- Location
- 👁👄👁
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
aaaAAAAHHHHHHH
Sidenote: I now want to draw the Riona scene. It was awesome.
Metasidenote: The above sidenote isn't trying to flame anyone. I just happen to really like the way Firn wrote the scene.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
aaaAAAAHHHHHHH
Sidenote: I now want to draw the Riona scene. It was awesome.
Metasidenote: The above sidenote isn't trying to flame anyone. I just happen to really like the way Firn wrote the scene.
(since this is Kyubey we're talking about)
Sure, Mami could have wished for it but would that wish be sucessfully granted? It isn't like reviving Mami's parents has to be within Mami's potential and even Sayaka sort of didn't return completely.
And Sayaka?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'm really, really not comfortable keeping Sayaka in the dark about Rionna. :\
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Okay, bear in mind the only memories of Sayaka's that got altered was the memory of becoming a witch in of itself. You know, something that Madoka's intent might consider a prerequisite to prevent Sayaka from auto-witching out again from remembering the experience?
Also, Mami's potential is uh. REALLY decent. And reviving the dead is just straight up not portrayed as fucking difficult. If other Magical Girls can, like, I don't know, erase that their sister ever fucking existed, I think undoing a car accident is fine.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I myself wouldn't mind getting Sayaka here... except we'd need to go get her.
If it comes down to taking hostile action right now, then yes we should get Sayaka (and enchants from Kirika). But if we can postpone talking with Riona until tomorrow, we can explain things to Sayaka later tonight.
Meeting a meguca is enough to telepathy them afterwards.
There might be a silver lining, maybe? Didn't Madoka wish to erase all witches in every universe, past and future? Maybe that applies to different timelines too?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
...Well, yea, "every universe" is more broad than "every timeline" by definition.
I'm considering editing that section a bit, honestly. It's not supposed to read as surprise, no, but it's not supposed to read as a completely calm inspection. More like grim resistance. It is a declaration that Rionna hasn't tried to shade you yet.
You know, I agree? I dislike the way I've handled this, personally, and I dislike the way the thread has turned out because of this. It's why I said -and I'm making use of- GM railroading for this.
Chill out, the three of you.
Um, we don't know anything about her sister? For all we know her sister was a vicious serial-killing psychopath that wanted to raise an army of the undead and conquer the world, and Rionna is honoring her memory by atleast conquering Edinburgh.
Not *all* dead-via-backstory sisters need be perfectly angelic people.
Stop this whatabout-ism.
Uhhh, no. Raise as in raise-from-the-dead.
Order of which happened first, the raising or the killing, was not clear from the quote itself, so this is an important clarification.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I dunno I thought that the implication was pretty clear.
I do have a question though. @Firnagzen do we know/will you tell us what the time limit is on Rionna's raising? The impression I've been getting is that she needs to act fairly quickly to snatch the soul before it dissipates (in the case where she's not just tearing the soul out directly) but I've been seeing a bunch of people putting forth theories where Rionna would have to be able to do it hours or even days after death.
Any chance you'd be willing to weigh in? Or is that too much spoiler to allow?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Rionna raising Oriko is potentially what Oriko meant when she said that we'd meet again, when she thought we were about to kill her. If that's the case, then Rionna would able to raise someone a week+ after they died.
GiftOfLove
From the Heart
Question!
Why don't we just kick her out of our city? This is our turf. We can just give her the boot. I definitely don't want her in any kind of range of Oriko or any of our friends, really.
Why don't we just kick her out of our city? This is our turf. We can just give her the boot. I definitely don't want her in any kind of range of Oriko or any of our friends, really.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We want to stop her from killing any more people.
Also, if possible, there's information we want from her.
GiftOfLove
From the Heart
In that case, I recommend we evacuate Oriko and Kirika until she's dealt with. Because Rionna is implied quite heavily to be one of the people who kills her.
So vote for Muramasa's plan that has Sabrina tell her to leave and then walk away.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
If you were addressing me, I genuinely have no idea what 'whataboutism' you are talking about. Trying to figure out what motivated Riona in the past isn't whataboutism, it doesn't excuse or justify her actions in any way. And it's just not what what-aboutism means.
- Location
- Illinois
I have to say, it's kind of disturbing that the current leading vote is founded on two posts consisting of "guys stahp" and a bunch of votes for it that mostly don't explain why they're voting that way.
@Muramasa, let me just lay this out in front of you:
Based on what she has said to our face, this girl isn't trying to bring back a loved one, or even to keep herself alive. Based on what she has said, the reason behind her ongoing murder of innocents
is to torment her sister's killer:
You have made four posts since the threadmark, including the two above:
My Taekwondo instructor when I was young was a Christian ex-cop in a super-stable marriage with a woman who was taller, stronger, and more skilled at Taekwondo than he was.
When I was about eight or nine, I asked him why we shouldn't just let an assailant do whatever and let the courts sort it out.
His response was to tell me a story about a friend he'd had who had thought the same way. It was a short story, and it went like this: "Don't think that way. I had a friend who thought that way, once. I had to process her rape and murder."
That was the day that I understood that whatever society might try to do, there remain people in this world whom we colloquially refer to as scum, or perhaps as evil.
When a woman comes to you, and she tells you that she engages in murder and maybe soul-slavery for the sake of torturing the ghost of her sister's killer, you know that you are speaking to the face of evil. Whether or not that face is evoked by circumstance is irrelevant the moment life is at risk: a drunk with a rifle in the nightclub is on the wrong side, whatever he might be like sober.
When Rionna Mag Aoidh stood before us and said the things she did, she was evil.
It is one thing to try to redeem evil. It is another to stand aside and allow it to walk free. Whether or not someone else stops it afterwards, you will have stood aside.
Now, here is the important part.
What I wrote above here isn't an issue for any of you. You are allowed your own views, and your own ideas.
Your issue is this: what I have written will constitute Sayaka's opinion on the matter. Search your understanding of her character: the swordswoman who judged Homura, who judged Kyouko, who judged those two people for nothing more than coming off as despicable to her. She thought Homura had let Mami die, and that Kyouko was party to negligent homicide and being a terrible person. Search your understanding of Miki Sayaka and you will know that when Sayaka learns that when Rionna Mag Aoidh stood before us and told us that she engages in murder and maybe soul-slavery for the sake of torturing the ghost of her sister's killer, when Miki Sayaka learns that we stood aside...
At that moment Miki Sayaka, who judged Homura, who judged Kyouko, will judge Rionna Mag Aoidh: she will find Rionna Mag Aoidh to be a million times worse than she found Homura or Kyouko: and then she will judge us to have stood aside and allowed evil to walk free in the form of Rionna Mag Aoidh, and nothing we will be able to say to her will convince her otherwise.
At that moment, in allowing Rionna Mag Aoidh to return as-she-is to Scotland, we will have committed against Sayaka the sort of action we take such care not to commit against Homura: a complete betrayal of trust placed in us. Homura trusts us to make decisions that do not endanger Madoka. Sayaka trusts us to make moral decisions that she does not view as utterly, unacceptably wrong. We saw her reaction to being kept out of the loop on Oriko. Responding to a decision by us to stand aside from Rionna Mag Aoidh, Sayaka will break from us, and that will be that. (1)
At that moment, this chapter of Puella Magi Adfligo Systema will end. We will be in a place that was directly foreshadowed all the way back in Anomalous Materials:
This must not happen.
@Onmur, you mentioned that while @Firnagzen often states that the answers lie in the direction of the Magical Girl Classic, he also often states that they additionally tend to lie in the direction of being kind and nice.
I will add to those observations this: @Firnagzen also routinely states that this is a hard quest. By my reckoning, we've done pretty well at it for the most part. But if we make a choice that results in Sayaka breaking away from us, I would expect things to go south very, very fast.
I came here for Tomoe Mami. I am here, now, because what I see here is an open chance to shoot ourselves in the foot so hard that we might lose even her, in the end. If we enter Resonance Cascade, there's no telling where we might come out. Let's not do that. And so:
Rionna Mag Aoidh has made it clear to us that she means to leave tomorrow on a pre-booked round-trip ticket. If we had dropped the conversation with her at the very start, if we had not learned of her what we now have, I suppose we could have gotten away with letting her go. We no longer have that luxury.
The fact of the matter at this point is that we must either make progress towards redeeming Rionna Mag Aoidh or else take action against her, and that one of these must happen before she boards her plane back to Scotland.
If we do neither, Miki Sayaka will eventually learn of our actions: whether from us, or from the Incubator. We may be in a privacy sphere currently, but there is nothing to stop Kyubey from simply telling Sayaka that we spoke with a prolific murderer and torturess whose primary motivation is her hate for the bound spirit of her sister's killer, and that we did nothing. At that point, our only hope would be to start building a tower of lies, where we've just spent a good chunk of an IRL year demolishing the pre-existing one that we'd inadvertently built up since the start of the quest.
That tower of lies would come crashing down, whether sooner or later: I say this with certainty borne of the understanding that in the Magical Girl Classic genre, and in the sort of material which is PMMM, towers of lies always crash to the ground, without fail.
I have already made my intentions perfectly clear. I intend to see either progress or action made here. Now.
What I perceive is that there are currently nine votes to allow Rionna Mag Aoidh to leave the city without making progress towards her redemption or taking action against her:
@Muramasa, @kinigget, @Briefvoice, @Nele, @drake_azathoth, @PlanckConstant, @Nachtigall, @Romka, @moonstne.
@Muramasa, you have made four posts since the previous threadmark.
@kinigget, you have made four posts since the previous threadmark.
@Briefvoice, you have made seven posts since the previous threadmark.
@Nele, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa".
@drake_azathoth, you have made five posts since the previous threadmark. At least one of them was... interesting.
@PlanckConstant, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
@Nachtigall, you have made one post since the previous threadmark. It consisted of more than just an X and the name "Muramasa."
@Romka, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
@moonstne, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
None of you have said anything about what we should do in the aftermath of the vote you are voting for.
None of you have accounted for how we will justify our actions to Sayaka.
All of you have given me the impression that you are voting to allow Rionna Mag Aoidh to leave Mitakihara without either making progress towards redeeming her or taking action against her.
I will hold each and every one of you personally responsible if your vote leads us to Resonance Cascade.
I would suggest you begin posting more than you have been.
... And @GiftOfLove, you've earned a guest mention here. This is why simply "kicking her out of our city" is not a good idea.
(1) -- The timing could cause this to occur in different ways. For example, calling up Sayaka in the next hour or so and explaining all this to her will probably result in her trying to kill Rionna personally, which would end in her death without our intervention, and maybe even with our intervention, since she would reject our help.
@Muramasa, let me just lay this out in front of you:
Based on what she has said to our face, this girl isn't trying to bring back a loved one, or even to keep herself alive. Based on what she has said, the reason behind her ongoing murder of innocents
is to torment her sister's killer:
You have made four posts since the threadmark, including the two above:
My Taekwondo instructor when I was young was a Christian ex-cop in a super-stable marriage with a woman who was taller, stronger, and more skilled at Taekwondo than he was.
When I was about eight or nine, I asked him why we shouldn't just let an assailant do whatever and let the courts sort it out.
His response was to tell me a story about a friend he'd had who had thought the same way. It was a short story, and it went like this: "Don't think that way. I had a friend who thought that way, once. I had to process her rape and murder."
That was the day that I understood that whatever society might try to do, there remain people in this world whom we colloquially refer to as scum, or perhaps as evil.
When a woman comes to you, and she tells you that she engages in murder and maybe soul-slavery for the sake of torturing the ghost of her sister's killer, you know that you are speaking to the face of evil. Whether or not that face is evoked by circumstance is irrelevant the moment life is at risk: a drunk with a rifle in the nightclub is on the wrong side, whatever he might be like sober.
When Rionna Mag Aoidh stood before us and said the things she did, she was evil.
It is one thing to try to redeem evil. It is another to stand aside and allow it to walk free. Whether or not someone else stops it afterwards, you will have stood aside.
Now, here is the important part.
What I wrote above here isn't an issue for any of you. You are allowed your own views, and your own ideas.
Your issue is this: what I have written will constitute Sayaka's opinion on the matter. Search your understanding of her character: the swordswoman who judged Homura, who judged Kyouko, who judged those two people for nothing more than coming off as despicable to her. She thought Homura had let Mami die, and that Kyouko was party to negligent homicide and being a terrible person. Search your understanding of Miki Sayaka and you will know that when Sayaka learns that when Rionna Mag Aoidh stood before us and told us that she engages in murder and maybe soul-slavery for the sake of torturing the ghost of her sister's killer, when Miki Sayaka learns that we stood aside...
At that moment Miki Sayaka, who judged Homura, who judged Kyouko, will judge Rionna Mag Aoidh: she will find Rionna Mag Aoidh to be a million times worse than she found Homura or Kyouko: and then she will judge us to have stood aside and allowed evil to walk free in the form of Rionna Mag Aoidh, and nothing we will be able to say to her will convince her otherwise.
At that moment, in allowing Rionna Mag Aoidh to return as-she-is to Scotland, we will have committed against Sayaka the sort of action we take such care not to commit against Homura: a complete betrayal of trust placed in us. Homura trusts us to make decisions that do not endanger Madoka. Sayaka trusts us to make moral decisions that she does not view as utterly, unacceptably wrong. We saw her reaction to being kept out of the loop on Oriko. Responding to a decision by us to stand aside from Rionna Mag Aoidh, Sayaka will break from us, and that will be that. (1)
At that moment, this chapter of Puella Magi Adfligo Systema will end. We will be in a place that was directly foreshadowed all the way back in Anomalous Materials:
This must not happen.
@Onmur, you mentioned that while @Firnagzen often states that the answers lie in the direction of the Magical Girl Classic, he also often states that they additionally tend to lie in the direction of being kind and nice.
I will add to those observations this: @Firnagzen also routinely states that this is a hard quest. By my reckoning, we've done pretty well at it for the most part. But if we make a choice that results in Sayaka breaking away from us, I would expect things to go south very, very fast.
I came here for Tomoe Mami. I am here, now, because what I see here is an open chance to shoot ourselves in the foot so hard that we might lose even her, in the end. If we enter Resonance Cascade, there's no telling where we might come out. Let's not do that. And so:
Rionna Mag Aoidh has made it clear to us that she means to leave tomorrow on a pre-booked round-trip ticket. If we had dropped the conversation with her at the very start, if we had not learned of her what we now have, I suppose we could have gotten away with letting her go. We no longer have that luxury.
The fact of the matter at this point is that we must either make progress towards redeeming Rionna Mag Aoidh or else take action against her, and that one of these must happen before she boards her plane back to Scotland.
If we do neither, Miki Sayaka will eventually learn of our actions: whether from us, or from the Incubator. We may be in a privacy sphere currently, but there is nothing to stop Kyubey from simply telling Sayaka that we spoke with a prolific murderer and torturess whose primary motivation is her hate for the bound spirit of her sister's killer, and that we did nothing. At that point, our only hope would be to start building a tower of lies, where we've just spent a good chunk of an IRL year demolishing the pre-existing one that we'd inadvertently built up since the start of the quest.
That tower of lies would come crashing down, whether sooner or later: I say this with certainty borne of the understanding that in the Magical Girl Classic genre, and in the sort of material which is PMMM, towers of lies always crash to the ground, without fail.
I have already made my intentions perfectly clear. I intend to see either progress or action made here. Now.
What I perceive is that there are currently nine votes to allow Rionna Mag Aoidh to leave the city without making progress towards her redemption or taking action against her:
@Muramasa, @kinigget, @Briefvoice, @Nele, @drake_azathoth, @PlanckConstant, @Nachtigall, @Romka, @moonstne.
@Muramasa, you have made four posts since the previous threadmark.
@kinigget, you have made four posts since the previous threadmark.
@Briefvoice, you have made seven posts since the previous threadmark.
@Nele, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa".
@drake_azathoth, you have made five posts since the previous threadmark. At least one of them was... interesting.
@PlanckConstant, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
@Nachtigall, you have made one post since the previous threadmark. It consisted of more than just an X and the name "Muramasa."
@Romka, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
@moonstne, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
None of you have said anything about what we should do in the aftermath of the vote you are voting for.
None of you have accounted for how we will justify our actions to Sayaka.
All of you have given me the impression that you are voting to allow Rionna Mag Aoidh to leave Mitakihara without either making progress towards redeeming her or taking action against her.
I will hold each and every one of you personally responsible if your vote leads us to Resonance Cascade.
I would suggest you begin posting more than you have been.
... And @GiftOfLove, you've earned a guest mention here. This is why simply "kicking her out of our city" is not a good idea.
(1) -- The timing could cause this to occur in different ways. For example, calling up Sayaka in the next hour or so and explaining all this to her will probably result in her trying to kill Rionna personally, which would end in her death without our intervention, and maybe even with our intervention, since she would reject our help.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
.... so Deja Vu in PMMM is from echos of other planes of reality/timelines pinging the 'present' you?
[Jk] Muramasa wearing cat ears
I CANT CHOOSE
AAAH HELP
- Location
- Illinois
[X] Mami: clandestinely communicate that you want her to get Kirika and Sayaka over here, and fall back to a point within visual range of a point within 100 meters of you, but as far from Rionna as possible. Homura should stay farther away.
[X] Ask Rionna if you may cleanse her.
[X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from securing justice for her sister to taking away the sisters of others? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
[X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary, but start with minimal force. What can be accomplished with words instead of force should be.
[X] Talk to her:
-[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
-[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
-[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.
[X] Ask Rionna if you may cleanse her.
[X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from securing justice for her sister to taking away the sisters of others? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
[X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary, but start with minimal force. What can be accomplished with words instead of force should be.
[X] Talk to her:
-[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
-[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
-[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I'm just gonna post a tally here for information's sake, I hope that's okay.
I definitely agree that we've had an option cut off here, Rionna cannot be permitted to walk away from this without change. Either we take her out, or we redeem her, one way or another.
I definitely agree that we've had an option cut off here, Rionna cannot be permitted to walk away from this without change. Either we take her out, or we redeem her, one way or another.
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