For all the talk about how the section I'm pushing is specifically flawed for one reason or another, I have yet to see anyone actually bother to fulfill its general purpose in any other way.

I do this all the time; it's a formula where you respond to somebody warning you away from something by going "Yeah, I'd never do that, I do x y and z instead, but y'know I think I can sort of see how people end up that way, they go through a b and c and all of a sudden they're doing f, y'know?"

Now, I see you even mentioned this in your discussion:

I think, when it comes to us falling down a hole of crazy due to dewitching, our personal caution about the possibility matters more than our reasoning and theories here. Our self-watchfullness is far more important to whether or not we avoid crazy courses of action than facts and figures are.

... The thing is, saying that we'll be careful and take things slow and etcetera is not in any way the same thing as considering why things go wrong.

And it's prediction that actually matters, here, because you only have to fall down the madhole and go insane the one time.

If you had some way to demonstrate we were considering the why behind this in your vote, at this stage, I'd be voting for you.

But you don't. And I'm not. Just the lack of that alone means that what I've got is a better option.



But I get that the "I fight for my friends" doesn't quite fit with that, and can lead to ProblemsTM as Kaizuki said

I never said anything of the sort in any way shape or form, afaik. That was Redshirt.
 
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For all the talk about how the section I'm pushing is specifically flawed for one reason or another, I have yet to see anyone actually bother to fulfill its general purpose in any other way.



Now, I see you even mentioned this in your discussion:



... The thing is, saying that we'll be careful and take things slow and etcetera is not in any way the same thing as considering why things go wrong.

And it's prediction that actually matters, here, because you only have to fall down the madhole and go insane the one time.

If you had some way to demonstrate we were considering the why behind this in your vote, at this stage, I'd be voting for you.

But you don't. And I'm not. Just the lack of that alone means that what I've got is a better option.





I never said anything of the sort in any way shape or form, afaik. That was Redshirt.

And I wanna be damn clear about this: if you wrote a line

[] Demonstrate in fullness to Yuki that you are considering why dewitching and badness go together so frequently

That would be perfect.
 
I never said anything of the sort in any way shape or form, afaik. That was Redshirt.
Nah, you said:
somebody you care about contracts and witches, you find out, and suddenly your priority isn't "protect my friends" it's "dewitch my friend/s"
In the post I quoted. That's the bit I was referring to.

And I wanna be damn clear about this: if you wrote a line

[] Demonstrate in fullness to Yuki that you are considering why dewitching and badness go together so frequently

That would be perfect.
As you wish. Edited in.
 
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The lack of connection to the topic of the Soujo conflict is ... disturbing.

As is removing the best reference Yuki could hear, the part where she is confirmed as "in the loop" when we confirm our local bias.

This is a conversation giving us exposure on multiple levels, and we could be winning on all of them. Instead of struggling to explain only one concept, we should properly flow across three. I'm certain Yuki can keep up.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by BlueTwinkleToes on Aug 3, 2019 at 1:25 AM, finished with 108 posts and 18 votes.

  • [X] Preface:
    -[X] You became a magical girl to help other magical girls. Your first priority in that is, and must be, keeping people alive, healthy, and happy but if you can, you also intend to work on helping witches become people again. Clear seeds, you hope, may provide a path to that.
    [X] Core points:
    -[X] You intend to be as sane, safe, and ethical as possible about this. You're not desperate or in a hurry and your power means you shouldn't have to be.
    -[X] Demonstrate in fullness to Yuki that you are considering why dewitching and badness go together so frequently and how to avoid it.
    -[X] This is something she has a right to know both as your ally, and as Anri's guard.
    -[X] Explain why you think you have a chance, in as much detail as she desires.
    -[X] Address her comments and concerns. Offer to make her as involved in discussions and with Anri as she wishes to be.
    [X]Potential specifics:
    -[X] Briefly summarize your experiments. Use the same explanation of your efforts you gave Nadia. Include the inner activity of grief seeds, how it changes when cleared, and the effects you've seen from filling them with magic.
    -[X] Even if it doesn't work out for actually restoring them, you believe that clear seeds at least aren't suffering anymore, and you intend to carry that standard of ethics towards any attempts you make.
    -[X] You've spoken to Nadia, and you're heard some of the horror stories and why dewitching has a bad reputation. It's part of why you intend to be cautious and to listen to any advice others have in doing so.
    -[X] One of the things you told Anri to get her to surrender was that you would work on finding a way to dewitch her friend.
    -[X] No, you will not suddenly recall her clear seed because you succeeded. The only reasons you'll ask are if you've found a major problem with them or if you believe you have a grief seed substitute that can replace them entirely, and even then that would be her choice.
    -[X] Pull from Vote In Abeyance as appropriate.
    [X] Continue to Vote In Abeyance
    [X] Upon arriving:
    -[X] Thank Fukushima again for their assistance.
    -[X] Ask how secure Yuki can make her territory from QB's eavesdropping.
    -[X] Hand over Rionna, "offscreen".
    -[X] Ask if they have information about:
    --[X] The Soujus.
    --[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.
    --[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.
    [X] With Yuki, privately:
    -[X] Discuss your dewitching plans, in the context of Airi's mental state.
    --[X] Keep in mind Nadia's reaction, and reassure Yuki that you're being cautious, ethical, and methodical.
    -[X] Request letting Airi channel her emotions into Yuuri's grief seed - this will require temporarily removing the anti-magic manacle.
    -[X] Ask for a more detailed overview of Airi's mental state, to inform your approach to her.
    [X] Open by establishing that you have all kinds of priorities, that dewitching is one of them, and that it comes well after generally being a good person.
    [X] Explain that it came to your attention that dewitching research generally goes together with being evil and crazy.
    -[X] You think you've got a good idea about why that is -- to do anything with a grief seed, you'd have to get out all the grief, even if only so that the soul wouldn't re-witch. But if you can only move grief between containers, you'd need the capacity of an entire clear seed to do that. Mix in a healthy dose of obsession and/or desperation, and...
    [X] In whatever order makes sense, while listening to + addressing any concerns etc:
    -[X] You're telling her all of this because she deserves to know about it. If you get anywhere with making a non-soul substitute for a clear seed, you might ask for a capacity-equivalent exchange after proper testing, but you were fully aware of the ethics involved when you gave it to her. It's theirs.
    -[X] Stress (more) that safety comes before all of this. You can afford to take things slowly. You can't afford to fuck everything up.
    -[X] Detail your experiments with clear seeds, as with Nadia. Include the recent experience with applying emotion-charged magic -- that result alone thoroughly legitimizes your experiments.
    -[X] You're somewhat hopeful you can get Anri to contribute to this -- she's obsessed with dewitching her friend, and if you could get her to do work for you instead of against you...
    [x] How much do you know about the origin of witches?
    -[X] We became a magical girl to help other magical girls. Our first priorities are our friends and keeping as many people as possible alive, healthy, and happy. Turning Witches back into people is the continuation of that, but being a generally good person is most significant.
    [X] Core points:
    -[X] You intend to be as sane, safe, and ethical as possible about this. You're not desperate or in a hurry and your power means you shouldn't have to be.
    -[X] This is something she has a right to know both as your ally, and as Anri's guard.
    -[X] Explain why you think you have a chance, in as much detail as she desires.
    -[X] Address her comments and concerns. Offer to make her as involved in discussions and with Anri as she wishes to be.
    [X]Potential specifics:
    -[X] Briefly summarize your experiments. Use the same explanation of your efforts you gave Nadia.
    --[X] Clear Seeds
    ---[X] We understand the difficulty of skirting natural Law, we just aren't sure which parts are Law yet.
    ---[X] Note the similarity between how Clear Seeds and Soul Gems interact with "normal" Grief Seeds.
    ---[X] Explain how seeds "go to sleep" when you cleanse them.
    ---[X] Even if it doesn't actually restore them, you believe that clear seeds at least aren't suffering anymore, and we intend to continue that standard of ethics.
    ---[X] We've been channeling positive emotions and magic into a Clear Seed in the hope of eventually getting it the rest of the way. Small visible changes.
    -[X] No, we will not suddenly recall her clear seed because we succeeded. Only if we've found a major problem with them or if we believe a grief seed substitute can replace them entirely, and even then that would be her choice.
    --[X] We were fully aware of the ethics involved when we gave it to her. It's theirs.
    -[X] Dewitching has a bad reputation. It's part of why you intend to be cautious and to listen to any advice others have in doing so.
    --[X] You think you've got a good idea about why that is. To do anything with a grief seed, you'd have to get out all the grief, even if only so that the soul wouldn't re-witch. But if you can only move grief between containers, you'd need the capacity of an entire clear seed to do that. Mix in a healthy dose of obsession and/or desperation, and...
    --[X] There are failure modes - not creating a Soul Gem, making a Witch with copies of our powers, total amnesia if the soul comes back, salvaging a Soul Gem that is effectively a different person, etc.
    --[X] Stress (more) that safety comes before all of this. You can afford to take things slowly. You can't afford to fuck everything up.
    -[X] Soujo-tachi are coming. Advise us on them, or their type. We want to control the fight, even if they want collateral damage.
    --[X] We see a possibility to save victims of Soujo and Soujo, that would require a scaled up effort. Ask her advice on building a workshop / hospital. Additional cooperating people have to be accommodated.
    -[X] One of the things you told Anri to get her to surrender was that you would work on finding a way to dewitch her friend.
    --[X] You're somewhat hopeful you can get Anri to contribute to this. She's obsessed with dewitching her friend, and if you could get her to do work for you instead of against you...
    [X] Pull from Vote In Abeyance as appropriate.
 
Okay, I'm having a hard time with this because my intention here is not an appeal to emotion but to temper the reveal with a statement of priority
The problem with a statement of priority is that lots of girls would probably have made the same statement. Who's going to outright admit that they're going to descend into the depths of madness?

Lead with what we're doing. It doesn't need tempering. It's simple, straightforward, mostly noninvasive, very slow burning, and having to call up positive emotions makes the process inherently healthy for the practitioner. We can then elaborate afterwards, when anything we say isn't just boilerplate reassurances.
 
Office Complex pt. 3
Mugin hops off your shoulder as you think, landing on the table with the clatter of claws on hardwood. You chuckle, reaching out carefully to stroke its head, which it seems to appreciate - but only for a few minutes, before scrambling off to explore the table.

You shake your head, trying to set aside the idea of buying Homura a baseball bat. Later.

"Right," you say slowly, and look up to meet Yuki's startlingly green eyes. "Sorry, had to get my thoughts in order. So... as a preface, my ethos is very simple. I'm here to help. I know I've said it before, but it's my guiding principle, heck, it's why I'm a magical girl. My priorities are to keep people alive, healthy, and happy, and that applies to... my friends, my allies-" you gesture at Yuki for emphasis "-and people in general."

"That's a good thing," Yuki says, brow wrinkling faintly as she stirs sugar into her tea. "And I'm hearing a but?"

"One of my big goals is turning Witches back into people," you say simply, spreading your hands. "It's something of a personal goal, but I've heard some horror stories from Miss Bennouna."

"I've heard horror stories too," Yuki says, tone careful but... thoughtful, as is the expression on her face. It's far too old a look to be worn by someone as young as she looks. "Why did you not tell me before?"

"First of all, because most of my friends don't know the truth about Witches yet. I'm figuring out how to break the news. And honestly? I didn't think of it, at the time," you admit, shrugging. "It's... I'm told that it's a topic of some historical problems, but for me, it's just another goal. I'm being careful, taking precautions and taking my time, but..."

You trail off, grimacing.

"You should have been told from the start so that you could go into the pact we had with open eyes, and I'm sorry for that," you say. "That said, I'm not expecting anything of you with regards to de-Witching - this is something I'm working on."

"But I can't help but be entangled in it anyway," Yuki murmurs. She shakes her head. "No, I don't regard this as a deal-breaker, though I wish I'd known about this earlier. It's... Hah. Given what I know of you, I should have guessed, really."

"Hm?" You give her a quizzical look, and in return, she gives you a sharp, cheerful smile.

"Even from our short association, I've noticed that you have a marked tendency to go for the most ambitious of goals," Yuki says, her grin widening. "Am I wrong?"

"Well, no," you say sheepishly, and take a sip of tea more as punctuation than anything. It's pretty good tea, admittedly. "So... you don't mind?"

"That's still up in the air," Yuki says, expression returning to cool, evaluating neutrality. "It behooves us to clear the air, I think."

"Yeah, of course," you agree readily. "I'll start?"

"No, actually, I'd like to, if you don't mind?" Yuki says, raising her eyebrows.

"Uh... Sure?" you say, blinking. You're not sure what Yuki's getting at, unless she's about to confess to her own attempts at de-Witching.

"You lack context, so let me give you some," Yuki says, leaning forward to steeple her hands in front of her. "We have personal knowledge of how badly it can go, because we were called in to clean up a fusion Witch of, I believe, five others. Osaka, just three years ago. One of our first jobs, and we barely made it out of there."

You wince. Yeah, that would be more than justifiable cause for concern.

"That said, that job bought us a small measure of fame, and that bit of reputation is in some ways the foundation of who we are today," Yuki says, unlacing her fingers and sitting back. She gives you a long look. "And that said... we brought down the girl who was responsible for the abomination, too." Yuki hums quietly. "She shattered her Soul Gem rather than be captured."

"That... really sucks," you say lamely. "I'm sorry you had to go through that."

"We've seen worse, since then," Yuki says, and sighs. "I don't tell you this to intimidate you or to dissuade you. Besides, I suspect that it'd do little to accomplish either. My point is simple: this is a dangerous field to explore. Maybe because those who try almost inevitably do so on the heels of some unfortunate revelation, but even so..."

"I understand that," you say. "And I understand your reservations. I can only reassure you that I have every intention of doing this safely and ethically - I'm in no way desperate. It's not... personal for me, as many attempts must be, and I have the luxury of taking my time. And given my powers, I believe I have a better chance than other attempts."

"I agree," Yuki says. "That's why I'm not running for the hills."

"There are plenty of hills here to run to," you say, trying to lighten the mood if only by a bit.

"Hah. Word of warning... I suspect that Kyuubey tries to meddle in this kind of thing, too," Yuki says with a frown. "I don't trust him."

"Hell no I don't trust it," you say. "It's why I asked to speak in privacy. I can't hide the fact that I'm trying, but I hope I can obscure some of the details."

"Prudent," Yuki approves.

"Mm. Also... As I said, I don't expect anything of you, but there's two things. First, I'd like to offer to involve you, if you want," you say. "I'm happy to share any details or address any concerns you might have."

"Involvement... Perhaps not, but I would, I think, like to be informed," Yuki says. "What was the second thing?"

"Clear Seeds are, I think, part of the process," you say. "And I'd like to request that Miss Anri help."

"Explain?" Yuki says.

"Well - first of all, just a reassurance. Even if I do succeed, I won't be recalling Clear Seeds until such a point where I figure out a viable alternative," you say, and sigh. "Ethics are a complicated, messy subject, but... If I succeed, there will be more than enough souls to save. I'll figure something out."

You sigh. When you say it out loud, that... sits ill with you, but you don't have much choice, do you?

"To the point, then: Soul Gems turn into Grief Seeds, that much is obvious. There is some amount of awareness of the Witches in there, or at least enough to wake up in response to my, uh, poking," you say. "Draining them of Grief leaves them in a state where they aren't literally marinating in their own despair, and I believe that this is the first step. They calm down, when I do - hibernate, maybe, but at least they aren't suffering more. I've been experimenting to figure out what the second step should be, among them, trying to feed them magic."

Yuki states at you for a long moment, then her eyes flick aside, and back.

"Would that it were so simple," she says slowly, and falls silent again. "Ah. Miss Anri's friend. You think that... asking her to help with her..." Yuki pauses. "Her friend's Witch's Grief Seed might more readily accept magic? Because of their relationship?"

"Yup," you say. You're always impressed with how quickly Yuki puts facts together, you have to admit - that intelligence is probably what let her and her group survive. "But that idea is dependent on your approval and judgment - you're the one securing her."

You pause thoughtfully, taking a sip of tea as you count the Soul Gems you can detect within the building.

"Say, where is Miss Anri being kept?" you ask curiously. "I can sense the rest of your group -another three of you, all a few floors down, right?- but not Anri?"

"You can sense them?" Yuki says. She looks faintly impressed and faintly worried, her eyebrows nearly approaching her hairline.

"Yeah?" you say.

"You are the first, I think, to be able to sense beyond my folded space," Yuki says. "Not that the list of people who I've brought in here is a large one."

"Ah," you say. "Well... my sense of Soul Gems and Grief is a lot more, ah, fundamental than most magic, I think. Low-level, to borrow a term from programming? Magic, Souls, all that... I think I'm tapping into something that's a lot closer to the metaphorical bedrock of magic itself, if that makes sense."

"It does," Yuki says, expression returning to that bright, sharp-edged grin. "Still, that makes things more interesting for me."

"Sorry?" you say, rubbing your nose sheepishly.

"Oh, no, not at all," Yuki says. She points at you with her teaspoon. "It's just a flaw that I have to be aware of and perhaps overcome. That said - you can't sense Miss Anri? She might appear rather further away than you might expect? I've put her in a bubble of folded space similar to the one we're in right now."

"Hmm," you say, frowning as you push your senses out further, and then wince, touching a hand to your forehead. "Ow."

"You found her?" Yuki asks. She leans forward, gaze focused and intent - and you know she's gauging your abilities, blatantly so, but you do can't really begrudge her that, can you? You'd do the same in her position.

"Yeah, three-ish floors up? We walked right past her earlier and I didn't even notice her among the background and the obfuscation from the space-warping," you say, shaking your head. "Wow, that's really kind of dizzying. She's far away and right there at the same time."

"Hah!" Yuki takes a long draught from her teacup, seemingly satisfied. "She is. That's interesting."

"Yeah, it is," you agree. If nothing, it gives you a bit more of an idea of your possible limitations. You can sense a lot, but just because you sense it doesn't mean you notice it.

Yuki smiles in a way that suggests she knows what you're thinking - largely because she's thinking along similar lines.

"Interactions of our powers aside, shall we return to the topic of Miss Anri?" she asks politely.

"Yeah," you agree. "So... again, it's dependent on your judgment. As you'd expect, you'd have to remove her anti-magic manacles temporarily for her to perform the channeling."

"She's been a model prisoner," Yuki says. Mugin hops up to her, giving her a curious look, and with a gesture, a small dish of what looks like sunflower seeds bubbles from the table. "She mostly spends her time reading the books and manga she requested. She eats reasonably, cleanses at a reasonable pace, and hasn't tried anything unusual."

Yuki pauses, and nods firmly. "I think we would be amenable to trying."

"Great," you say with a smile. "Thank you. What else can you tell me about her, since I'll be telling her?"

"Not much, I'm afraid," Yuki says. "She hasn't spoken much - and I can't say that her choice of reading material is particularly illustrative, either. Some shounen, some shoujo. She is, I suppose, about as depressed as you'd expect."

"Hmm," you say. "Right. That does make sense... I'll figure that bit out, then. And... I guess that's the last of the really private things I wanted to talk about? Oh, wait, uh-"

You spare a few minutes to hand over Rionna. And it's frankly a relief to release her into someone else's hands. You don't like what she did to you, and you don't like the visceral, gut-churning unpleasantness just thinking about her brings, either. Homura still has her body, and you've promised not to leave it indefinitely with her - but you're not leaving her as a Gem indefinitely, either.

"Thank you for informing me about your de-Witching attempts, Miss Vee," Yuki says, with that bit of unpleasantness done. "It would have been an unpleasant surprise to find out in another way, I imagine."

She hops to her feet, and you can feel the folded bubble of space untwisting around you as you collect the saucer of sunflower seeds and use it to lure Mugin onto your arm.

"What now, Miss Vee?" she asks. "Certainly, I can bring you to see Miss Anri right now, or perhaps you'd like to think about it for a bit? If so, I'd be happy to introduce you -reintroduce you, in some cases- to the rest of my team."

[] Straight to Anri
- [] How do you approach her?
[] Speak to Yuki's team
- [] Any particular points?
[X] When conversation allows, ask for information about:
--[X] The Soujus.
--[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.
--[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)


=====​

Surprise slightly early update? :V
 
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Getting to know the rest of the team better and trying to clear the air a bit in regards to the whole Sendai situation can't hurt if we'll be here more often in the future.

Not sure on how to bring things upw ith Anri. I guess the first step would be to see how she reacts to Sabrina's pesence and the carefully lead into the topic.
 
Well we nearly hit a mine there. We only ended up telling Yuki about the dewitching efforts because of circumstance, that would have been an unfortunate ommission. Is there anything else that one of the groups we're dealing with deserves to know but we've forgotten?
 
[x] Remember to tell Mugnin after the meeting is concluded to omit the information about Dewitching for Sayaka's own sake. She wants to be ready to learn the truth on her own terms.
 
Mugin hops up to her, giving her a curious look, and with a gesture, a small dish of what looks like sunflower seeds bubbles from the table.

That's one pampered bird. Nice of Yuki to play along.

There are questions that I'd like to ask the Fukushima team, but I'm mostly indifferent on the order we do things in?

Well, really, the key here is how we plan to approach Airi. If we can come up with a decent plan that has consensus, we should get that out of the way first.
 
Yuki likes (very much) to be in our loop, I'm reading. I think sharing our full predictions about the Soujo fight keys into that. I'm so glad she is tolerant. Her warnings about Witch manipulation failure are usefully informative, and chilling. It's good to have help like her.

At this point, we have generic info about Anri, and our metaknowledge. These are our handles to move our conversation towards a goal. Since Anri is mostly a stranger today, all we can do is have a goal in mind, and try to interview her. Only then do we become able to have a useful conversation. The small things are important, to help us figure out what limitations and which abilities her personality contains. Talk about details, have her ramble a bit, we want not so much the facts, but how her mind works.

Have Anri tell stories of her past. Figure out how her Wish is part of her. Don't try to advise her yet, but start to test responses that will let us know how to adapt her better to a life that isn't awful. Of course she was subject to extreme-thinking, we also need to find answers to that symptom.


And, let's make sure to accept the help around us.

Just for today, Sabrina has a co-host! As we have the interview, Mugin has a part to play. The crow doesn't understand speech, or human grammar. This is a very different fact from saying that the crow doesn't understand people at all. Crows are social, and talented at that. As a wild creature given a literal magic opportunity to go outside their usual lifestyle, Mugin brings in exactly the sort of instinct driven social skills Sabrina tends to flub.

Consider keeping a sliver of attention on how Mugin acts as we talk with Anri. It will be able to read things about her we ignore, and display them for us.

Our overall goal is to find the required intent to stabilize Anri, and prepare for a future regime to include actual treatment for her as well as delivering on our bargain. Hopefully we can gain people to help us with the psychological treatment.
 
[X] Tell Yuki about Soujo's and a need for a hospital/workshop/therapy center and the Mikos
[X] To Anri
- [X] Ask for supervision in case she tries anything funny when we come in range

Off-topic, but what might a mind-reader or a person who uses mind magic in general see if they try to mind-whammy us? Do we have protections that seem like the War Room Omakes or a forum? Is our brain damage just that bad?
Edit: Added some stuff.
 
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