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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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UlseDovThur said:
No, I got that, what I'm saying is what use would those analogues serve?

The bones, maybe, but I would think that whatever is within the musculature that is not "muscle" would by default be the "bone" that the "muscle" attaches to. But the "heart"? It already has a power source, MWaking, and I don't see how putting it on a "heart" would make it more powerful. And what use would it be being made of some regenerating material? It'll be made of Stone or metal, there's nothing to regenerate.

And again I don't think this is an aspect we need to test or micromanage in the first place as Snorri has the Mind for Constructs trait which clearly proc'd on The Maiden and was responsible for The Maidens advanced musculature.

If we want to improve this aspect of Gronti's I think the best way to do so is to improve the Mind for Constructs trait. And I think we would do so by simply building more Gronti and naturally becoming better at through practice like how we improved our Productivity trait by contributing to the Underway.
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Anatomically correct breasts, fully detailed hair and from the way Snorri was avoiding the point, nethers also serves no functional purpose and yet improved the product.

Theres a reason its not called the Master Rune of Animation.
It awakens life in the inanimate, and works with what it has.
And it has scaled in potency each level of detail we've added. So finding out whether internal detail matters is quite a thing!
 
veekie said:
nethers also serves no functional purpose and yet improved the product.
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I don't think its possible to separate all of the general improvements and the Valma stuff from any specific choice in the whole Gronti.
A whole lot of research got done since The Miner and all of it got applied here as well as the stuff that we think might not work but won't hurt to try.
 
Wonder if The Miner's performance would improve if we gave it a bit of a touch up? Or conversely, would enough surface damage degrade it's effectiveness? If so, which one's performance would degrade faster from relatively minor surface damage? The Miner, whose outward apperance is less detailed (so less detail to ruin) or The Maiden?
 
[X] Plan Hearth Souls
-[X] [Commander Name]: Name the position of Commander for The Hearth Guard, or more accurately for Rudil, because the boy has found himself taking on many of the duties the position entails more by accident than any real desire for it.
--[X] The First Flame
-[X] [Champion Name]: Name the position of Champion of The Hearth Guard
--[X] Fire Keeper
-[X] [Champion Purpose]: What will the Champion's purpose be.
--[X] Exemplar: The Champion is to be the greatest example of what it means to be a Hearthwarden. One who understands intrinsically what your group entails and goes above and beyond to fulfill its stated purpose.
 
RyubosJ said:
I love the thought of dawi that knew snorri's wife finding the maiden oddly familiar.
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I'd rather save our wife for a demon slayer gronti with a grudge rune. We need to get more stores of voidstone somewhere after all.

argenten said:
Thats what i thought but i didnt want to assune they'd have enough detailed records from surgeries snd the like without verfication since they afaik dont have anything thatd make obtaining such knowledge easy and non-invasive
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They have goats and other food animals which means that if you just wanted to test the principle you can use something other then a dwarf.
 
TimEd said:
Wonder if The Miner's performance would improve if we gave it a bit of a touch up? Or conversely, would enough surface damage degrade it's effectiveness? If so, which one's performance would degrade faster from relatively minor surface damage? The Miner, whose outward apperance is less detailed (so less detail to ruin) or The Maiden?
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I don't think it works that way.
The miner sprang to life when we struck the last stroke on the rune. I don't think anything after that would have an effect
 
veekie said:
Anatomically correct breasts, fully detailed hair and from the way Snorri was avoiding the point, nethers also serves no functional purpose and yet improved the product.

Theres a reason its not called the Master Rune of Animation.
It awakens life in the inanimate, and works with what it has.
And it has scaled in potency each level of detail we've added. So finding out whether internal detail matters is quite a thing!
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Except he didn't do that;
The key, you found, was to envision the body beneath the armour. You could sculpt it wholesale as one piece or create the body only as you had with the Maiden then layer actual armour overtop. The point remained that as long as the statue's proportions and outward musculature worked the Rune performed better.

Still, a part of you felt a great deal of embarrassment over your creation of the Maiden. Nothing egregious mind you, but the point was to be, at least outwardly, anatomically accurate. Thankfully you didn't need to get overly detailed about it beyond the musculature, and even then it still felt just a tad...scandalous.

He only needed to get the things like breasts or crotch accurate enough so that the musculature in those areas were on point and accurate. Beyond that it wasn't needed.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
I'm concerned the argument is a fundamental failure to understand cause and effect supported by selection bias.

High tier items do not shape civilisations because they are high tier. Items that have shaped civilisations are high tier because they tend to need the power.

However Gharal Marz was just one more T5 in the High Kings Arsenal until he gave it to Sigmar. There are dozens if not hundreds of T5 and T4s being produced in this time period which we should know because Snorri is one among dozens of Runelords. As far as I know, Snerras Shining Standard hasn't even gone on campaign let alone shaped a civilisation.
It stands to reason then that the majority of these items never get a chance to shape a civilisation, instead we only hear about the items that did successfully shape a civilisation and not the ones that failed.

Therefore the idea that simply building the Gronti will be enough to shape a civilisation is statistically unlikely to occur as well as making the assumption the unjustified premise, that just building it will be enough to make the correct change the way we want it.

My second concern is that its operating under the belief that we have any way of controlling the outcome.
I'm having a hard time finding stuff as I wasn't part of the quest back then and the planning took place over 10 pages or so, but I don't think the point of Troll slayer was ever to make Otrek king. Instead it was an attempt to make our first T4. And if we hadn't made it at the time that we just happened to be deciding on a king for the hold, and if we hadn't happened to present it to him at that point then it wouldn't have forced the council to crown him anyway.
These civ changing moments are the culmination of lots of factors and just simplifying it down to "Make good item and the more gooder the more the world changes" overlooks that T5s like Gharl Maraz are sitting in the ancestor gods arsenals waiting for their moment while mere T4s are crowning kings.

Additionally as you note, people still worship Grimnir the Warrior, therefore the transition to Grimnir the Slayer is probably a more complicated process that "They didn't make enough statues venerating him", we don't understand why people swapped in the first place so its kinda weird to say that this is the solution.
Even if I granted that this would help secure his image, theres no reason to believe that this would protect that from changing over time like in canon rather than just slowing the change.
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So for the first part, I apologize that I was not clear enough but I was not describing a scenario where they just sit there. I generally assume anything we make is going to get used frequently and often as a basic assumption, which is why I used the examples I did as every one of those has been used and will continue to be used. Of course a powerful item won't shape much of anything if it sits forgotten in a vault. And most of the items we've made that were very powerful have shaped the fate of nations. Stormwrath (shaping the nation of the Brana and Brana-Dwarf relations), Trollslayer, Barak Azamar, the Ancestors Aegis to name a few.

The point is fundamentally to try. We have examples of extremely powerful items shaping the fate of nations, and examples of our own doing so, therefore we make one when we want to try to shape something big and important. This is a process that empirically works. As for the second concern I don't find it holding any real bearing or power over the decision of whether or not to make it because we can't dictate the outcome perfectly. We can choose to make it or not, and after we make it we can choose whether to stick it in a vault or send it out to do stuff and when we do consider where best to send it. That's it.

The second concern is basically implying that we shouldn't make the gronti unless we're sure it'd do what we think it will, which in the context of this is basically a concern that's asking the impossible in order to remedy it. We can't be sure, and there's nothing we can do about that surety but make the gronti and try to shape what results by putting it where we think it will most effectively do its job and use its power.

E: Basically the factors which go into it are complicated, and some of them are outside our control, but in effect that leaves us only needing to worry about what we can control which is making it and what we try to do with it.
 
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BungieONI said:
So for the first part, I apologize that I was not clear enough but I was not describing a scenario where they just sit there. I generally assume anything we make is going to get used frequently and often as a basic assumption, which is why I used the examples I did as every one of those has been used and will continue to be used. Of course a powerful item won't shape much of anything if it sits forgotten in a vault. And most of the items we've made that were very powerful have shaped the fate of nations. Stormwrath (shaping the nation of the Brana and Brana-Dwarf relations), Trollslayer, Barak Azamar, the Ancestors Aegis to name a few.

The point is fundamentally to try. We have examples of extremely powerful items shaping the fate of nations, and examples of our own doing so, therefore we make one when we want to try to shape something big and important. This is a process that empirically works. As for the second concern I don't find it holding any real bearing or power over the decision of whether or not to make it because we can't dictate the outcome perfectly. We can choose to make it or not, and after we make it we can choose whether to stick it in a vault or send it out to do stuff and when we do consider where best to send it. That's it.

The second concern is basically implying that we shouldn't make the gronti unless we're sure it'd do what we think it will, which in the context of this is basically a concern that's asking the impossible in order to remedy it. We can't be sure, and there's nothing we can do about that surety but make the gronti and try to shape what results by putting it where we think it will most effectively do its job and use its power.
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How many turns was it until BA left our workshop? :V:V:V
The point I meant for you take from that wasn't that we might not use the item, Ghal Maraz was an artifact of Smednir and had been around for millenia, I think its a ridiculous claim to say that in all that time it wasn't used. Although if keeping it in constant use is the solution a Gronti is probably the wrong choice, there are millenia after the war of the beard that they were inactive for that the transition could happen in anyway.
It was that what the item is used for and when is probably more important than it being in constant use and its extemely difficult for us to control that. However I've already said ways that its easier for us to control the message.
...
A better way would be to make inroads with the cult of Grimnir and then send the message by how we shape their commissions, so that we're actually working with the people who have their ears to the ground. It seems like typical questor arrogance to just assume that we know best without even consulting the priests of this god. However even less than that, we could just try and line up the timing with some anniversary of import rather than just whenever. And I also can't get over the assumption that people are just going to change their view of their god because they saw this statue.

An important thing here, is that I am not advocating not trying, I am not even advocating no Grimnir Gronti.
I am saying that of all the possible arguments in favour of the Golem, this particular one is a bad idea.


Oh also, Dwarf-Brana relations where solidified when the KoS ripped his heart out to give to the Ancestors as proof of his word. Stormwrath came a couple centuries after that. Very very not a nation shaping artifact.
Silver Wyrm Banner (that has Ancestral Ageis combo) has also barely done anything, the best we can say is that it saved lives during the Debra campaign.
And for all that some people have said BA made a huge impression on the legend of Karak Dum expedition or whatever, all we've actually seen is the Silver Ancestor title, its kinda too soon to see if there'll be long lasting effects but the short term ones could have been any Adamant armour.
 
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[x] Plan The Hearth Watch
-[X] [Commander Name]: Name the position of Commander for The Hearth Guard, or more accurately for Rudil, because the boy has found himself taking on many of the duties the position entails more by accident than any real desire for it.
--[X] Hearth Lord
-[X] [Champion Name]: Name the position of Champion of The Hearth Guard
--[X] Fire Keeper
-[X] [Champion Purpose]: What will the Champion's purpose be.
--[X] Exemplar: The Champion is to be the greatest example of what it means to be a Hearthwarden. One who understands intrinsically what your group entails and goes above and beyond to fulfill its stated purpose.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Oh also, Dwarf-Brana relations where solidified when the KoS ripped his heart out to give to the Ancestors as proof of his word. Stormwrath came a couple centuries after that. Very very not a nation shaping artifact.
Silver Wyrm Banner (that has Ancestral Ageis combo) has also barely done anything, the best we can say is that it saved lives during the Debra campaign.
And for all that some people have said BA made a huge impression on the legend of Karak Dum expedition or whatever, all we've actually seen is the Silver Ancestor title, its kinda too soon to see if there'll be long lasting effects but the short term ones could have been any Adamant armour.
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I believe that the Storm that accompanies the Throng of Kraka Drakk, while within the normal capabilities of KotS, is greatly enhanced by Stormwrath, to the point that KotS does not need to be present. So it kind of does shape culture, if not civilization.
Our throng should never see the sun, unless circumstances like Karag Dum happen.
 
Dark as Silver said:
A better way would be to make inroads with the cult of Grimnir and then send the message by how we shape their commissions, so that we're actually working with the people who have their ears to the ground.
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That sounds both cool and sensible. Cool, in that it's engaging with the world, and about finding out what is happening in the world and what the world is like. Sensible, in that it's only sensible to know what's going on, because...
It seems like typical questor arrogance to just assume that we know best without even consulting the priests of this god. However even less than that, we could just try and line up the timing with some anniversary of import rather than just whenever. And I also can't get over the assumption that people are just going to change their view of their god because they saw this statue.
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... Because in this case, it's not just typical questor arrogance. It's also meta-knowledge (plus typical questor arrogance!) at work.

We "know" that the Slayer Cult will form in the future at some point.
We "know" that this is a bad institution and a bad thing, because we know better than Dwarves, about what Dwarves want or need.
Therefore, we "know" that we need to do something to stop this.
We "know" that it is up to us to prevent or shape the future, and that we must do it, and that we can do it.

...

At no point in that chain of reasoning, do we ever stop and ask ourselves "Wait, guys... what do we actually know about what the state of the Cult of the Ancestor God of Grimnir is like right now?"

We've already decided we know what the problem is: the Slayer tradition, far in the future.
That it is a problem. That we have to fix it. That we have to pre-emptively fix/avoid it. And that it is reasonable for Snorri to think the same things we are thinking, and be motivated by the same things, and work to fix the problem.

None of that's true. I think that if Snorri were to build a Grimnir Gronti, he would be doing it because "Gronti are really cool" and because he wants to honor the Ancestor God.

Note that, Snorri would not be doing it to "fix" or "prevent" some kind of "problem" with Dwarf culture. He would be motivated by Runesmith things, by piety for an Ancestor God, by nostalgia or wanting to honor a memory, and because he thinks a giant Gronti combatant could be useful for Kraka Drakk and/or the north.


Making a giant Grimnir golem to solve or head off a problem 4 thousand years in the future seems wrong to me. It seems like a wrong motivation to have. Too metagamey for me. (Me, I just think a giant Adamant Grimnir is cool, that's all, and want to do it.)

Though, anyway, yeah... To bring it back to the quote:
Dark as Silver said:
A better way would be to make inroads with the cult of Grimnir and then send the message by how we shape their commissions, so that we're actually working with the people who have their ears to the ground. It seems like typical questor arrogance to just assume that we know best without even consulting the priests of this god. However even less than that, we could just try and line up the timing with some anniversary of import rather than just whenever. And I also can't get over the assumption that people are just going to change their view of their god because they saw this statue.
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If a poster wants Snorri to be motivated by the same "There is a cultural thing to be fixed or avoided!" thing as the poster himself is, it would make more sense to make inroads with the Cult of Grimnir and find out what things are like, as a step one.

And then, of course, it would probably be revealed that the problems the player is seeking to avoid do not exist, because it's millennia too early for them to happen, and at this point you can't even see the genesis of those problems yet. :V So there's effectively no problem similar-to-the-problem-we-posters-know to solve.

... But at least you'll be able to do some awesome craftsmanship for the Cult of Grimnir, though. At least you'll be able to help out a Cult of the Ancestor God.

And, y'know, that'd be good? Getting good relationships with all the Cults of the Ancestor Gods. There's nothing wrong with that.
 
[X] Plan The Hearth Watch
-[X] [Commander Name]: Name the position of Commander for The Hearth Guard, or more accurately for Rudil, because the boy has found himself taking on many of the duties the position entails more by accident than any real desire for it.
--[X] Hearth Lord
-[X] [Champion Name]: Name the position of Champion of The Hearth Guard
--[X] Fire Keeper
-[X] [Champion Purpose]: What will the Champion's purpose be.
--[X] Exemplar: The Champion is to be the greatest example of what it means to be a Hearthwarden. One who understands intrinsically what your group entails and goes above and beyond to fulfill its stated purpose.
 
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