So I wanted to have a quote in hand, since for some reason I've been feeling we've got Homu to agree to tell Madoka about the loops, after Walpurgisnacht.

But I've only found this:
"You still think Madoka should be told about the loops," Homura says, voice and expression flat.

"I do," you say. "I think it will help, and I think Madoka would respect your sacrifices enough to not make a Wish. And I think she deserves to know."

A frown creases Homura's forehead, and she hunches her shoulders, obviously thinking. "I... disagree," she says, picking her words slowly and carefully. "Maybe... if we destroy Walpurgisnacht... I will consider it."

"I won't force you," you say, beaming at her. It's more of a concession than you'd ever expected. "But... thank you, Homura."

"Beat Walpurgisnacht first," she grunts, standing.

"One miracle at a time, eh?"
It's not exactly a glowing promise. We might want to touch on this again before Walpnight arrives, at the very least. It might be too difficult to get Homu to open up before that point.
 
Another thought in the vein of "Kirika's wish gave her antimagic"

Homura wished to protect Madoka the way that Madoka protected her. That's to say, in a way that made her feel like she had meaning, and had someone there beside her.

Her wish magic allows her to bring someone with her into timestop so long as she's in contact with them, even as it didn't give her a weapon of her own.

In the same way that Kirika's wish was telling her that Oriko shouldn't always listen to her magic, Homura's wish is telling her to fight alongside others.
 
Another thought in the vein of "Kirika's wish gave her antimagic"

Homura wished to protect Madoka the way that Madoka protected her. That's to say, in a way that made her feel like she had meaning, and had someone there beside her.

Her wish magic allows her to bring someone with her into timestop so long as she's in contact with them, even as it didn't give her a weapon of her own.

In the same way that Kirika's wish was telling her that Oriko shouldn't always listen to her magic, Homura's wish is telling her to fight alongside others.

More then that - Homura's time travel also takes anyone she's touching with her. She "should" have been collaborating with people across timelines until she had a collective group that could take down Walpurgisnacht.
 
BTW, it's your vote now @Redshirt Army, consider deleting the 'playfully chide' line or replacing it with a less flipant, safer version after the Sayakatalk?

Maybe just thank her for making the effort?
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Oct 30, 2018 at 1:32 AM, finished with 147579 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Homura:
    -[X] Playfully chide her for treating Sayaka like a tool.
    -[X] Explain that Sayaka is a mostly ordinary teenage girl, with mostly ordinary teenage reactions - exactly the sort of thing that QB preys on.
    -[X] We just put Sayaka in a fairer situation, and pushed her to overcome her initial biases. The rest was always just Sayaka being Sayaka.
    [X] During the raid.
    -[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homura to hear you out.
    --[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
    --[X] Don't overwhelm her.
    -[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.
    [X] After the raid...
    -[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
    -[X] Meet with Oriko.
    --[X] Privacy Device.
    --[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
    --[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
    -[X] Use griefhax to examine the feather.
    [x] Kaizuki
    [X] Respond to Homura:
    -[X] Kaizuki's giant thing :V :V :V
    [X] During the raid.
    -[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homura to hear you out.
    --[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
    --[X] Don't overwhelm her.
    -[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.
    [X] After the raid...
    -[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
    -[X] Meet with Oriko.
    --[X] Privacy Device.
    --[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
    --[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
    -[X] Make an Enchanted-Griefhax psychometer to figure out where and who the Feather came from.
 
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Huh? Where'd you learn that?
There's the tie-in manga between PMMM and Rebellion, The Wraith Arc, in which KB gets ahold of a piece of Homura's shield, IIRC, and time travels back with her.

At least I think that's what happened, it's been a while.

There's also at least one other, less serious manga where Homura and Madoka travel back in time together. It's supposedly approved by Inu Curry that it's feasibly canon, if not actual canon.
 
This line feels iffy. I think we should lean more on explanation and less criticism, even if it's the 'playful' sort.

I've been trying to think of a way to bring it up in a constructive way without being a jerk, but I haven't really figured it out. I really don't think joking about it is really appropriate, tbh. And I don't think it will exactly take the sting our of it either.

Like, I know it's partly done to distance herself and keep herself from breaking down, but that that sort of mindset is also what keeps alienating people throughout the loops.

As for Sayaka, she's good person who wants to do the right thing. So unsurprisingly, she completely buys into whole magical girl concept. Being a heroine of hope, love, and justice and saving people. Add in Kyubey's manipulations and Mami being the image of an ideal magical girl which makes it even worse. And she also gets to save Violin Boy and make him her waifu which is the cherry on top.

So, when Homura comes in trying to murder the cute mascot character, isn't particularly adroit at social, and/or insisting that the whole system is a con and a lie, she's not going to listen.

She's also just genereally hot-blooded and stubborn.:V

That just about sums it up, right?
 
Okay fucking... Jesus fuck I know how to do this.

I'm gonna rewrite the giant thing into a third person expository. Then im gonna vote something saying "explain Sayaka to Homura. Your understanding of Sayaka is over there."

And then I am going to find a nice cardboard box and lurk in it goddammit
 
[X] Homura:
-[X] Playfully chide her for treating Sayaka like a tool.
-[X] Explain that Sayaka is a mostly ordinary teenage girl, with mostly ordinary teenage reactions - exactly the sort of thing that QB preys on.
-[X] We just put Sayaka in a fairer situation, and pushed her to overcome her initial biases. The rest was always just Sayaka being Sayaka.
This isn't an answer. It gives Homura no new information or useful tools. It also misses the point. Here's what Homura asked:
"I don't..." Homura's brows knit. "I... still don't understand Sayaka. I... should." She gives you a questioning gaze.
Homura didn't ask how we succeeded with Sayaka when she'd failed so much. She isn't even asking what she needs to do to succeed with Sayaka, or why she failed. She's asking for help understanding Sayaka, which is an entirely different and deeper thing.

[x] Answer Homura's implicit request: Do your best to help her understand Miki Sayaka.

-[x] Provide some basic background on how people work. They are complicated. This will be less of a hard explanation and more of your guesses and impressions.

This has a few purposes. First, we have a good introduction and hook. We want to warn Homura that what we have are guesses and tell her that we may not be able to help her as simply as she's asked. Remember: Everyone that Homura has connected with is, as far as she knows, a simple person. Homura introspects as "Save Madoka" and not much else. Homura's perception of Madoka is "Save everyone" and not much else. Homura's perception of Sabrina is "Save everyone", and while we've shown some hints of other characterization, Homura probably still characterizes us simply. Homura also grew up in an abusive orphanage and, for all her time loops, is tragically short on human interaction. She simply doesn't have the tools she needs to understand people.

-[x] Key points of the blueberry's character: Self-esteem problems, strong moral views, stubborn, makes snap judgements, young.
-[x] Explain particular behaviors in terms of these keys points. Support with examples when appropriate.
--[x] Unshakable loyalty: Decides that you look friendly therefore you are a friend and will always be a friend. Misbehavior is justified or ignored.
--[x] Judgemental: Decides that you look like you're doing something bad so you're bad and you'll always be bad. Good behavior is dismissed as temporary or circumstantial.
--[x] Low survival rate: Low self-worth fails to oppose strong moral view and stubbornness so she follows through on radical moral decisions stemming from an image of Magical Girls as Doing Good.
--[x] Her first impressions inform the majority of her opinion of a person and her first impressions aren't very deep or complex.
--[x] Hero of Justice: Low self-esteem makes her apply her stubbornness and moral compass to the task of being more like Mami and Madoka.

-[x] Explain Sayaka's relationships with other people.
--[x] Madoka: BFF. Sayaka treasures Madoka and holds her opinion in high regard.
--[x] Mami: Greatly Respected Hero of Justice. Usually forms Sayaka's image of magical girls as being heroes of justice; feeds her self-worth issues by being so much better at everything.
--[x] Kyubey: Makes a good first impression by pandering to magical girl anime memes then mooches off Mami's hero of justice image.

Homura needs to not information about Sayaka but information about how people work, which means we can't just list off character traits or behaviors and expect Homura to assemble them into a working model of Sayaka's psyche. We need to explain the core features of Sayaka's psychology as well as the dynamics that lead her to particular decisions and behaviors. In order to do this we show Homura not just the key points but also work through a number of examples that illustrate how key features of Sayaka's characterization work their way through human behavior to become patterns of behavior.

-[x] Note specific things that helped this time around, framing them in the context of the model you presented above.
--[x] MAJOR POINT: Kyubey very visibly and definitely hurt Mami. This, along with the lichbomb, was enough to break Sayaka's original judgement of him as "Mami's Best Friend and Magical Girl Mascot".
--[x] You presented an image that caused her to Judge you as Good. Once she does that it is very hard to change her mind. She does not have complex views:
--[x] You engage with her using strong moral arguments. Leaving Oriko and Kirika alive, for example, was because you do not kill people. Sayaka respects these kinds of Hero of Justice arguments.
--[x] You attempted to specifically help her with her self-esteem issues. You botched it, obviously, but not as badly as you could have.

Dig into specifics, partially to help Homura understand what happened inside Sayaka's head this time around in particular and partially to illustrate and contextualize the dynamics we laid out earlier.
 
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Okay fucking... Jesus fuck I know how to do this.

I'm gonna rewrite the giant thing into a third person expository. Then im gonna vote something saying "explain Sayaka to Homura. Your understanding of Sayaka is over there."

And then I am going to find a nice cardboard box and lurk in it goddammit

And I didn't do this last time because last time there was a fucking metric BOATLOAD of meaning packed into every word. Not so much here.

... I was on a boat, motherfucker, look at me... I really need some sleep...
 
And I didn't do this last time because last time there was a fucking metric BOATLOAD of meaning packed into every word. Not so much here.

... I was on a boat, motherfucker, look at me... I really need some sleep...

Redshirt Army's little condensed version seemed okay?

[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.



[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.
-[ ] She trusts her first impressions to a fault, and her first impressions of the magical world have always been tainted by Mami's trust in QB.



[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.
-[ ] She trusts her first impressions to a fault, and her first impressions of the magical world came from Mami, and were tainted by Mami's trust in QB.
--[ ] You exposed QB's true nature, so Sayaka wasn't pushed to think poorly of Homura's oppostion to QB.
---[ ] Now that Sayaka knows about Walpurgisnacht and Homura's plans to fight it, she sees Homura as a hero.



[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.
-[ ] She trusts her first impressions to a fault, and her first impressions of the magical world came from Mami, and were tainted by Mami's trust in QB.
--[ ] You exposed QB's true nature, so Sayaka wasn't pushed to think poorly of Homura's oppostion to QB.
---[ ] Now that Sayaka knows about Walpurgisnacht and Homura's plans to fight it, she sees Homura as a hero.
-[ ] Sayaka normally tries to - poorly - emulate Mami after Mami's death, to try and find a calling for her life.
--[ ] But with her lack of experience, and refusing help from anyone "evil"... of course it ends poorly.
 
My main issue with this vote, thinking about it, is that if we're to explain how Sayaka works to Homura, that would take a fucking huge wall of text.

Telling Homura that Sayaka has self steem and likes to self-sacrifice? She probably gathered that much already, and even if she wouldn't have, it doesn't actually explain anything; it's just observational information. The why of that is what matters, and the same goes for every other aspect of Sayaka's character.

Homura has seen Sayaka plenty enough, she needs to understand the why of what she's seen.

So in order to avoid a text wall, maybe we could axe the 'after the raid' part of the vote and go minimalistic on detail, let Brinapilot handle those.

[] Explain:
-[] Sayaka is normal. Normal teenagers:
--[] Have problems.
--[] Make mistakes.
--[] Are sheltered from the consequences of their actions.
-[] Go over the facets of Sayaka's character that cause Homura so much trouble:
--[] Low self-esteem; self-sacrifice; first impressions; shaky, rigid moral worldview; etc...
--[] How normal they are, small and inconsequential if Sayaka was allowed a normal life.
-[] Kyuubey:
--[] Cuts Magical Girls off their support network.
--[] Forces them into situations made to break them.
--[] How it turns common teen problems into fatal flaws.
-[] We're creating a support network for everybody.
--[] We've given Sayaka back the support she, everyone, deserves, and helped her overcome her biases. Everything else is just Sayaka being Sayaka.
 
The next update should take you through the shopping trip and back to school. Vote accordingly. Also, meeting Oriko, Yuki, or Kyouko will all be full-update actions.

Okay, so.

The vote does not need to include anything we do after the shopping trip. However, it should include everything about the shopping trip, and I feel like the huge Sayaka walls of text may not fit in a single update alongside time spent gathering weapons and cash and having some fun. Can we please trim them a bit, or at least leave them partially to autopilot to be glossed over during travel time?
 
Okay, so.

The vote does not need to include anything we do after the shopping trip. However, it should include everything about the shopping trip, and I feel like the huge Sayaka walls of text may not fit in a single update alongside time spent gathering weapons and cash and having some fun. Can we please trim them a bit, or at least leave them partially to autopilot to be glossed over during travel time?
We could go for some extra vote lenght too, though, since seyiku is important.
 
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