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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Unless we start with it, I don't believe we'll ever actually get a library.

It would be nice to believe otherwise, but I also once believed that we would get around to increasing the size of the Hearthguard to better be able to help our fellow Dwarfs.
soulcake said:
Kings have the largest retinues on average, because a King has a lot of stuff he can send his retainers to do. Guard important places and people, act as messengers, protect his person during War, and a whole host of other stuff. The thing of having a larger retinue is its basically saying, I have taken on a lot of responsibilities and these guys help me fulfill them + I am important enough to warrant this many people defending me.

It's a political statement at its core just as much as it is a simple change of numbers.

The nuance is what you're gonna be having those guys doing. If they do nothing, it's wasteful, but if you're using them the way you have been Snorri reckons no one is gonna be too upset. It will likely stay that way as long as you don't infringe on the rights of Kings or powerful lords or what have you, and keep the Hearth Guard to being what is essentially Snorri's personal beatstick when in times of war but are otherwise roaming the North doing good deeds and helping the average Dwarf.

Look, if you keep them to the spirit of their founding purpose you can get away with a lot, in the Far North at least. That's a consequence/benefit of your high Standing in the region. Maybe. Snorri thinks that at least.

By his reckoning 300 is fine, as long as they're always out doing something. Going above that is gonna say something, but what that entails is on you to make clear through your actions.
Who knows, you may get other options if their numbers increase higher.
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But now, even two years after the explicit QM confirmation that we could easily go up to 300 members without even a sniff of controversy, we're nowhere close to that number.

Instead we have deliberately hamstrung our ability to help Dwarf-kind all that time.

All I see in this vote is people doing it again. Letting the fear of potential consequences stop us from doing things that would tangibly improve the lives of our kinsmen.
 
Ashmaker said:
Unless we start with it, I don't believe we'll ever actually get a library.

It would be nice to believe otherwise, but I also once believed that we would get around to increasing the size of the Hearthguard to better be able to help our fellow Dwarfs.

But now, even two years after the explicit QM confirmation that we could easily go up to 300 members without even a sniff of controversy, we're nowhere close to that number.

Instead we have deliberately hamstrung our ability to help Dwarf-kind all that time.

All I see in this vote is people doing it again. Letting the fear of potential consequences stop us from doing things that would tangibly improve the lives of our kinsmen.
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It's not the controversy, it's removing elders from the population. Some need to stay with their clans to guide and teach them, also manage stuff. Can't steal all the smart people, society kinda needs em.
 
Ashmaker said:
All I see in this vote is people doing it again. Letting the fear of potential consequences stop us from doing things that would tangibly improve the lives of our kinsmen.
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One counter though, is that alot of others do not want to make a library until Snorri invents a Holocron (because nothing short of a Holocron would be secure enough for Snorri, to them), which by WOG, probably enters possibility around the same time Snorri can reform his workshop even further. Therefore, the Library will have soft votes going for it every time a massive Mind of Things pushed is done, because the Holocron is likely going to be one of the grand projects of the Mind of Things lobby.

There isn't a similar soft-vote for the Hearthguard, unless Way-warding exerts such pressures that it overules some of the very, very vocal voices against any Hearthguard expansion period who would rather even see it downsized, and would go to great lengths in thread to rally against it. Also, Hearthguard expansion has to come in turn plans, and winning turn plans tend to try to appease as many parties as possible. Library Expansion probably would come in it's own unique vote because it would come about every 20 turns or so.
 
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TimEd said:
This holocron business looks like it will become just become another Berserker gronti.

The bird is the word.
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Seems a lot simpler than the gronti considering we just need to do some research to finish it rather than collecting a T5 ingredient, wait dozens of turns to get enough adamant to make it and do a ton of research for it on top of that due to all the feature creep.

And is that supposed to be a vote?
 
[X] Plan: The Bird Is The Word
[X] Plan Max Maxium

I would reiterate that we should use all 4 MAXIMUMs now and not plan to implement them in the future. Anything we suggest we do later, we should do it now. What Snorri is doing now is effectively a Masterpiece/Grandmasterpiece of his life, and he will be insanely averse to even consider changing it in the future.

The amount of things we have reforged or reworked is, so far, 0. Once Snorri has completed something he does not improve or change it. If he feels it could be better, he replaces it outright.
Xepheria said:
Narrative reasons. The maximum option for procurement essentially restructures the way that runesmiths in the region go about getting their reagents to be more like a traditional guild structure, and I'm incredibly leery about that. I'd like for the spirit of a runesmith to be preserved in this institution - essentially, allowing them to choose rather than imposing our structures on how they should conduct their business.

And yes, for the sake of Snorri's general stress levels I don't want to ride right up to the 4 Maximum limit, because honestly it's genuinely quite saddening to see him doubt himself.
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I don't agree with this at all. With the 'Hiring' option, we aren't forcing Runesmiths or Runelords to go through our channels at all. We are in no way whatsoever forcing them to choose our procurement options. It is a service we are making available to Runesmiths.

It is 'forcing' in the same way that someone opening a restaurant is 'forcing' you to eat at their place by making their service of food providence available to you. They created a structure by which you can gain your food in an alternate and likely superior manner to what you had before, and are not dragging you to the restaurant to eat or else. This argument of it being 'Forcing' is only valid if you consider building extravagant Food Infrastructure to be Snorri forcing prospective Runesmiths to be eating on campus or else, or if Snorri building Extravagent Shopping areas to be him 'Forcing' a captive market to go through his channels.
 
[X] Plan: The Bird Is The Word
[X] Plan: Durin's Dream
[X] Plan All the Facilities, 3.88 maximum
[X] Plan Max Benefits
[X] Plan Max Maxium
 
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@soulcake, just to assuage my fear, there won't be any RER or smth that would push us down the slope of 4 MAXIMUMS, right? Because the plans that have us go full balls to the wall make me nervous.
 
[X] Plan: Maximum 2.83 = 2

While I would prefer no library as well, the "let masters teach" bit feels wrong because of this part:

"If a Master Runesmith wishes to share a Rune they have developed you will, proper vetting, give them access to the Workshop's facilities to do so."

I don't feel like that's something Snorri would want to get into, as a lot of previous votes have characterized him as avoiding making these sorts of calls.
 
TheDuke said:
I don't think a library is an inherently bad thing, but it's...just a bit soon, y'know? Even getting Runesmiths to share information related to their craft amongst themselves in anything other then a Master/Apprentice setting is pretty radical at this point in time, let alone recording that information for anyone that can get their hands on the book to read. I know it's daft to argue about what might "go over the line" and all that, but I feel like it's probably the one option out of all of them that strongly goes against current Runesmithing doctrine. An open forum, not a big deal, classes, a bit out there but not an unheard of concept, procurement and business, definitely odd but mostly in a gray area. But something like recording Runesmithing knowledge, even if it isn't actual Runelore, and collecting it all in one place is something that genuinely grates against how Runesmiths normally do things, which is pretty clearly reflected in it's Standing cost. Even the Radicals aren't a fan of it. Maybe further on down the line, or once we've developed a sufficiently excessive way of securing that knowledge once it's recorded, but now just doesn't feel like the right time.
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It says in the options that 1/3 library would be nothing groundbreaking ( and there is no standing cost until 1/2 maximum). We wouldn't push something totally new, and we are probably building ridiculous defenses for the workshop. Dwarfs aren't stupid and they should be able to recognize the context in which this library is allowed to exist.

This isn't a choice between keeping the status quo and suddenly upending everything dwarfs think about recording knowledge by building the smallest possible but still existing collection of books. With the lowest option we would take a stance against the currently prevailing (I'm guessing, since Thugni gave us one and we and our students have been using them for a long time without anyone complaining) opinion, that books are actually not a terrible thing for Runesmiths to use and that recording and reading about non Runelore stuff in them can be really useful, as long as you are careful that the knowledge doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

[ ] [Forger] Books.
Runesmiths do not write things down regarding Runes willy nilly. Tomes containing Runic lore are cryptically written and layered with some of the most complex ciphers, mind benders and puzzles a Master's mind can conjure, and even then you are loath to put such hard-won knowledge down on something so, relatively, easy to discover or steal! But the benefit is great, though it will doubtlessly rankle at the most Conservative members of the Guild.
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We already had the option to write down actual Runic lore, and Snorri didn't think that it was too radical as long as he took the proper precautions. And there seems to be both precedent and a way to make the knowledge only available to the ones that deserve it. And that's several steps further than what we would be doing here.
 
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BungieONI said:
That is the text from the Rune of Warning and I take it to mean it is not possible to make a Rune of Warning that does that and that quote is not a general statement on Runes and Runecraft as a whole. Soul has gone on record to state that the Rune of Warning can only function on visible markers, in line with that quote. I think my point is supported by it being a pretty simple rune, untouched by most of the complexities available in Mind of Things.

As for the capability under these rules how would you do it?

Also, why do you want the library right now, I don't think I ever managed to see that in the rush of the thread?
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It is also on the Rune of Enemy Detection, Alarm and Immolation. So its not a one-off thing.

But if I were to make a book? Written in a cryptic and vague way only an elder could manage. Then ciphered, ciphered again and ciphered a third time at minimum. The book is to be stored in a particularly designed part of the workshop that is heavily reinforced, sealed and runed with the Rune of Enemy Detection, Rune of Terror and Rune of Alarm.

The books themselves have a Gromril cover and lock. On the lock is a Rune of Locking keyed to a specific Rune of Opening than is only ever temporary inscribed on the key. Requiring a Runesmith to reactivate it every single time.

On the book itself the Rune of Immolation, set to activate if the book leaves the Runesmith's private library (except maybe with some exceptions), is touched by a anyone not a Dwarf, anyone not a Runesmith, anyone who triggers the accompanying Rule of Enemy Detection or if someone turns a page without completing a security check. The Rune of Enemy detection is keyed to anyone dressed or carrying markers of Chaos or Hashmut worship (or anyone not a Runesmith if you want to go that route).

For the security each page is adorned with a drawn rune at the bottom of the page, possibly also ciphered. If the reader tries to turn the page before naming the correct rune, the Rune of Immolation will activate. Destroying the book. Depending on the contents of the book, the runes drawn can be rarer.

On particularly sensitive stuff we can put a Master Rune of Misfortune. Which flat out irrevocably curses someone if they come into possession of the item if they weren't specified (by name, clan or profession) by the creator of the rune. Which causes them to fail otherwise successful actions up to three times per day.

And those are just my 6 in the morning thoughs.
 
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