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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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@Redshirt Army This is 190 words without the brackets.

If we aimed for 200 words (I think the situation merits it), we could add maybe some more detail about the specifics of Sayaka's character* (though we should use the fact that Homu knows those both to save on words and for Brinapilot to more easily explain Sayaka to Homu) and then with somem wordcount reducing magic we could have a nice vote?




[X] Brinapilot the details. Explain:
-[X] Sayaka is normal. Normal teenagers:
--[X] Have problems.
--[X] Make mistakes.
--[X] Are sheltered from the consequences of their actions.
-[X] Go over the facets of Sayaka's character that cause Homura so much trouble:
--[X] *Low self-esteem; self-sacrifice; first impressions; shaky, rigid moral worldview; etc...
--[X] How normal they are, small and inconsequential if Sayaka was allowed a normal life.
-[X] Kyuubey:
--[X] Cuts Magical Girls off their support network.
--[X] Forces them into situations made to break them.
--[X] Turns common teen problems into fatal flaws.
-[X] We're creating a support network for everybody.
--[X] We've given Sayaka back the support she, everyone, deserves, and helped her overcome her biases. Everything else is just Sayaka being Sayaka.

[X] Thank Homura for the effort.

[X] Raid:
-[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homu to hear you out.
--[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears, about helping Magical Girls and dealing with secrets.
--[X] Don't overwhelm her.
-[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.

[X] After the raid...
-[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
-[X] Meet with Oriko.
--[X] Privacy Device.
--[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
--[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
-[X] Use griefhax to examine the feather.


Norad the Borad said:
Sayaka has been the downfall of a lot of timelines. Homura doesn't really know why. We do. Glossing over the why isn't fair to Homura. Lets not, please.
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I don't think anybody is voting to gloss over details. I see more of an argument of how much can be left to Brinapilot so we don't have to post walls of text.



We could ping Firn and talk the vote in more detail with him, if it results too difficult to be concise and detailed enough. He used to read pretty much the whole thread as it happened, but he's busier nowadays, so a direct conversation to make sure he understands what we intend to do might be in order.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Okay, so.

The vote does not need to include anything we do after the shopping trip. However, it should include everything about the shopping trip, and I feel like the huge Sayaka walls of text may not fit in a single update alongside time spent gathering weapons and cash and having some fun. Can we please trim them a bit, or at least leave them partially to autopilot to be glossed over during travel time?
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For a big character moment like this? No, big votes are fine.
 
"Hey girls, we're back."

Everyone startled to varying extents, turning to find Sabrina...

Everyone actually startled as they spotted the tall girl...

... Holding Homura in a bearhug.

The time traveller sighed.

"... Help."

Her heartful, desperate plea was obviously met by restrained snickers from everyone but Sayaka, who giggled openly at the poor, unfortunate Homura.

The poor, unfortunate Homura, whose glare could not quall the bleunette's mocking laugh.

"Did something happen?" Madoka managed to show some concern.

"We just had a nice, long talk," explained Sabrina. Homura tried to shrug, but the taller girl's grip automaticall tightened, disallowing any movement and causing Homura to wheeze for air, "it was a heart to heart thing, so I can't go into details, but needless to say, Homu's getting some hugs."

'Homu?' mouthed Sayaka, pulling out her phone and aiming...

"Miki Sayaka," bit out Homura, "if you dare take a picture right now, I will take back everything I just talked with Sabrina."

The bleunette lowered her phone, lips twisting into a thinking frown.

"Oh, a mystery box!" exlaimed Hitomi.

"Yeah, I don't know what you guys were talking about?"

"The obvious implication is that whatever it was, Homura agreed to do something for your benefit," nodded the greenette. "So what is worth more? Getting a visual record of this rare moment, or whatever they were talking about? It's a mystery box."

Sayaka nodded, content with the explanation. "Picture it is," she aimed her phone at the glaring Homura, who struggled against Sabrina's grip to no avail.

Purple eyes seeked out Mami's attention, but the blonde, for once in her life, suspiciously did not seem in a hurry to latch herself onto Sabrina, instead engaged in a discussion about swallows with said Grief controller.

"If you take that picture, you will regret it."

"Not as much as you'll regret it if I share this in public." An old fashioned shutter sound rang out, and Homura's tortured visage was captured in Sayaka's phone.

"... You won't dare."

Sayaka smirked. "Maaaaaaybe I could be convinced not to..."

Homura's head drew back minutely, as much as Sabrina's grip allowed. "Are you blackmailing me?"

"Maybe? Maybe I just want to know what's in the mystery box."

"Maybe it's a plane," commented Hitomi.

"A plane?"

"Do you doubt she can hold a plane in that shield?"

"Uh... I've seen her store and take out things bigger than the shield itself..."

"It's magic, so there doesn't have to be an upper limit, right? Maybe she's got a plane in there."

"Maybe more than one."

Homura's eye twitched as Sayaka and Hitomi completely forgot about her and her predicament, too busy discussing the intrincacies of magical storage space.

They could've, you know, asked. She would even answer. In different circumstances.

"I think the real question is whether they could carry the coconuts," opined Madoka, before catching movement from the corner of her eyes.

Homura's fingers beckoned her closer.

Pink eyes met purple ones. Homura mouthed for the pinkette to move closer, practically begging her in silence.

Madoka, of course, approached Homura without hesitation. She reached for Homura's madly beckoning fingers without thought, and then...

Homura's hand snapped out, dragging an 'eek' out of Madoka as with magical strenght Homura pulled the pinkette closer, then in three quick movements the black haired girl twisted, slid out of Sabrina's grip, and stepped into freedom, dragging one hand through her hair as she did.

Her lustrous hair waved in the non-existant wind but for a moment. Homura allowed herself a tired sigh, before finally detransforming back into her school uniform.

"... Eep?" squeaked Madoka, caught in Sabrina's vice grip.

Homura looked back with cold eyes. "You'll be safe there," she assured the pinkette, before deliberately putting a few good steps of distance between them and herself.

"African swallows are non-migratory," commented Homura seamlessly. Mami nodded thoughtfully.

"Uh... Sayaka?" called Madoka, "Could you come here for a second?"

"I'm not stupid, Madoka," snorted Sayaka, before turning back to Hitomi, "but someone would've noticed if a whole fleet of fighter jets suddenly disappeared from Russia."

"Debatable," murmured Homura to herself.

"Well, I guess we'll need to check the russian news," nodded the greenette, "but we should get going to school right now. Sabrina, if you would release Madoka?"

"Please?" added said captive.

Sabrina hummed thoughtfully, considering her options.

"Allow me," Mami smiled gracefully as she stepped forward.

With a little hop, she planted a kiss on Sabrina's cheek.

Sabrina squeaked and reddened, a goofy smile on her face.But more importantly for Madoka, her grip loosened, allowing the pinkette to push her way into freedom.

"But an african and an european swallow collaborating together could each hold an end of a string and with help from a murderous rabbit tie the coconut together..." Sabrina blinked and shook her head. Then she returned Mami's kiss. "Hug you at lunch, I mean, see you at lunch Mami, everyone."

Everyone exchanged goodbyes with Sabrina, Madoka and Homura both making sure to keep their distance from the white haired girl, and left for school.

"... But if the swallows were piloting the fighter jets..."

"But how would they drive them, without hands?!" shouted Mami before entering the school proper. "With their wings?!"

"Why not?!" shouted Sabrina back, waving as the blonde disappeared inside the building. "And now, Oriko..." the grief controller took a quick look around and jumped, Grief wings snapping into place. With but a thought, she climbed high into the sky, mulling over the many important things she needed to do that day, like talking with Kyouko about the church, contacting Yuki and visiting Anri, looking into finding mental health professionals for her current and future prisoners...

"And I need to remember to ask Sayaka to share me that picture," she nodded resolutely, and set the course for Mikuni Mansion.
 
Dragontrapper said:
...what.

Edit: To Elaborate - 1) where did that come from? 2) Why did it come from and 3) Can I have some of whatever you're having?
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I'll do you one better: How did it come from?
Onmur said:
"If you take that picture, you will regret it."

"Not as much as you'll regret it if I share this in public." An old fashioned shutter sound rang out, and Homura's tortured visage was captured in Sayaka's phone.
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I am very bored. :V
 
Redshirt Army said:
The vote does not need to include anything we do after the shopping trip. However, it should include everything about the shopping trip, and I feel like the huge Sayaka walls of text may not fit in a single update alongside time spent gathering weapons and cash and having some fun. Can we please trim them a bit, or at least leave them partially to autopilot to be glossed over during travel time?
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Yes, there was someone who requested we gloss over the Sayaka thing.

I'm not here to start a fight. I ask that the involved parties do not take offense.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Nov 1, 2018 at 8:16 AM, finished with 147666 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X] Explain Sayaka to Homura, using this post as a knowledge base.
    -[X] Her personal character: who she is, what her central characteristics are, etc.
    -[X] Her actions: why she has done what she has done in the past.
    -[X] Her present actions: why she's doing what she is doing now.
    -[X] Answer, as possible, any questions Homura may have, as they develop -- this is a talk, not a speech. If there's something the knowledge base isn't equipped for, break.
    -[X] Slip in compliments towards Sayaka wherever possible. These topics are going to be pretty negative, but... Sayaka's a good person and friend, who would absolutely have jumped at the chance to help Homura if she'd only ever really known the way you do.
    -[X] Explain that this is why you're so positive about telling Sayaka about the loops, but reiterate that you're never going to press Homura over it.
    [X] Brinapilot the details. Explain:
    -[X] Sayaka is normal. Normal teenagers:
    --[X] Have problems.
    --[X] Make mistakes.
    --[X] Are sheltered from the consequences of their actions.
    -[X] Go over the facets of Sayaka's character that cause Homura so much trouble:
    --[X] *Low self-esteem; self-sacrifice; first impressions; shaky, rigid moral worldview; etc...
    --[X] How normal they are, small and inconsequential if Sayaka was allowed a normal life.
    -[X] Kyuubey:
    --[X] Cuts Magical Girls off their support network.
    --[X] Forces them into situations made to break them.
    --[X] Turns common teen problems into fatal flaws.
    -[X] We're creating a support network for everybody.
    --[X] We've given Sayaka back the support she, everyone, deserves, and helped her overcome her biases. Everything else is just Sayaka being Sayaka.
    [X] Thank Homura for the effort.
    [X] Raid:
    -[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homu to hear you out.
    --[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
    --[X] Don't overwhelm her.
    -[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.
    [X] After the raid...
    -[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
    -[X] Meet with Oriko.
    --[X] Privacy Device.
    --[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
    --[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
    -[X] Use griefhax to examine the feather.
    [x] Answer Homura's implicit request: Do your best to help her understand Miki Sayaka.
    -[x] Provide some basic background on how people work. They are complicated. This will be less of a hard explanation and more of your guesses and impressions.
    -[x] Key points of the blueberry's character: Self-esteem problems, strong moral views, stubborn, makes snap judgements, young.
    -[x] Explain particular behaviors in terms of these keys points. Support with examples when appropriate.
    --[x] Unshakable loyalty: Decides that you look friendly therefore you are a friend and will always be a friend. Misbehavior is justified or ignored.
    --[x] Judgemental: Decides that you look like you're doing something bad so you're bad and you'll always be bad. Good behavior is dismissed as temporary or circumstantial.
    --[x] Low survival rate: Low self-worth fails to oppose strong moral view and stubbornness so she follows through on radical moral decisions stemming from an image of Magical Girls as Doing Good.
    --[x] Her first impressions inform the majority of her opinion of a person and her first impressions aren't very deep or complex.
    --[x] Hero of Justice: Low self-esteem makes her apply her stubbornness and moral compass to the task of being more like Mami and Madoka.
    -[x] Explain Sayaka's relationships with other people.
    --[x] Madoka: BFF. Sayaka treasures Madoka and holds her opinion in high regard.
    --[x] Mami: Greatly Respected Hero of Justice. Usually forms Sayaka's image of magical girls as being heroes of justice; feeds her self-worth issues by being so much better at everything.
    --[x] Kyubey: Makes a good first impression by pandering to magical girl anime memes then mooches off Mami's hero of justice image.
    -[x] Note specific things that helped this time around, framing them in the context of the model you presented above.
    --[x] MAJOR POINT: Kyubey very visibly and definitely hurt Mami. This, along with the lichbomb, was enough to break Sayaka's original judgement of him as "Mami's Best Friend and Magical Girl Mascot".
    --[x] You presented an image that caused her to Judge you as Good. Once she does that it is very hard to change her mind. She does not have complex views:
    --[x] You engage with her using strong moral arguments. Leaving Oriko and Kirika alive, for example, was because you do not kill people. Sayaka respects these kinds of Hero of Justice arguments.
    --[x] You attempted to specifically help her with her self-esteem issues. You botched it, obviously, but not as badly as you could have.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Playfully chide her for treating Sayaka like a tool.
    -[X] Explain that Sayaka is a mostly ordinary teenage girl, with mostly ordinary teenage reactions - exactly the sort of thing that QB preys on.
    -[X] We just put Sayaka in a fairer situation, and pushed her to overcome her initial biases. The rest was always just Sayaka being Sayaka.
    [X] During the raid.
    -[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homura to hear you out.
    --[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
    --[X] Don't overwhelm her.
    -[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.
    [X] After the raid...
    -[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
    -[X] Meet with Oriko.
    --[X] Privacy Device.
    --[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
    --[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
    -[X] Use griefhax to examine the feather.
    [X] Explain Sayaka to Homura, using this post as a knowledge base.
    -[X] Her personal character: who she is, what her central characteristics are, etc.
    -[X] Her actions: why she has done what she has done in the past.
    -[X] Her present actions: why she's doing what she is doing now.
    -[X] Answer, as possible, any questions Homura may have, as they develop -- this is a talk, not a speech. If there's something the knowledge base isn't equipped for, break.
    -[X] Slip in compliments towards Sayaka wherever possible. These topics are going to be pretty negative, but... Sayaka's a good person and friend, who would absolutely have jumped at the chance to help Homura if she'd only ever really known the way you do.
    -[X] Explain that this is why you're so positive about telling Sayaka about the loops, but reiterate that you're never going to press Homura over it.
    [X] During the raid.
    -[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homura to hear you out.
    --[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
    --[X] Don't overwhelm her.
    -[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.
    -[X] Ask Homura if she knows other Yakuza bases than the one in Mitakihara
    -[X] Enchant some grief if you have time.
    [X] After the raid...
    -[X] Firnvote
    -[X] Meet with Oriko first. Cut to voting if we reach this point.
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Firnagzen said:
For a big character moment like this? No, big votes are fine.
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*splutters*

I guess I don't need to make that argument then XD

Alright.

Miki Sayaka.

Understanding this girl isn't terribly easy by any standard. It's easy to write her off as a loudmouthed idiot who bumbles into disaster time and time again and drags all the friends she supposedly values so much right down into the pits along with her.

That's not really how it works.

Most of the models I use for predicting character behavior in PMAS run around a few defining traits, and it's not a bad method honestly. Mami is -- well, was! -- capital-L Lonely, with strong morals, lots of suffering, lots of abandonment trauma, etcetera. So, we're going to start in much the same way.

Sayaka Miki comes from a relatively poor family and befriended two rich or minimum upper middle class girls at a very young age. Madoka is well-off -- see the house, her suit-wearing mom, Nagisa's uncle telling her that her Mom has been promoted, her Mom's cackling in canon about maybe taking over the company... etcetera. Hitomi on the other hand is rich as all heck. Additionally, Sayaka crushes on Kyousuke, another childhood friend, who is (was, now is again) on an almost predestined path to life as a top-tier violinist: extremely talented, he hit a big tragedy when he (temporarily, now) lost use of his hand. These things have created a number of qualities in Sayaka, but we'll get to that in a moment.

Before we get to qualities of Sayaka which are derived from other influences on her, we have to talk about kind of who she intrinsically is, the stuff that there's no apparent contributing factor to. Firstly, Sayaka believes with pretty much all that she is in the existence of moral good and moral wrong. There are all kinds of different moral philosophies in the world, which I'll avoid getting into, but Sayaka isn't big on any of them. To her, there are things that are good, like saving lives, things that are bad, like murder, and things that don't have any moral implication whatsoever, like drinking water.

Secondly, Sayaka has both a quick temper and a tendency to leap to conclusions. She is highly judgemental. We see these characteristics all over the place -- the way she reacted to the metabomb, how she's kind of decided that Homura is some kind of "Captain Ahab."

Third, Sayaka is loyal, and very hard to sway from a decision once she's made it.

These characteristics, in combination with her past, basically shape how Sayaka interacts with the world around her, but the model becomes much easier to use if we add a couple of her traits that are derived from these things to it.

First of these, Sayaka has very low self-worth. She's spent her whole life around people who are richer than her (Hitomi, Madoka), or who she sees as more talented than her (Kyousuke, Hitomi), and she doesn't see herself as having done much for them, or as having much talent at anything.

Second, because of her tendency to leap to conclusions, her judgementalness, and her belief in moral right and wrong, Sayaka tends to think of people as being either morally good or morally bad. She sees someone doing something she views as morally wrong, and she immediately concludes that they probably do all sorts of other morally wrong stuff; she sees someone doing something she views as morally good, and she immediately concludes that they probably do all sorts of other morally good stuff. Of course, she's also an inexperienced middle school student, and so her temper, among other things, acts as a lesser trigger for this too -- we see Sayaka complaining about Homura's use of bombs in episode 10 and essentially citing that as a reason for why she's not going to believe that Homura is telling the truth about soul gems, Kyubey, and witches. Once Sayaka sees someone as morally good or morally bad, that colors absolutely everything else she thinks about them, because in the end she's categorizing shades of grey into white and black, and what that really ends up meaning is that someone can be a "good person" to Sayaka, while still doing bad things, and then those bad things become "forgivable flaws." Likewise, someone can be a bad person while still doing good things, and then those good things don't actually matter. It just depends on what her first impression was.


So, that's it for the base model. Now, what I do is I take that stuff, I feed the events of the story into it, and I see what comes out. But events are character-centric: what happens between people is driven by the people involved. What that means is that, in general, we can talk about things in terms of how Sayaka views other characters.

Mami is actually the big one. Sayaka's reaction to Mami is driven by four factors: her lack of self worth, her belief in moral good, her tendency to leap to conclusions, and her extreme loyalty to anyone she takes as a friend. Sayaka takes one look at Mami and concludes that Mami is a heroine straight out of a comic from the golden age: flawless, perfect, a fighter for justice and the Moral Good who risks her life against otherwise unstoppable enemies of humanity to save lives. Then Mami offers her delicious homemade cake, and that impression goes straight to hero worship. In Mami, Sayaka sees everything she has ever wanted: to be talented, driven, a force for the improvement of the world... a hero, really, someone who is not only extremely capable (and thus can do things for her friends) where Sayaka sees herself as unable to do anything of importance, but also engaged in using that capability for the Moral Good. And in seeing those things in Mami and subsequently spending time around her, Sayaka extends her loyalty to her.

Then there's Kyubey. The big issue is that Mami sees Kyubey as her friend, and Sayaka idolizes Mami. Heroes, to Sayaka, are morally good, so they aren't friends with morally bad people... and so Kyubey gets rolled into the "morally good" category. Things are exacerbated if Sayaka sees Kyubey in a "vulnerable" state, because she sees it as a victim, and to her, morally bad people are never victims, they only get what they deserve. Once Kyubey is in the "morally good" category, there has to be some great justification for why it shouldn't be in that category in order to change things, and there has to be enough evidence to convince Sayaka that it's not just slander, and if it's not coming from someone she's loyal to and sees as morally good why should she trust it anyway? This mechanism makes Sayaka a really good friend, because she's going to be extremely unwilling to believe bad things about you, but... trying to separate her from someone who is deceiving her is very hard if she doesn't trust you significantly more than she trusts them.

And then... Homura. Kyubey routinely takes steps to give Sayaka a poor first impression of Homura -- that thing with the damn fire extinguisher is the most obvious. These days, Sayaka usually (to our understanding) ends up deciding Homura is a bad person because Homura comes off to her as cold or creepy and then is seen to take actions in opposition to Kyubey and Mami, who are both morally good to Sayaka. But the historical record in general, of Homura's impressions on Sayaka, is just not good, and it's highly unclear how much of it is Kyubey's work and how much of it is coincidence. In general, if Homura doesn't end up being pigeonholed as a bad person by Sayaka, then at minimum Sayaka ends up not trusting or admiring Homura enough to place her far enough above Kyubey that Sayaka would take her word that Kyubey was Bad News.

Then eventually something happens that hits Sayaka in her self-worth. Kyousuke says something about his hand, Mami dies... in this instance, it was us pulling her out of a burning building and then having to rely on the Shizukis for housing... something bad happens and Sayaka thinks, if she just did something instead of sitting on the sidelines being useless and talentless and living what she sees as a life that doesn't involve any real pain... There are any number of specific ways it can actually go through her mind, but the overarching theme is that she needs to accept some "real pain" in her life so that she can be useful and fight for Moral Good instead of just sitting around and living an okay and unproductive life while other people are suffering. I almost wish she'd just join the damn peace corps but instead she contracts and becomes a magical girl... with low self-worth, a belief that she doesn't suffer compared to others... it's a one-way road to her death if there isn't anyone looking out for her, and because she sees Kyouko (for extremely obvious reasons -- "Break his leg!" "I steal shit!" "I'm a bitch!") as morally bad, and Homura also as morally bad, and because she doesn't want to burden Madoka or Hitomi or Kyousuke... there's never anybody looking out for her who she'll actually accept help from. Because Morally Bad people don't give help -- there's always some evil reason behind it.

So, what went differently here?

Basically, Mami trumps Kyubey for Sayaka. She thinks much more highly of Mami than she does of Kyubey, and she's not one for victim-blaming either... when Mami broke down in tears in front of Sayaka, crying about how Kyubey had lied to her and pretended to be her friend -- Sayaka did a one-eighty right then and there, and then everything ran in reverse. It probably helped a good bit that Homura had helped pull her and her parents out of a burning building, but in all honesty, Sayaka absolutely would've found a way to write that off as Homura only doing it because it was convenient if she'd really wanted to. No, the big thing was that Kyubey turned out to be opposed to Mami, who Sayaka sees as everything she wants to be, while Homura is Mami's friend. Immediately following from that is that Homura must be morally white, and Kyubey must be evil... once that was established in her mind, everything good that Homura did began to build up to her credit and Sayaka started looking for explanations for how Homura could both have whatever flaws she saw her as having and also be a morally good person... Things kind of stayed in limbo for a while, while Sayaka hadn't figured out a way to forgive Homura's perceived flaws -- and then Walpurgisnacht is explained, and suddenly Homura is Captain Ahab, all abrasive and sketchy and unfriendly but actually she's at heart a good person out to kill a giant monster. Now Homura is Sayaka's friend and a good person, and... well, Sayaka stands by and helps her friends, as much as she can.

Because Sayaka is a really great friend.

Sayaka is still, in theory, heavily at risk. She wished to be useful. If we were to push her away, or if she were to decide she wasn't being helpful, or -- the list goes on and on and on. She's far too vulnerable to the grief spiral, because she's already predisposed to thinking that she's not worth very much and she lacks the kind of anchor that might keep someone like that from succumbing (... That is, Homura. But... no). So when she's high on grief, she just kind of... accepts it. She's not normally suicidal... But, well... Grief: Not Even Once. Thankfully we have Homura around, which makes it really easy to find Sayaka in the event of that happening, but a big part of me really, really wants to give this girl a full lecture on the grief spiral she's so fucking predisposed to it. Homura has been through 100 loops and hasn't witched out in the middle of any of them. Mami can't go off and die somewhere because when she feels bad, she goes and finds Sabrina. Sayaka just decides that "I can't feel the pain!" and... yeah. We're... probably equipped to just shut her the hell down if that happens, via timestop... although her having acquired teleporation and clones kind of, uh, makes that a more interesting prospect these days... We should really probably have a good talk with her about the grief spiral. I, I really don't know that she's actually going to put that together on her own. I mean, I'm completely certain she can see all the individual pieces of it, but... I have some doubts that she's going to put them all together and go "Oh, shit, I really need to avoid getting high on grief because I will make really bad decisions that way." And that's probably not the kind of thing we should leave doubts about, now that she can teleport... but I'm kinda figuring we'll bundle it with the witchbomb.



I think it's also informative to consider how one might go about acquiring Sayaka's aid without a Sabrina around. In all honesty, the best way to do it would be to show up in front of her out of the blue and drop pretty much everything on her: lichbomb, witchbomb, Kyubey's existence, Mami, and most of all "Kyubey will try to get you to believe that I am your enemy. Don't let it evade you if you ask it questions about what I've told you." That's... really all that needs to be done: you just have to get to Sayaka before Mami and Kyubey do. As long as you're not trying to fight her established impressions, getting her to listen to your troubles is easy.



And in the same vein, this is why explaining the loops to Sayaka would work, here. Sayaka sees Homura as being on the side of good, as being a friend. She'll listen, just because of that. It would also be incredibly helpful: loopbombing Sayaka at present time can have all sorts of different results based on outcome, but chiefly, given Sabrina's presence for it, whether as narrator or just interjecting... What Homura has been doing would come off to Sayaka as "Big Damn Heroine"... and also "VICTIM." It would put Sayaka so far in Homura's corner you'd never be able to get her out of it, while also serving as a way to keep Sayaka from making her past mistakes -- it'd be pretty hard to run off alone after learning you've died the last eighty or however many loops doing exactly that and that every time you die you fuck over the entire team. Toss in something about how we're fixing all this shit this time, point at her wish and point out that it's certainly working out this time. Should make her much more cautious, draw the team much closer together... these would be very good things.



Okay, holy shit, I think that's everything... mostly. Some parts... I mean, as I said in an earlier post, people are incredibly complex and some of the stuff Sayaka does and feels comes from all kinds of sources and has all kinds of reasons behind it. But this should cover things for the most part.

So.

[X] Explain Sayaka to Homura, using this post as a knowledge base.
-[X] Her personal character: who she is, what her central characteristics are, etc.
-[X] Her actions: why she has done what she has done in the past.
-[X] Her present actions: why she's doing what she is doing now.
-[X] Answer, as possible, any questions Homura may have, as they develop -- this is a talk, not a speech. If there's something the knowledge base isn't equipped for, break.
-[X] Slip in compliments towards Sayaka wherever possible. These topics are going to be pretty negative, but... Sayaka's a good person and friend, who would absolutely have jumped at the chance to help Homura if she'd only ever really known the way you do.
-[X] Explain that this is why you're so positive about telling Sayaka about the loops, but reiterate that you're never going to press Homura over it.

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Sooooo....

Sayaka has low self esteem

Sayaka judges books by their covers

Sayaka sees things in black and white and wants to be a hero

Sayaka is a really freaking awesome friend

Kyubey sucks

That'll do.

[X] Kaizuki
 
That's a really good summary of Sayaka and her issues and behaviours.

...I'm still kind of concerned that even bringing up the suggestion of bringing Sayaka in on the loops might alienate Homura a bit, though. I really don't see Homura doing anything but shutting that suggestion down hard right now.

Maybe after a day or so to internalize this discussion, especially if Sayaka proves able to handle the witchbomb, but not right now.
 
Redshirt Army said:
That's a really good summary of Sayaka and her issues and behaviours.

...I'm still kind of concerned that even bringing up the suggestion of bringing Sayaka in on the loops might alienate Homura a bit, though. I really don't see Homura doing anything but shutting that suggestion down hard right now.

Maybe after a day or so to internalize this discussion, especially if Sayaka proves able to handle the witchbomb, but not right now.
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Honestly? We've already suggested it. I think... If we're going to explain why we think it's an okay idea, I think along with this is the right timing.
 
Homura is fervently against telling anyone about loops.

She said she'd consider telling Madoka after Walpurgisnacht. That's as far as we progressed on this front.
 
Muramasa said:
Shouldn't we wait until Sayaka is ready for the witchbomb? Without it, we kind of lose a significant amount of context.
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Oh god, nonono, I don't mean now. I--

As d f

My impression. Is that we told Homura we'd like to tell the others about the loops. And her response was "maybe after wpn."

This is intended to be a "here is why I think this will go alright if we do it, so that you have context for that."

It's not a "we should do this right now." Or it's not meant to be.
 
Redshirt Army said:
...I'm still kind of concerned that even bringing up the suggestion of bringing Sayaka in on the loops might alienate Homura a bit, though. I really don't see Homura doing anything but shutting that suggestion down hard right now.
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We do have a strong opening here - Homura has just asked us to help her understand Sayaka, in the process implicitly admitting that we're observably and significantly better at handling her psychology. Furthermore, everything in Kaizuki's explanation supports the argument: Things worked this time around because Sayaka has decided that Homura is a Good Person that's just been somewhat damaged. Explaining the Loops would paint Homura as the VICTIM in ten-meter-tall flaming letters, at which point Sayaka's judgement of Homura as a Good Person would become unassailable.

I'm not sure that bringing it up now is a good idea. Maybe leave the explanation open so that we can bring it up in a later conversation, or close enough that Homura can figure it out herself?
 
I don't want to talk about what it would cause -- that's too much pressuring her. I just wanna talk about why it wouldn't be last time.

The stuff about what it would cause was included in the essay for completion's sake.
 
Vebyast said:
Explaining the Loops would paint Homura as the VICTIM in ten-meter-tall flaming letters, at which point Sayaka's judgement of Homura as a Good Person would become unassailable.
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What's really funny is that I think it'd paint Homura as a HERO in ten-meter-tall flaming letters to Sayaka. Because all of that pain and suffering was so that she could save her one and only friend. Which is honestly even better for her working beside Homura, since it means that she will understand why Homura is so ruthless and cold at times, that it doesn't come from her 'innately' being that way, but from the horrible things that have happened to her in the course of trying to save someone. I think that would resonate exceptionally well with Sayaka -- the weary hero who has had all the light and mercy beaten out of her by her struggle to save people.
 
Godwinson said:
What's really funny is that I think it'd paint Homura as a HERO in ten-meter-tall flaming letters to Sayaka. Because all of that pain and suffering was so that she could save her one and only friend. Which is honestly even better for her working beside Homura, since it means that she will understand why Homura is so ruthless and cold at times, that it doesn't come from her 'innately' being that way, but from the horrible things that have happened to her in the course of trying to save someone. I think that would resonate exceptionally well with Sayaka -- the weary hero who has had all the light and mercy beaten out of her by her struggle to save people.
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Mmmm.

Homura... Homura stared at a wasteland, with her life bought by a friend. And instead of accepting it, she lit a great pyre, and unto that pyre she fed her very soul that her friend should live, whether alongside or instead of herself.

Every loop Akemi Homura could simply leave. She could even kill herself, and rest. But these things she does not even consider.

Every loop Akemi Homura turns her shield and steps willingly back into the fires of the pyre she lit, her personal hell. Every loop she fails and is condemned to suffer. Every loop the shield turns.

And when that pyre would flicker out -- when Homura could go no further -- she offered up more of herself to burn. Her innocence. Her health. Her friendships.

But never her friends.

...

In her pyre, in her kiln: Akemi Homura burns.
 
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