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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kaizuki said:
No. Dude. What even?

Don't... don't tease Homura about actually serious topics. Just don't. Please. She doesn't need that from us.
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Finally someone says something. What even. I want to make a point of this:
I kind of also feel we should try and make it clear that it's not okay for Homura to think of Sayaka in terms of "she's useful". Sayaka's not a commodity or a tool, she's a person. Admittedly, the fact that Homura's even asking for help in understanding Sayaka is already a very positive step, but it's not healthy for Homura herself to think of people like that. I understand why she does and what led to it, but I'm sure we can all agree it's not healthy.
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Without being too harsh Homura at this moment.

That's why it was more: Show support and playfully chide Homu. I trust Brinapilot to be properly nice and supportive, so it doesn't sting.

I would like to phrase it better, too, but I can't think of how right now.

DB_Explorer said:
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT CAT VOTED FOR BUT I TRUST IT
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For nothing. :V
 
The Phoenixian said:
Okay, I'm wary here. Please do not fall into the trap of cutting too much.

Firn has made mistakes before because what was thought to be obvious was not explained, and at other times we've distilled complex points down to meaningless shorthands for what should be entire discussions.
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I'm sorta of the opinion that if you aren't able to condense something down, then you don't really understand it, and that if something can't be condensed down past ~200 words, then it's describing too many actions to vote for since it can't be executed in a single update anyway.

So!

Kai's thing.

[] People are complicated. Millions of tiny features contribute to their actions, and nobody can account for all of them. But.
[] Sayaka is... Loyal, hardworking when she puts her mind to it, strong moral compass... And highly judgemental, with low self-esteem and lower self-worth. For the most part, these traits define who she is, what she does, and how she sees the world.
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[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.

-[] Stemming from those, and from her youth and lack of experience, she sees the world in black and white. Either someone is a good person with forgivable flaws, or a bad person who might do something decent on occasion but isn't to be trusted... and she makes conclusions about who falls into which category really, really quickly.
--[] It makes her a great friend, someone who will never believe bad things about you, someone who takes your enemies as her own... Just as long as you're not in conflict with another of her friends who she admires more greatly or is closer to.
---[] She values Madoka the most. Then Mami, who she takes as a role model due to her low self-worth and her morals, seeing Mami as a Hero of Justice where she sees herself as just a talentless poor girl. Hitomi falls in there somewhere, but you're much less clear on that. And then the trouble has always been that Sayaka decides Kyubey is good people and doesn't trust or admire Homura enough to place her over Kyubey.
----[] How that actually happens is complicated, and you don't have much information to work with, but it's some blend of Mami trusting Kyubey and Kyubey making good first impressions. You're almost certain it's mostly that Mami trusts Kyubey -- Mami is who Sayaka wants to be, from Sayaka's point of view, so she can't have bad people as her friends.
-----[] Once Sayaka sees Kyubey as a "good person who might have forgivable flaws," and doesn't view Homura more highly than Kyubey... Then it's "Why would Kyubey do that," and what she really means when she says that is "I am not willing to believe you telling me that Kyubey is actually evil." And more recently, when Homura makes a poor first impression on Sayaka, usually coming off as cold, then Sayaka categorizes her as a bad person for it and promptly will believe things like "Homura is the reason Mami is dead," because that's what bad people do, right?
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[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.
-[ ] She trusts her first impressions to a fault, and her first impressions of the magical world have always been tainted by Mami's trust in QB.

------[] Here, that's been turned on its head from the moment Mami broke down crying about Kyubey being an evil bastard in front of Sayaka. Sayaka admires Mami a helluva lot more than Kyubey -- Mami is the nice cake-baking senpai who risks her life fighting monsters, in Sayaka's eyes, while Kyubey is just kind of there. And so the moment Mami turns on Kyubey, Sayaka believes, and then Kyubey is evil. Meanwhile, Homura is Mami's friend, and Mami can't have bad people as her friends, so Homura is a good person who might have forgivable flaws. Things kind of stay in limbo for a while, because Sayaka hasn't figured out a way to forgive what she sees as Homura's flaws -- and then Walpurgisnacht is explained, and suddenly Homura is Captain Ahab, all abrasive and sketchy and unfriendly but actually she's at heart a good person out to kill a giant monster. Now Homura is Sayaka's friend and a good person, and... well, Sayaka stands by and helps her friends.
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[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.
-[ ] She trusts her first impressions to a fault, and her first impressions of the magical world came from Mami, and were tainted by Mami's trust in QB.
--[ ] You exposed QB's true nature, so Sayaka wasn't pushed to think poorly of Homura's oppostion to QB.
---[ ] Now that Sayaka knows about Walpurgisnacht and Homura's plans to fight it, she sees Homura as a hero.

---[] As for her tendency to get herself killed through bullheaded idiocy... It's a product of her lack of self worth, her contact with Mami, her rich and/or to her eyes more talented friends, and her morals, and in many ways these things are exacerbated here. Sayaka feels on some level that she's lived her life in the shadow of others, and even that she pulls them down, that she doesn't have anything to contribute to society. Homura may have heard her sometimes say that she doesn't really know what she wants to do with her life... in being a Magical Girl, Sayaka finds a calling. Problem is it's not in being a Magical Girl, but in being the kind of Magical Girl that Mami is. Selflessly protecting others from witches is, she decides, what she can do where Kyousuke has violin, where Hitomi is rich and talented. Add in a good dose of grief and she's totally willing to throw away her own life... and then she also rejects help from anybody she thinks of as a bad person, because bad people aren't to be trusted and therefore accepting their help isn't to be done.
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[ ] Sayaka isn't a bad person. But she's judgemental, and has self-worth issues.
-[ ] She trusts her first impressions to a fault, and her first impressions of the magical world came from Mami, and were tainted by Mami's trust in QB.
--[ ] You exposed QB's true nature, so Sayaka wasn't pushed to think poorly of Homura's oppostion to QB.
---[ ] Now that Sayaka knows about Walpurgisnacht and Homura's plans to fight it, she sees Homura as a hero.
-[ ] Sayaka normally tries to - poorly - emulate Mami after Mami's death, to try and find a calling for her life.
--[ ] But with her lack of experience, and refusing help from anyone "evil"... of course it ends poorly.

[] ... Put together, all of this is, by the by, why you believe Sayaka in particular, here, would react positively to Homura's past. Telling her about it doesn't work when she's thinking of Kyubey as a good person, or Homura as a bad person. But things are reversed. She wants to believe good things about Homura because Homura is a good person. She'll readily believe bad things about Kyubey because it's a bad "person."
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I'm going to admit I'm entirely confused about what @Kaizuki means in this section. Are we trying to get Homura to talk about her life in the orphanage, or about the loops? What's the purpose of doing either of those things?
 
DB_Explorer said:
[X] Kaizuki

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT CAT VOTED FOR BUT I TRUST IT

got to go to class
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Dammit, Db, you --

The Phoenixian said:
-[X] Kaizuki's giant thing :V :V :V
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The Phoenixian said:
Too late. :V *Edits post*

But seriously, once you condense that, it looks like a very good analysis.
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Onmur said:
I would like to phrase it better, too, but I can't think of how right now.
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I don't know that I'd say it at all. Looking at people in a quasi-not-people-but-also-people way is probably the first defense mechanism I'd develop in her place, and I don't know that we actually want to poke at that until after everyone else understands her story and will support her. She already feels she's made Madoka suffer... It's bad enough.
 
On phone now.

Idea, maybe it'll be much better to move the 'chide' part to after the Sayaka explanation. After having talked seriously about Sayaka, it might be easier to ask Homu in all seriousness to not think of Sayaka... as a tool, without it coming across as too reproaching.

Something like:

(After Sayaka explanation, instead of the 'playful chide' line)
[] Ask Homura to give Sayaka a chance, to show she's good, and not an obstacle or a thing to be thought in terms of 'usefulness'.

Hmmm... Still not content with the wording, but I find it difficult to think and type on phone. Hopefully the idea comes across well enough, later all.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm sorta of the opinion that if you aren't able to condense something down, then you don't really understand it,
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I don't understand the mechanics of English but apparently I can write very eloquently.

I strongly suspect the issue isn't where you're suggesting it is: I think, rather, that I understand what needs to be said, but not how to write a description of it. That's why everything I write comes out as "these are the words I would say" instead of "here's a description of the words I would say."
 
So, uh, something that Homura almost certainly doesn't know, that undermined her every effort to warn the others that Kyuubey is using them?

"Why would Kyuubey do that?"

Homura doesn't know what Kyuubey is getting out of this, because she doesn't have our third-person omniscient metaknowledge.
 
Godwinson said:
So, uh, something that Homura almost certainly doesn't know, that undermined her every effort to warn the others that Kyuubey is using them?

"Why would Kyuubey do that?"

Homura doesn't know what Kyuubey is getting out of this, because she doesn't have our third-person omniscient metaknowledge.
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...

Yeah checking whether she's aware of that is going to have to precede any vote we make.
 
...Jesus fuck you're right Homura never got the Entropy speech, did she?

I mean, she might have, since she knows its true name, but we don't know that.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, maybe Homura didn't get the entropy speech, and if she didn't we should fill her in, but is that actually relevant to her question about Sayaka?

It's not like Sabrina told Sayaka about entropy either.
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It's relevant to everything, what the heck?

"Why would Kyubey do that?" -- Sayaka Miki, timeline three.

"..." -- Akemi Homura, timeline three.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, maybe Homura didn't get the entropy speech, and if she didn't we should fill her in, but is that actually relevant to her question about Sayaka?

It's not like Sabrina told Sayaka about entropy either.
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It is, because part of the underlying issue Homura has was her inability to get Sayaka to ever believe her or take her side. And one of the biggest issues there is that she couldn't ever give Sayaka a reason why Kyuubey would do something so horrible.

It's part of why Homura gave up on trying to connect to people, because she couldn't ever warn them and be believed.
 
Kaizuki said:
It's relevant to everything, what the heck?

"Why would Kyubey do that?" -- Sayaka Miki, timeline three.

"..." -- Akemi Homura, timeline three.
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Godwinson said:
It is, because part of the underlying issue Homura has was her inability to get Sayaka to ever believe her or take her side. And one of the biggest issues there is that she couldn't ever give Sayaka a reason why Kyuubey would do something so horrible.
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It's kind of a fundamental question: did Sayaka disbelieve Homura because she couldn't tell Sayaka why Kyubey did it, or would Sayaka have disbelieved Homura even if Homura had been able to tell her that Kyubey does what it does to tamper with entropy? I think probably the latter is the case, but...
 
Kaizuki said:
It's kind of a fundamental question: did Sayaka disbelieve Homura because she couldn't tell Sayaka why Kyubey did it, or would Sayaka have disbelieved Homura even if Homura had been able to tell her that Kyubey does what it does to tamper with entropy? I think probably the latter is the case, but...
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"Ask Kyuubey if it's the truth."
 
Honestly, considering her behavior in Rebellion and the last few episodes, I think she probably DOES know, but... it's literally harmless and instantaneous to just fucking verify it. The worst case scenario is Homura doesn't know and we tell her. And what, she's gonna hate Kyubey more, or something? Yea right and who cares if she does.
 
Had never thought Homura might now know the entropy speech. There's worth in verifying.

I'm not certain it pertains to Sayaka, though. If Homura had tried to explain Sayaka that KB is evil because of... *whole spiel about heat death and humans being used as batteries but in a meguca way, not a matrix way*... I don't see Sayaka thinking better of Homura for it, but rather, think 'wtf is this nonsense witchtalk'.

In order for Sayaka to even listen to the entropy speech (an whole piece of information so far removed from her normal experiences she'd need to make a conscious effort to even care), that speech must come from someone she trusts already in some fashion.

KB gives himself the advantadge that everyone will listen to it, because it keeps up that pretense of being always truthful. Talking is what it does.

Redshirt Army said:
It's not like Sabrina told Sayaka about entropy either.
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Basically.

Kaizuki said:
It's kind of a fundamental question: did Sayaka disbelieve Homura because she couldn't tell Sayaka why Kyubey did it, or would Sayaka have disbelieved Homura even if Homura had been able to tell her that Kyubey does what it does to tamper with entropy? I think probably the latter is the case, but...
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I think your earlier analysis is right, it's an emotional matter for Sayaka, who she decides she should trust and who not to.
 
The trouble, obviously, is that Homura can't tell everyone the full story, normally. Mami can't handle the witchbomb without extensive support. It's worth noting that Homura's attempt to warn everyone comes before Tetris.

It's entirely possible Homura knows about the entropy crap and has never since tried to warn everyone simply because of how utterly godawful that loop was.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm going to admit I'm entirely confused about what @Kaizuki means in this section. Are we trying to get Homura to talk about her life in the orphanage, or about the loops? What's the purpose of doing either of those things?
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Getting Homura to tell someone about the loops is, in all honesty, a quest goal. IMO, much like explaining to Mami why we feel she's done so much for us was a good idea, explaining to Homura why it's safe for her to talk about the loops with the group is also a good idea. We have a history of saying things while giving little substantial justification... It doesn't work. This is just a convenient opportunity to explain why Sayaka wouldn't disbelieve her at the same time as we explain why Sayaka isn't being... Her usual unknowingly suicidal self.
 
Kaizuki said:
Getting Homura to tell someone about the loops is, in all honesty, a quest goal. IMO, much like explaining to Mami why we feel she's done so much for us was a good idea, explaining to Homura why it's safe for her to talk about the loops with the group is also a good idea. We have a history of saying things while giving little substantial justification... It doesn't work. This is just a convenient opportunity to explain why Sayaka wouldn't disbelieve her at the same time as we explain why Sayaka isn't being... Her usual unknowingly suicidal self.
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Perhaps more importantly, even, virtually all of Mitakihara Group's historical issue stem from a lack of sufficient understanding of each other in combination with a dearth of self-value.
 
Now picturing Madoka wishing that somewhere in the verse there was a star that ALWAYS gave out energy.

... and then Madoka gained Lazer eyes : P (or becomes a Madokami Lantern : P )
 
Dragontrapper said:
"For hearts long lost and full of fright,

For those alone in Blackest Night.

Accept our ring and join our fight,

Love conquers all with violet light!"

(There's an actual Pink Lantern Corp. because of COURSE there's a Pink Lantern Corp)
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Homura: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Sabrina: Plus side, she's not a magical girl

Homura: nods
 
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