I think part of Homura's failure to change Sayaka's fate is because Homura, too, is a teenager, with all the headstrong stupid that comes with the age.
[Q] Make a chart showing all the similarities between Homura and Sayaka, Kirika, and Oriko. :V

Actually, digressing for a moment, but have we ever given it any thought how to help Homura when we actually manage to get Madoka through Walpurgisnacht unscathed and un-contracted? I'm asking because Homura's sole drive and purpose is protecting Madoka and Madoka's survival. Take that away from her, even if it's by actually completing and achievingher goal, will leave her with nothing. That's not going to do her already fragile state of mind any good.
It's one of those great challenges this quest.

I'm not certain, but I think we broached the subject of postWalp with Homura at some point, besides like, right now kind of.

Oh, actually, IIRC didn't Homu agree to tell Madoka about the loops after Walp bites it? That should... help. And hurt. But in a helpful way.

BTW, protecting Madoka is not something that necessarily must be considered done after April is over. Homu's yet to protect Madoka for the rest of her life. ;)
 
We should ask what sort of munitions tend to have the best effect on Walpurgisnacht.
As far as we can tell, a building filled with C4 did little more than push Walpy around. We've figured that Grief rending is probably going to be our best chance at OHKO'ing Walpy, with Mami and other's to back us up if something goes wrong, especially since Walpy may be able to trigger temporary invulnerability. Munitions are really to just refill Homura's toolkit, since she doesn't really have any other form of offense.

Now if Feathers shows up right after, or buffs Walpy, we will really need the backup.
 
especially since Walpy may be able to trigger temporary invulnerability.
I think it's likely 'temporary' in as much Walp doesn't feel like having it on at all times.

Like, Walp might be literally invulnerable all the time if she wants, so unless you got more Potential invested into offense than she into defense, you got to play her game. Her game of drama, in which she allows herself to get hurt and killed, if it pleases her.
 
Like, Walp might be literally invulnerable all the time if she wants, so unless you got more Potential invested into offense than she into defense, you got to play her game. Her game of drama, in which she allows herself to get hurt and killed, if it pleases her.
Which is another reason to have so much support. I'm not entirely sure how potential adds up between magical girl teams but more is better as a general rule.
 
Which is another reason to have so much support. I'm not entirely sure how potential adds up between magical girl teams but more is better as a general rule.
... Are you suggesting we use THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP to join ALL OUR POTENTIALS TOGETHER IN ONE BIG TEAM ATTACK?!

WHICH WOULD OVERWHELM WALPURGISNACHT'S POTENTIAL

AND HAVE THE BONUS OF BEING APPROPRIATELY DRAMATIC

WHICH WOULD LOWER WALPURGISNACHT'S RESISTANCE TO IT

IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING?!


:V
 
... Are you suggesting we use THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP to join ALL OUR POTENTIALS TOGETHER IN ONE BIG TEAM ATTACK?!

WHICH WOULD OVERWHELM WALPURGISNACHT'S POTENTIAL

AND HAVE THE BONUS OF BEING APPROPRIATELY DRAMATIC

WHICH WOULD LOWER WALPURGISNACHT'S RESISTANCE TO IT

IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING?!


:V
Yes.
 
... Are you suggesting we use THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP to join ALL OUR POTENTIALS TOGETHER IN ONE BIG TEAM ATTACK?!

WHICH WOULD OVERWHELM WALPURGISNACHT'S POTENTIAL

AND HAVE THE BONUS OF BEING APPROPRIATELY DRAMATIC

WHICH WOULD LOWER WALPURGISNACHT'S RESISTANCE TO IT

IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING?!


:V

Such an attack... would need a method of deliverance, and a name.

Perhaps all the magic could be combined into gurren laggan a magical construct?

Or maybe it would be an orbital friendship blast?

considering the people involved such an attack it could potentially be called the yuri cannon...

Walpurgisnacht is the witch of drama right? So an attack tailored specifically towards destroying her could be called "Jumping the Shark" either through the making of a giant magic shark and mauling Walpurgisnacht with it or by having Sayaka make friends with a shark and somehow making Walp fly over it. Walpurgisnacht being the witch of drama would immediately explode out of shame.

Or perhaps the System Breaker Bomb?

Truly there are infinite options...
 
Instead of saying anything about that, you ease back a little so you can lean forward and press a kiss to the tip of her nose. "Don't want to be late for school, right?"

Mami nods firmly, but doesn't move despite the rosy blush spreading across her face. She keeps her face tilted up, smiling.

You giggle, and present your cheek to her. She goes up on tiptoes, brushing her lips against your cheek.

"There, much better." Mami's smile widens, and she steps back. "Now I'm ready to go."

"A-alright," you say, voice squeaking a little. You're sure your face is quite red.

I am still working on things (I got abducted by friends for most of the day) but I just want to say that this gave me the diabeetus the most out of everything.

"C'mere and lemme kiss you. I insist."

It's... It's spectacular. It's confident and happy and secure, oh my god it's secure. There's no worry in it. She insisted on us doing something and she didn't worry about it and oh my god I am completely certain she is exactly as over the moon over her newfound freedom as I am.
 
Yeah, I'm really not sure I like talking about Sayaka this way.

It's pretty easy to forget that Homura can be pretty damned callous since we're close friends with her and can see past that sort of thing to see the genuine goodness underneath. I can see what she's saying, but it's, uh, kind of a jerk thing to say regardless.



Well,


I think you might be buying too much into Homura's view point of her, though there is some truth to it to be fair.
After seeing everyone she cares about die in various ways over and over again, it's logical that she'd become callous. It's an issue we'll have to work on with her.
 
We've figured that Grief rending is probably going to be our best chance at OHKO'ing Walpy, with Mami and other's to back us up if something goes wrong, especially since Walpy may be able to trigger temporary invulnerability.
Grief rending is a battle of wills against Walpurgisnacht and might thus not work properly of fast enough, can't be done in timestop (controlling Grief part of Walpurgisnacht would bring her into time stop), doesn't work against invulnerability, and it's limited to one user because Sayaka can't copy us.

Anti magic in contrast can be spammed by a dozen Sayaka-clones in timestop, which allows us to unleash hundreds of blasts per wave. Anti-magic erodes magical invulnerability, can't be properly countered, and brings overwhelming force to bear fast enough to dissolve Walpurgisnacht and her familiars before they ruin Mitakihara.
That doesn't mean we can rely on that tactic being enough, we need the out of town MG's as backup and plan B (varied abilities means one of them should stick), but IMHO

anti-magic + time stop + clone wars > grief rending


Edit: And yes, Kirika can tune her anti-magic to ignore specific MG abilities, so we can use it while in time stop.
 
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[X] Show happiness/support that Homura's making this effort.
-[X] Playfully chide her for talking about Sayaka as if she were a tool.

[X] Explain Sayaka:
-[X] Sayaka is normal.
--[X] She's got qualities that can be good or bad depending on the situation.
--[X] Normal teenagers fuck up, a lot, and that's OK.
---[X] Normal teenagers aren't supposed to face life or death situations...
---[X] ... much less on their own.
-[X] Homura has mostly seen Sayaka at her worst, and that's KB's plot:
--[X] It isolates girls so they can't get the support they need.
--[X] It forces them into horrible situations they're not prepared to handle.
--[X] "Dedication has no reward."
-[X] Sayaka right now?
--[X] Has that support; gets rewarded for doing good. (Take some credit).
--[X] Everything good Homura's seen of Sayaka? That's just Sayaka being Sayaka... in a fairer system.

[X] During the raid.
-[X] Ask if you can vent a bit.
--[X] Why vent to her? Because you trust her.
--[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
--[X] Don't overwhelm her.
-[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.

(Does the Sayaka talk take up the serious talk slot, or can we still have this little venting session with Homura?)

[X] After the raid...
-[X] Hug Mami
-[X] See the others off at school
-[X] Meet with Oriko to discuss Homura and the potentialbomb.
--[X] Before starting:
---[X] Privacy Device.
---[ ] Ask Oriko in complete confidence whether she's kept any lies of misleadings from you. Promise no repercussions; you're friends.
--[X] Make an enchanted Griefhax psychometer for The Feather at some point during the meeting.


Not very happy with this vote's lenght, but trying to save wordcount on the Sayaka part would really hurt the important details of it. Though if we do keep the venting bit, that and talking about Sayaka will probably take the whole update?

Also taking that bit of Phoenixian's vote about what to do afterwards. We didn't get any answers about the Feather out of Riona, so we should try to examine it somehow. And adding... this? I don't know everyone else, but it would finally get rid of the little Homura-shaped voice as the back of my head that keeps warning me to be careful in case Oriko's playing the really, really long game.
 
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in the distant future Mami and Sabrina inviting people to their marriage is going to be met with 'wait their not married?! ... whats next, Madoka and Homura are'nt either?!"

Madoka: *coughs*

OH COME ON

Kirika: I'm married! YAY! Go Kure's!

(All marriages have Kyouko as presiding priest : P )

[X] Onmur
 
in the distant future Mami and Sabrina inviting people to their marriage is going to be met with 'wait their not married?! ... whats next, Madoka and Homura are'nt either?!"

Madoka: *coughs*

OH COME ON

Kirika: I'm married! YAY! Go Kure's!

(All marriages have Kyouko as presiding priest : P )

[X] Onmur
... Oh boy, imagine if the Pleiades married. All of them. To each other. At the same time.

And just because, have this happen soon after the masquerade is broken.

And then everyone thinks magical girls all marry in large harems.

And Kazumi becomes the face of Magical Girls everywhere.

... Where was I going with this? :thonk:
 
Tried cutting down the wordcount... and failed, but still streamlined some bits, I think :V

[X] Be supportive.
-[X] Playfully chide her for talking about Sayaka as if she were a tool.

[X] Explain Sayaka:
-[X] Sayaka is a normal girl, with normal qualities meant to live a normal life...
--[X] And she fucks things up as teens normally do. Which is normally OK, because normal teenagers have adult guiding and support, and protection from the consequences of their actions.
-[X] Enter Kyuubey:
--[X] KB isolates magical girls, cuts them off from that support and protection.
--[X] Then it forces them into situations they're not prepared to handle.
--[X] "Dedication has no reward", right?
-[X] Sayaka right now:
--[X] Has people she looks up to, who can help and guide her.
--[X] Gets rewarded for doing good.
--[X] (Take some credit.)
--[X] Everything good Homura's seen of Sayaka? That's just Sayaka being Sayaka... in a fairer system.

[X] During the raid.
-[X] Ask if you can vent a bit.
--[X] Why vent to her? Because you trust her.
--[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
--[X] Don't overwhelm her.
-[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.

[X] After the raid...
-[X] Hug Mami
-[X] See the others off at school
-[X] Meet with Oriko.
--[X] Privacy Device.
--[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
--[X] Discuss how the potentialbomb would affect Homura.
--[X] Make an enchanted Griefhax psychometer for the Feather.
 
[X] Homura:
-[X] Playfully chide her for treating Sayaka like a tool.
-[X] Explain that Sayaka is a mostly ordinary teenage girl, with mostly ordinary teenage reactions - exactly the sort of thing that QB preys on.
-[X] We just put Sayaka in a fairer situation, and pushed her to overcome her initial biases. The rest was always just Sayaka being Sayaka.

[X] During the raid.
-[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homura to hear you out.
--[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
--[X] Don't overwhelm her.
-[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.

[X] After the raid...
-[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
-[X] Meet with Oriko.
--[X] Privacy Device.
--[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
--[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
-[X] Use griefhax to examine the feather.

150 words.


Geeze, I have to do everything around here. :V
 
Okay, I'm wary here. Please do not fall into the trap of cutting too much.

Firn has made mistakes before because what was thought to be obvious was not explained, and at other times we've distilled complex points down to meaningless shorthands for what should be entire discussions. For myself I'm adding a bit to my little suggestion to make it clear, but if others would chime in I'd like to hear them.


[X] Respond to Homura:
-[X] Kaizuki's giant thing :V :V :V

[X] During the raid.
-[X] Ask to vent a bit. You trust Homura to hear you out.
--[X] Talk about your frustrations, recurring problems and fears about helping magical girls, and dealing with secrets.
--[X] Don't overwhelm her.
-[X] Lighten up. Geek out about whichever weapons you find.

[X] After the raid...
-[X] Hug Mami and see the others off to school.
-[X] Meet with Oriko.
--[X] Privacy Device.
--[X] Tell O&K they're your friends.
--[X] Discuss the potentialbomb and Homura's reaction.
-[X] Make an Enchanted-Griefhax psychometer to figure out where and who the Feather came from.
 
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-[X] Playfully chide her for talking about Sayaka as if she were a tool.

No. Dude. What even?

Don't... don't tease Homura about actually serious topics. Just don't. Please. She doesn't need that from us.



Anyway.

So, semi-finalized, this is what I would say if I were speaking to Homura here.

[] People are complicated. Millions of tiny features contribute to their actions, and nobody can account for all of them. But.
[] Sayaka is... Loyal, hardworking when she puts her mind to it, strong moral compass... And highly judgemental, with low self-esteem and lower self-worth. For the most part, these traits define who she is, what she does, and how she sees the world.
-[] Stemming from those, and from her youth and lack of experience, she sees the world in black and white. Either someone is a good person with forgivable flaws, or a bad person who might do something decent on occasion but isn't to be trusted... and she makes conclusions about who falls into which category really, really quickly.
--[] It makes her a great friend, someone who will never believe bad things about you, someone who takes your enemies as her own... Just as long as you're not in conflict with another of her friends who she admires more greatly or is closer to.
---[] She values Madoka the most. Then Mami, who she takes as a role model due to her low self-worth and her morals, seeing Mami as a Hero of Justice where she sees herself as just a talentless poor girl. Hitomi falls in there somewhere, but you're much less clear on that. And then the trouble has always been that Sayaka decides Kyubey is good people and doesn't trust or admire Homura enough to place her over Kyubey.
----[] How that actually happens is complicated, and you don't have much information to work with, but it's some blend of Mami trusting Kyubey and Kyubey making good first impressions. You're almost certain it's mostly that Mami trusts Kyubey -- Mami is who Sayaka wants to be, from Sayaka's point of view, so she can't have bad people as her friends.
-----[] Once Sayaka sees Kyubey as a "good person who might have forgivable flaws," and doesn't view Homura more highly than Kyubey... Then it's "Why would Kyubey do that," and what she really means when she says that is "I am not willing to believe you telling me that Kyubey is actually evil." And more recently, when Homura makes a poor first impression on Sayaka, usually coming off as cold, then Sayaka categorizes her as a bad person for it and promptly will believe things like "Homura is the reason Mami is dead," because that's what bad people do, right?
------[] Here, that's been turned on its head from the moment Mami broke down crying about Kyubey being an evil bastard in front of Sayaka. Sayaka admires Mami a helluva lot more than Kyubey -- Mami is the nice cake-baking senpai who risks her life fighting monsters, in Sayaka's eyes, while Kyubey is just kind of there. And so the moment Mami turns on Kyubey, Sayaka believes, and then Kyubey is evil. Meanwhile, Homura is Mami's friend, and Mami can't have bad people as her friends, so Homura is a good person who might have forgivable flaws. Things kind of stay in limbo for a while, because Sayaka hasn't figured out a way to forgive what she sees as Homura's flaws -- and then Walpurgisnacht is explained, and suddenly Homura is Captain Ahab, all abrasive and sketchy and unfriendly but actually she's at heart a good person out to kill a giant monster. Now Homura is Sayaka's friend and a good person, and... well, Sayaka stands by and helps her friends.
---[] As for her tendency to get herself killed through bullheaded idiocy... It's a product of her lack of self worth, her contact with Mami, her rich and/or to her eyes more talented friends, and her morals, and in many ways these things are exacerbated here. Sayaka feels on some level that she's lived her life in the shadow of others, and even that she pulls them down, that she doesn't have anything to contribute to society. Homura may have heard her sometimes say that she doesn't really know what she wants to do with her life... in being a Magical Girl, Sayaka finds a calling. Problem is it's not in being a Magical Girl, but in being the kind of Magical Girl that Mami is. Selflessly protecting others from witches is, she decides, what she can do where Kyousuke has violin, where Hitomi is rich and talented. Add in a good dose of grief and she's totally willing to throw away her own life... and then she also rejects help from anybody she thinks of as a bad person, because bad people aren't to be trusted and therefore accepting their help isn't to be done.
[] ... Put together, all of this is, by the by, why you believe Sayaka in particular, here, would react positively to Homura's past. Telling her about it doesn't work when she's thinking of Kyubey as a good person, or Homura as a bad person. But things are reversed. She wants to believe good things about Homura because Homura is a good person. She'll readily believe bad things about Kyubey because it's a bad "person."

Note the really important part at the end.

BUT.

That's, uh, that's... we are not voting that giant hydra thing in mkay? And... God I dunno.
 
[X] Kaizuki

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT CAT VOTED FOR BUT I TRUST IT

got to go to class
 
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