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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
Actually, that's not true. Her model of Hazō just has to spin on the same dime.
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She would have to model not just us, the players, but you, the god-like being who writes her very thoughts into existence.

Velorien said:
"No!" Mori's eyes blazed. "I will never surrender control to something just because it's more real than me!"
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Then again, maybe that won't be so hard. It sounds like she's already halfway there.
 
Velorien said:
I set out north with a force of 214 Isan ninja. As Cloud scouts had no way to predict an assault from the south, our initial victories were overwhelming. However, since my chūnin escorts and I were the only skywalker users, it was impossible to prevent escapees from warning forces further up the coast
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speaking of which, the attrition rate must have been enormous, if cloud had a decent number of skywalkers they could have easily retaliated while the isanese were hopeless to fight back.
who wants to practice Ami's method of retaining control by telling Yuno that her village just suffered a major decline in population once Hazou finds out?
 
Velorien said:
Negotiations with the Isan Clan Council were brief. After three days, I set out north with a force of 214 Isan ninja.
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Should I be worried as to what is hidden behind these two sentences. Because I am definitely worried.
Velorien said:
"In recognition of the ancient bonds of friendship between our two villages…"
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roflmao
Velorien said:
for reasons of natural security,
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Should this be "national security"?
_The_Bomb said:
Was that some kind of code?
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Maybe new official history is about to be dug up.

"There never was a war with Eurasia."


Anyway...

We should warn Mari that Ami is back, with all that that entails. Whether there's anything we can say to Ami that will dissuade her I find questionable.

By the way, why is everyone so insistent on maintaining SC opsec with Ami? Are you saying that Ami doesn't know about Snowflake being (partially) independent from Kei and/or the reasons for that being the case? Or which SC secrets are y'all thinking of?
 
Twinnstars said:
Didn't he inspire it way back in the evenstar lead socials whammy we laid on Mari?
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Yes, but to him that was a metaphor, in an ordinary "there are many facets to each person" kind of way. It is probably beyond his imagination that it has become literally true.

Black King said:
I mean...kinda not? Isn't it established that Ami had very little contact with Kei and was freezing her out? And she only feels comfortable now with her due to Mari's actions and due to Kei now being in a completely different village/political situation?
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. Ami started freezing her out when Kei returned to Mist, in the belief that their relationship was an exploitable weakness for Mori elders seeking to influence Kei.
 
Any way we since we are allowed to invoke non-linear time we should be writing an EJ plan not the Ami one
 
Noumero said:
does, you just need to put the phrase in quotation marks, same as Google. It sometimes does weird things if any words in the phrase are shorter than three characters long though, IIRC
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I guess every time I've tried it I must have had short words, because it inevitably searches for the words independently.

Oneiros said:
Any way we since we are allowed to invoke non-linear time we should be writing an EJ plan not the Ami one
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You can do both! @Velorien offered to write the Ami scene.
 
Thank you, @faflec, for reminding me of the idea, and you, @OliWhail, for conceiving of it to begin with.

[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
Word count: <400
Humour index: 30%
  • (After Ami, follow this plan.)
  • Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next topic, ensuring it works even given that she helped optimize it.
    • Spend the favour token, if necessary.
    • If Ami refuses, try Door-in-the-Face, then Pragmatic, then Adversarial.
    • Avoid mentioning IN and Asuma's inability to control Orochimaru.
  • Subject: Suppose there was news that might induce anger and counterproductive desires in Ami. How should you convey it to minimize such outcomes?
  • Approaches:
    • Door-in-the-Face: Start by conveying the situation's emotional truth and the sanctions taken to avoid its recurrence.
      • Conceit: Lead with the emotional impact so Ami knows what to expect, preparing her to process it constructively. Then frame it as already "settled", requiring no further action.
      • Con: Might prime her to view it in the worst light.
      • (Clarification: "Sanctions" mean Kei cutting ties with Mari. "Emotional truth" is Kei feeling that Mari sacrificed her for Hazou.)
    • Foot-in-the-Door: Chronological description that ends by focusing on the sanctions, vividly describing their effect.
      • Conceit: Provide Ami the experience of righteous justice and catharsis vicariously — no need for active action.
      • Con: Ami might consider the sanctions insufficient — bad combination with ending on an emotional high.
    • Factual: Recount the events objectively, without opining.
      • Conceit: Trusting Ami to act fairly and constructively.
      • Con: Ami's "fairness" might disagree with yours.
    • Empathetic: Draw parallels between the situation and some of Ami's actions.
      • Con: Ami might disagree with the parallels, or refuse to care about so-called "hypocrisy".
      • (Clarification: Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. Also, Ami invented the FGP and lets Kichi manipulate people into it, all to escape Oro.)
    • Pragmatic: Detail how counterproductive acting on the initial desires would be. Pivot to discussing constructive responses.
      • Cons: Ami might consider the counterproductive actions necessary.
    • Bargaining: Present your best-light interpretation of the situation.
      • Con: You expect Ami to disagree.
      • (Clarification: Mari did her best to save everyone, and it did work. Also: Oro might've learned of Snowflake independently later; this way, you at least had forewarning.)
    • Adversarial: Promise to take sanctions against Ami should she act on her desires, and/or ask to stay her hand, for a favour.
      • Con: Damages your relationship with Ami/indebts you.
      • (Clarification: "Sanctions" might range from refusing to cooperate with her projects to actively obstructing them to withholding FOOM to broadly damaging her in-Leaf position.)
    • Distracting: Stage a novel major crisis, leaving everyone too preoccupied for (this) drama.

@Velorien, does that meta-approach sound particularly entertaining to you?
 
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Noumero said:
Thank you, @faflec, for reminding me of the idea, and you, @OliWhail, for conceiving of it to begin with.

[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
Word count: TBD
Humour index: 30%
  • Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next part of your conversation, so that it works even taking into account that she helped optimize it. Spend the green favour token if necessary.
  • Subject: Hypothetically speaking, if Mari were to put Kei in danger in a way that Kei considers unforgivable, how should you describe the situation to Ami to minimize the chance that Ami would seek to destroy Mari?
  • Approaches:
    • Door-in-Face: Lead with a one-sentence summary that conveys the emotional truth of the situation as felt by Kei, and what sanctions she took against Mari.
      • Conceit: Frame the situation as already "settled" by Kei's agency. Put the brunt of the emotional impact at the beginning so Ami knows what to expect and could integrate the rest of the information in a more constructive manner.
      • Con: Ami might integrate the information in the worst light instead.
    • Foot-in-Door: Inverse of the above. Describe the situation chronologically. Focus on Kei's sanctions at the end, describe their effect on Mari.
      • Conceit: Make Ami feel a sense of vengeful justice and catharsis vicariously, with no need for active action.
      • Con: Ami might feel that Kei's sanctions weren't enough, and the talk would end with her at an emotional apogee.
    • Factual: Describe only the facts, no opinions and no attempts at framing.
      • Conceit: Ami is a reasonable person, and/or no attempt to frame it cleverly would help.
      • Con: Ami might not be reasonable around the subject of Kei.
    • Empathetic: Draw parallels between Mari's actions and some of Ami's actions that you think are conceptually similar.
      • Con: Ami might disagree that the parallels are similar, or refuse to care by declaring the concept of hypocrisy incoherent.
      • (Thoughts: One, Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. Two, Ami inventing the Final Gift Programme and letting Kichi manipulate people into it, all to save herself.)
    • Best Interests: Enumerate all the ways that killing Mari won't help Kei.
      • Cons: Ami might consider Kei's opinion irrelevant in this regard. Appeasement is an inherently weak line of argument.
    • Adversarial: Declare that Mari is under your protection. You won't let her hurt Kei, and you won't let Ami hurt her. List the sanctions you'd take against Ami should she act around you, and/or ask to abstain from interfering as a favour.
      • Con: Damages your relationship with Ami.
    • Distracting: Don't describe the situation, and instead stage a major crisis that would leave everyone too preoccupied to spend the time on drama or catching up.
  • Proceed according to Ami's advice.

@Velorien, does that meta-approch sound particularly entertaining to you?
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Very much so.

No promises as to whether it will save the day beyond the wildest dreams of normal people or, in defiance of probability, make things even worse.
 
Noumero said:
Thank you, @faflec, for reminding me of the idea, and you, @OliWhail, for conceiving of it to begin with.

[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
Word count: TBO
Humour index: 30%
  • Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next part of your conversation, so that it works even taking into account that she helped optimize it. Spend the green favour token if necessary.
  • Subject: Hypothetically speaking, if Mari were to put Kei in danger in a way that Kei considers unforgivable, how should you describe the situation to Ami to minimize the chance that Ami would seek to destroy Mari?
  • Approaches:
    • Door-in-Face: Lead with a one-sentence summary that conveys the emotional truth of the situation as felt by Kei, and what sanctions she took against Mari.
      • Conceit: Frame the situation as already "settled" by Kei's agency. Put the brunt of the emotional impact at the beginning so Ami knows what to expect and could integrate the rest of the information in a more constructive manner.
      • Con: Ami might integrate the information in the worst light instead.
    • Foot-in-Door: Inverse of the above. Describe the situation chronologically. Focus on Kei's sanctions at the end, describe their effect on Mari.
      • Conceit: Make Ami feel a sense of vengeful justice and catharsis vicariously, with no need for active action.
      • Con: Ami might feel that Kei's sanctions weren't enough, and the talk would end with her at an emotional apogee.
    • Factual: Describe only the facts, no opinions and no attempts at framing.
      • Conceit: Ami is a reasonable person, and/or no attempt to frame it cleverly would help.
      • Con: Ami might not be reasonable around the subject of Kei.
    • Empathetic: Draw parallels between Mari's actions and some of Ami's actions that you think are conceptually similar.
      • Con: Ami might disagree that the parallels are similar, or refuse to care by declaring the concept of hypocrisy incoherent.
      • (Thoughts: One, Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. Two, Ami inventing the Final Gift Programme and letting Kichi manipulate people into it, all to save herself.)
    • Best Interests: Enumerate all the ways that killing Mari won't help Kei.
      • Cons: Ami might consider Kei's opinion irrelevant in this regard. Appeasement is an inherently weak line of argument.
    • Adversarial: Declare that Mari is under your protection. You won't let her hurt Kei, but you won't let Ami hurt her either. List the sanctions you'd take against Ami should she act around you, and/or ask to abstain from interfering as a favour.
      • Con: Damages your relationship with Ami.
    • Distracting: Don't describe the situation, and instead stage a major crisis that would leave everyone too preoccupied to spend time on (this) drama or catching up.
  • Proceed according to Ami's advice.

@Velorien, does that meta-approch sound particularly entertaining to you?
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This sounds very entertaining!

[X] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
 
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Noumero said:
Subject: Hypothetically speaking, if Mari were to put Kei in danger in a way that Kei considers unforgivable, how should you describe the situation to Ami to minimize the chance that Ami would seek to destroy Mari?
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Ami may try to make arguments to the vein of "if Mari is already destroyed, I won't seek to destroy her"; it may be necessary to account for this.
 
_The_Bomb said:
Is this some kind of friendlyness aura? Some kind of positive mental influence?
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Yes and we have seen this before, Hiruzen did something like that here:
Velorien said:
The Hokage… was Hazō's grandfather. Not Kurosawa Ginrei, of whom he knew only the name. Not Izuki Jirō, who had passed away long before Hazō's birth. The Hokage was Hazō's grandfather as he ought to be, with the overwhelming but peaceful strength of an oak tree, decades of wisdom piled up like logs against a hard winter, and kindness to warm you like a fireplace if you were ready to show the proper respect. The rich timbre of the Hokage's voice complemented his all-encompassing aura, turning the room into a space that felt safe because it was under the Hokage's absolute control.
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Velorien said:
There was less wood in the Hokage's voice now, and more stone, reminding Hazō that he and they were allies of convenience at best, one step short of enemies, and that the warmth was not for them. He had to shake off the feeling that he'd just been shut out in the cold and needed to try to earn the Hokage's approval as fast as possible in order to be let back in.
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And Ami here:
Velorien said:
Ami was watching him. Her attention was intense enough to drown in. He thought he could feel her body heat all the way across the table.

She was right there, waiting for him to want her. Warm. Welcoming. Willing.
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Velorien said:
Hazō snapped into his polite rejection stance so hard it hurt. He poured every scrap of lucidity into staying there.

Gradually, familiar Hazōness returned. Matter over mind. He was Gōketsu fu—He was Gōketsu Hazō, and not even a jōnin got to mess with his feelings. Ignoring Ami, because right now it was both necessary and deserved, he took the time to breathe and recover his composure.

Meanwhile, she had pulled back, and was watching him with dispassionate curiosity, like Keiko watching Kagome-sensei cook when she was bored.

"Pupil dilation two millimetres above projected. Breathing rate thirty-seven breaths per minute, estimated. Muscle tension readings suspended due to risk of Iron Nerve contamination. Response patterns match… hm. Conditioned resistance. Noted for investigation."

"That was out of line, Mori," Hazō said as calmly as he could manage. He'd decided at the outset that he was going maintain mental balance come hell or high water, above all other priorities and concerns, and even if Ami was going to bat him around like a damned cat playing with a mouse, he could at least recover with grace.

"What you did," he said, "was like using genjutsu without permission. It's not something you do to an ally."

"Apologies," Ami said neutrally. "Experiments designed with the aid of the Frozen Skein do not always properly account for the sensitivity of internal experiences. Though technically, the level of stimulus was quite low compared to focused seduction. Nothing more than a few basic body language techniques. Most of the work was done on the subject side, with myself in a passive role as a facilitator. I appreciate, however, that subjectively it may feel invasive."
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It's probably Jonin Aura stuff used positively.


[X] Adopt Ren
Let's safe Aunt Ren! Clan Goketsu! A home for treason!
 
faflec said:
Ami may try to make arguments to the vein of "if Mari is already destroyed, I won't seek to destroy her"; it may be necessary to account for this.
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Good point. How does this look?
Noumero said:
Hypothetically speaking, if Mari were to put Kei in danger in a way that Kei considers unforgivable, how should you describe the situation to Ami to minimize the chance of Mari being destroyed?
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Are there any other such loopholes? I recall she got me with one on a previous plan.
 
Immortal Lurker said:
I would like to take this moment to wish the thread a happy sixth birthday!
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Thank you! It's been a wild ride and I look forward to six more. You people, the mad lads and ladies and others who make up our audience, are what make me want to keep writing this. You are an island of beauty on the internet -- you are kind to one another, mature, funny, creative, and an absolute pleasure to be around. Thank you for everything.
 
Sentient Tree said:
Shouldn't we be more vague than this? We're basically telling her what happened at this point.
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Maybe. We do need to provide some information for the approach to bear fruit, and "hypothetically speaking" does a lot of the work here. The conceit is that it would serve as an indicator for her to switch into an analytical/meta-cognitive mindset instead of directly engaging with the situation. In addition, it plays well with the ninja culture's careful dancing around with implications. We've repeatedly observed that verbally providing some degree of plausible deniability (with regards to e. g. our treason) allows other actors to engage with us on a more reasonable, restrained level, whereas acknowledging the truth of something frequently leads to immediate drastic action.

Which is why I think a semi-vague description of the situation preceded by "but it's only a hypothetical" should work here, even though Ami wouldn't be fooled by it and would already have most of the information.

But by all means, I'd accept a more vague yet still functional phrasing.
 
Noumero said:
Maybe. We do need to provide some information for the approach to bear fruit, and "hypothetically speaking" does a lot of the work here. The conceit is that it would serve as an indicator for her to switch into an analytical/meta-cognitive mindset instead of directly engaging with the situation. In addition, it plays well with the ninja culture's careful dancing around with implications. We've repeatedly observed that verbally providing some degree of plausible deniability (with regards to e. g. our treason) allows other actors to engage with us on a more reasonable, restrained level, whereas acknowledging the truth of something frequently leads to immediate drastic action.

Which is why I think a semi-vague description of the situation preceded by "but it's only a hypothetical" should work here, even though Ami wouldn't be fooled by it and would already have most of the information.

But by all means, I'd accept a more vague yet still functional phrasing.
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Crazy thought: How would Hazou making the implication that he was the one who did all this, instead of Mari, change things up?
 
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