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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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_The_Bomb said:
@faflec, is this one of Hiruzen's mannerisms?
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Not Hiruzen's...
eaglejarl said:
Jiraiya shook his head. "It should be fine. I'll make a point of telling the Oyabun that he's welcome to reach out to me directly if he needs any other information—much more efficient than passing messages through a genin team, after all. He'll understand that it's a warn-off from trying to suck high-level information out of you guys and that he should stick with more immediate topics." He thought for a moment, rubbing one hand across his chin. "Yeah, that should do it. Any further questions?"
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Unaligned Player said:
If we don't try to frame this well for Ami she is going to murder Mari. I know you don't like deal with the emotions of Team Uplift, but this is a matter of "If we don't deal with this one of our family will die. With all the knock on effects implied."
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First I think you are entirely wrong about the consequences of this but make your pitch. I'm willing to work on this but I don't see a god path at all.
 
RandomOTP said:
Ami is a social spec jonin whose model of Hazou is near-perfect. When/If we talk to Ami about the Orochimaru Fiasco, then she'll (correctly) know that Hazou had been (and is) willing to sacrifice his life for Kei's. They made a pact towards that end, after all. I wonder if Ami will see this as Hazou failing that promise, or if she'll assert that Mari prevented Hazou from fulfilling that promise?
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faflec said:
I also argue that Ami's model of Hazou is ... not so accurate, even if you ignore the hivemind's influence. Recall the pregnancy incident.
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_The_Bomb said:
EDIT: Damn, ninja'd by Faflec when I went quote hunting.
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Lmao you guys are on top of things tonight. I also agree that Ami doesn't have a great model of Hazou -for a seduction specialist, at least. She's doing better than Rock Lee

Oneiros said:
I think that we personally should make a play to be made clan head of the Kurosawa
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This made me laugh out loud. Just imagining the reactions: we got the Kurosawa elders, Asuma, Hana and Ren

It would be a great scene. I would love to see that if I thought Hazou would live through the reactions.
Unaligned Player said:
If we don't try to frame this well for Ami she is going to murder Mari. I know you don't like deal with the emotions of Team Uplift, but this is a matter of "If we don't deal with this one of our family will die. With all the knock on effects implied."
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She'd try. Mari can kick her ass with one hand tied behind her back. But uhhhh that would be pretty bad for other reasons. So I agree we should head it off. I think Mari's actions towards Kei were remarkably similar to Ami's actions towards the KEI regarding the FGP. Except:
  1. Mari did it to save Hazou and Ami did it to save herself
  2. Dozens to maybe a hundred are tortured brutally by the FGP and Mari only risked Kei and Snowflake
  3. No one got seriously hurt by Mari's actions and the FGP is hurting plenty of people
  4. The FGP is technically "voluntary" (except for the people manipulated into signing up) (except the Hokage could support these crippled ninja) and Mari did it without Kei's consent
  5. Mari has a greater obligation to Kei than Ami has to any single member of KEI (but not, I would argue, greater that the aggregate of responsibility of 60-100 people)
 
_The_Bomb said:
Right. Jiraiya would also be happy to welcome home Orochimaru.

What on earth is going on here? We need to talk to Shikamaru about this.
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Velorien said:
It was necessary to assume that if lupchanzen existed Shikaku himself who had the best hope of inventing countermeasures would be a priority target for infection which would most obviously manifest as a strong inclination to dismiss the idea of their existence which Shikaku indeed felt and was thus rationally compelled to suppress that instinct until he could fully investigate the matter and come to a firm conclusion which if the head of the Nara Clan was unable to reach meant that either they did not exist or he was powerless to stop them and in either case he could only set the matter aside and return to his normal life.
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Oneiros said:
First I think you are entirely wrong about the consequences of this but make your pitch.
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Mari is the cause of emotional distress in Keiko and risked her life.
No other information is needed for Ami to go "Right, she's dying." because she's not nearly as rational as she likes to pretend she is.
I honestly don't see a way to guarantee that not happening because I'm a social dump stat, but it needs to be attempted.
 
Velorien said:
But there was something different about the Hokage today. His expression was mild, his mouth relaxed, but the muscles around his eyes were tight with concentration. "Welcome home, Orochimaru," he said, and there was something about the warmth in that voice, and the tension, that was not quite right, not quite his. "Please report."
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What the fuck?
Velorien said:
Orochimaru blinked. "The initial journey was uneventful. My escorts were able to dispatch the attacking chakra beasts without my intervention, and finding Isan was trivial with the aid of scout summons. Negotiations with the Isan Clan Council were brief. After three days, I set out north with a force of 214 Isan ninja. As Cloud scouts had no way to predict an assault from the south, our initial victories were overwhelming. However, since my chūnin escorts and I were the only skywalker users, it was impossible to prevent escapees from warning forces further up the coast, and the Isanese's unfamiliarity with the terrain slowed pursuit.

"I estimate that we eliminated a quarter to a third of the enemy expeditionary force. The rest retreated north through the archipelago towards Haran Bay, an area outside the scope of the mission."

Then whatever unusually cooperative mood had seized him dissipated, and his focused expression was replaced with a more familiar faint scowl. "I will send you the usual report in due course. Now, I am weary. Is there anything else?"
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WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON????

I don't have a clue, does anyone have an idea? Genjutsu, is the ghost of the Sage possessing Asuma, lupchanzen for crying out loud? Orochimaru blinked
Velorien said:
"January 26,"
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This is right after Ami went home, right?
Pharos said:
Do you mean that it'd be hard to set up in the middle of a fight? We can set up the frame ahead of time.
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Yes I mean that it's too hard to deploy in the middle of a fight. No ninja would ever just walk into an unknown sealing array like that. So you'd need to lure them in and then the value over replacement of explosive mines is nil. There's no point to setting it up ahead of time.
Shrooms said:
Ami wouldn't attack her directly, she would attack her through social spec means and Mari would counter with the same and Leaf would explode
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Agreed, that was a little facetious. OTOH I think Mari can also handle herself in that arena as well, but for the good of everyone in Leaf we need to do our best to avoid that outcome.
 
[X] Action Plan: Talking
Word count: 299

Continue the previous plan + the following.
  • Go somewhere private.
  • Tone: understanding of Ami's anger. Focused on Kei's well-being.
    • Don't break Shadow Clone/Iron Nerve/etc. OPSEC.
    • Don't stray to other topics (e.g. Asuma's weirdness).
    • Spend favour tokens if we have them.
  • Explain the situation.
    • Mari put Kei in mortal danger to save us from Orochimaru.
    • Kei feels betrayed that Mari didn't "put her [Kei's] well-being over the good of the clan".
      • Kei concedes Mari acted logically, but doesn't care.
      • Snowflake feels that Mari should have acted like a mother.
    • Kei doesn't trust Mari or want any relationship with her.
  • If it comes up, be clear that we don't think vengeance will help.
    • We think Kei needs closure, not triumph. Mari has problems which prevent her from giving Kei closure which will be exacerbated by additional pain.
  • Our focus is Kei's long-term happiness. Her relationship with Mari causes her distress.
    • Do you agree?
    • Where does that pain come from?
      • Our thoughts: a lot is Mari's betrayal and the absence of a meaningful apology. Time and space seem like they might help there.
      • Some of it seems like it's coming from places we can't articulate. (Grief, sadness? Mourning Mari the mother?) Can you?
    • A broader problem is that we see Kei cyclically sitting on her feelings until she explodes. That seems incompatible with long-term happiness. We want to help break this cycle.
      • Processing the feelings?
      • Non-explosive venting?
      • Her self-loathing seems related.
    • How can we help?
  • Ideas we have:
    • Ask Ino (therapist clan, discreet) for advice.
    • Continue to love and support Kei as best we can.
    • Make sure that Kei gets the requested space from Mari.
    • What else?
Also speak to Shikamaru in a high-OPSEC environment. Explain our observations of Asuma - he's not himself and we're concerned. Does your assessment agree?
 
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Velorien said:
that Jiraiya had done something very similar, and Aunt Ren was a terrible person, Hazō couldn't find it in himself to be as upset as he probably should have been
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Hazou is a very well-known treason advocate, i am not surprised he approves of this.

i imagine this will bring the two sisters together more, which means that now Hana will be held under contempt by both her own clan and the AMI.
do we actually care about Hana's survival any more?
she has had so few appearances in the story that i imagine for most of the hive mind she is either "that woman who broke Mari when we needed her most"or " the one NPC Hazou cares about but we don't"
 
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Unaligned Player said:
Mari is the cause of emotional distress in Keiko and risked her life.
No other information is needed for Ami to go "Right, she's dying." because she's not nearly as rational as she likes to pretend she is.
I honestly don't see a way to guarantee that not happening because I'm a social dump stat, but it needs to be attempted.
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Ultimately the reason why this is not accurate is that Mari is not a singular entity. Ami is also not singular. There is a specific altar of Mari that made a snap decision because of who that altar is. She is a field commander who made a call on how to protect her team. This is what Ami needs to know. Since Hazō doesn't have this information anything he does to try to mediate the confrontation will fail miserably
 
Eisenhelm said:
Hazou is very well know treason advocate, i am not surprised he approves of this.

i imagine this will bring the two sisters together more, which means that now Hana will be held under contempt by both her own clan and the AMI.
do we actually care about Hana's survival any more?
she has had so few appearances in the story that i imagine for most of the hive mind she is either "that woman who broke Mari when we needed her most"or " the one NPC Hazou cares about but we don't"
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Wait, why is Hana being held under contempt by the AMI?
 
Oneiros said:
She is a field commander who made a call on how to protect her team. This is what Ami needs to know.
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And that call included "Risk Keiko's life." Like I said, once that knowledge reaches her ears "Right, she's dead." will be the only conclusion because as far as I can recall, caring for Keiko is the only consistent thing about her and she's not as rational as she likes to pretend especially when it comes to Keiko.
 
[X] ACTION PLAN: Full* Disclosure
  • Lead Ami to the nearest private, OPSEC-safe area
  • Excluding classified details on the Shadow Clone and Iron Nerve, tell Ami what happened.
    • Orochimaru appeared unexpectedly at our party
    • I diverted his attention towards myself, which backfired horribly when he took an unhealthy interest
Well, I guess I don't need this anymore.

@FaintlySorcerous, a few suggestions from me.
  1. Explicitly add sometime to the effect of "Asuma's inability to control Orochimaru" to the list of things not to discuss.
  2. Add something to the effect of "Even by Kei's admission, Mari acted completely logically and placed herself at substantial risk."
  3. Remove the OOC information from Mari's apology to Kei and Snowflake. Hazō wasn't there.
  4. Remove the section on tearing the family apart. Ami doesn't want to fix the Gōketsu family, she wants to support Kei. We want to support Kei. Don't make it seem like we're favoring a return to the status quo.

Actually, I think our plans are different enough I should go back to writing my own. There's a lot I wouldn't include that you have in the later parts.
 
Unaligned Player said:
And that call included "Risk Keiko's life." Like I said, once that knowledge reaches her ears "Right, she's dead." will be the only conclusion because as far as I can recall, caring for Keiko is the only consistent thing about her and she's not as rational as she likes to pretend especially when it comes to Keiko.
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Once again both Ami and Mari are plural. You are treating them as cohesive entities when that is not the case. Ami won't want to destroy everyone for one alters decisions.
 
We should ask Ami if we could get Ren posted as an ambassador so that Hazo can use Ren as a mentor or social spec trainer.
 
Velorien said:
"Welcome back, Ami." He smiled. Strictly speaking, these days he could get by without his cane, but today he was very grateful for its assistance as he braced himself the instant before a massive hug.

"Ahh, that's the stuff," Ami said several seconds later. "Hugs you don't have to time are the best, second only to hugs from Kei."
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It occurs to me that Ami's love language may be physical contact (or she's a naturally physically affectionate person), but her social training (and her timers) have reduced the act of hugging into an act of manipulation.

If we take Ami's comment to be true, then Hazou and Kei are the only people Ami can lower her guard around (at least, enough to indulge in the simple joy of a hug).

EDIT: Or Ami knows Hazou's love language is weighted towards that direction (I've commented on it before), and is expressing her joy at seeing him (she's mentioned she appreciates their genuine connection and Hazou's lack of worship/idolization ) in a way he understands. Or maybe it's nothing. Or maybe it's everything.
 
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Oneiros said:
Once again both Ami and Mari are plural. You are treating them as cohesive entities when that is not the case. Ami won't want to destroy everyone for one alters decisions.
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You're treating this like it'll be a decision driven by logic, by reason, instead of "Unga bunga family unit hurt murder offending party." Them being plural doesn't really matter in the face of that, especially because as far as I remember "I Love Keiko" is consistent across All Ami's.
 
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