans.
ACON said:
[] Plan: The bird is the word
I don't know why I named it that it just popped into my head.
-[ ] Food:
--[ ] Extravagant
-[ ] Lodgings:
--[ ] Extravagant
-[ ] Lodgings:
--[ ] Extravagant
-[ ] Shopping:
--[ ] Extravagant
-[ ] Defenses:
--[ ] Marvellous
-[ ] Aesthetics:
--[ ] Extravagant
-[ ] Classes:
--[ ] Let Master Runesmiths disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish
-[ ] Forum:
--[ ] Make it part of the plan
-[ ] Business:
- -[ ] Allow it:
-[ ] Forging:
- -[ ] Use unused Forge Space:
-[ ] Procurement:
- -[ ] Tournaments:
-[ ] Library:
--[ ] Extensive and Rare

4 Max
24 Actions
30 Size
34 Communication
28 Learning
10/10 Conservative (ignoring any overflow)
10/10 Radical (ignoring any overflow)

Yes I am mostly copying Plan: Durin's Dream but I feel that we should make use of all available tools for this event. Let's face it people we are creating what is essentially The Library of Alexandria this is one place where we should not hold back.
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Woltaire said:
[X] Plan: The Bird Is The Word
-[X] Food:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Lodgings:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Lodgings:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Shopping:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Defenses:
--[X] Marvellous
-[X] Aesthetics:
--[X] Extravagant
-[X] Classes:
--[X] Let Master Runesmiths disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish
-[X] Forum:
--[X] Make it part of the plan
-[X] Business:
--[X] Allow it:
-[X] Forging:
--[X] Use unused Forge Space:
-[X] Procurement:
--[X] Tournaments:
-[X] Library:
--[X] Extensive and Rare

In school will respond to people response to my post hopefully this evening
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You've probably overwritten your vote if you were originally voting for something else or multiple things.
 
Also please keep in mind that, much like holocrons in Star Wars, this "complex runes are slavery" issue is only actually there and a problem if the author decides to make it one, and since this isn't some edgy rational or deconstruction fic I really don't see that happening to punish us just because some people think holocrons are cool.
 
Dutch said:
We have word of Soulcake that this will always be an issue. There is no mitigating it.

Bite the bullet now or bite the bullet later. But it will always be a bullet.
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Well yeah, it'll always be an issue, but just because there will always be objections doesn't mean we can't build up a proof of concept and counters to those objections. For example, empirical evidence that sharing knowledge amongst Runesmiths has a beneficial effect (through, for example, evidence collected at our upgraded workshop), and recording that information in a way that can be reliably accessed and communicated is a natural extension of that. No matter what, there will always be staunch Conservatives with objections to something like this purely on the grounds that "it's Radical". But by the same token, there will probably be those of a more neutral bend that will side with us as long as we provide good arguments backed with a sufficient amount of evidence collected over a significant period of time. I get that waiting is a pain, but that's kind of just how things are with Dwarfs. Even leaving the argument itself aside, I imagine Snorri will feel a lot better about advocating for something like a library once he has actual evidence to support the claim.
 
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