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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kaizuki said:
@Onmur, you mentioned that while @Firnagzen often states that the answers lie in the direction of the Magical Girl Classic, he also often states that they additionally tend to lie in the direction of being kind and nice.

I will add to those observations this: @Firnagzen also routinely states that this is a hard quest. By my reckoning, we've done pretty well at it for the most part. But if we make a choice that results in Sayaka breaking away from us, I would expect things to go south very, very fast.
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I maintain my stance: Stop arguing now, talk again with Riona later (probably in the morning; keep watch on her overnight).

You've been pushing to argue right now, even though that will most likely cause a fight. They way you phrase it at some point, you seem to believe this is right. That making this a fight is right. That, I believe, is exaggerating the 'Magical Girl Classic' angle.

Breaking away from the conversation for now, so we can continue it once heads have cooled, is not the same as letting Riona leave Mitakihara.

We should inform Sayaka of everything after we've left in peace for the night, alongside or after talking with Mami and Homura. Sayaka will be disgusted with Riona, but we will not have let Riona leave Mitakihara to continue her atrocities.

I am, in fact, planning to throw Riona in Anti-Magic prison after getting all the information we can from her.

I'm pretty sure this is not a plan that'll have Sayaka breaking away from us.
 
Kaizuki said:
What I perceive is that there are currently nine votes to allow Rionna Mag Aoidh to leave the city without making progress towards her redemption or taking action against her:

@Muramasa, @kinigget, @Briefvoice, @Nele, @drake_azathoth, @PlanckConstant, @Nachtigall, @Romka, @moonstne.

@Muramasa, you have made four posts since the previous threadmark.

@kinigget, you have made four posts since the previous threadmark.

@Briefvoice, you have made seven posts since the previous threadmark.

@Nele, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa".

@drake_azathoth, you have made five posts since the previous threadmark. At least one of them was... interesting.

@PlanckConstant, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."

@Nachtigall, you have made one post since the previous threadmark. It consisted of more than just an X and the name "Muramasa."

@Romka, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."

@moonstne, you have made one post since the previous threadmark, consisting of the an X and the name "Muramasa."
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People don't have to justify their votes to you, but I will since I feel like it.

I think walking away for the moment is the best opportunity to deescalate the situation and make a good faith gesture. Everything Sabrina has said up until now about wanting to help Riona find another way has been with an implicit threat. It was unintentional on the part of the players, but there is no way that Riona does not feel trapped by this privacy construct and that Sabrina's statements do not come off with an implicit "or else" attached in her mind. Call me an optimist but I am not quite ready to give up hope of reaching her. Not quite yet. However it's evident it's not going to happen with the way this conversation is playing out right here and right now.

As for Sayaka, she's a child who has a dangerous capacity to make extreme and ill-considered decisions and I refuse to build Sabrina's strategy around what she will approve of. At the appropriate time (a future vote) we can explain to her that Sabrina does not intend to let Riona get away with this forever but is not ready to go directly to violence against someone who is not an immediate threat and who we do not yet fully understand.
 
Briefvoice said:
As for Sayaka, she's a child who has a dangerous capacity to make extreme and ill-considered decisions and I refuse to build Sabrina's strategy around what she will approve of.
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On one hand, you are literally correct about this fact, on the other hand, even if Sayaka has a fairly black and white view and tendencies towards ill-considered extremes, in this particular case, I firmly believe that she would be absolutely correct to judge us for such a decision.

Just because she's generally wrong does not mean we can dismiss her out of hand in such a case. While we might not want to act based on how she does in other situations, in this situation it would not be wrong to do so.
 
Onmur said:
I maintain my stance: Stop arguing now, talk again with Riona later (probably in the morning; keep watch on her overnight).

You've been pushing to argue right now, even though that will most likely cause a fight. They way you phrase it at some point, you seem to believe this is right. That making this a fight is right. That, I believe, is exaggerating the 'Magical Girl Classic' angle.

Breaking away from the conversation for now, so we can continue it once heads have cooled, is not the same as letting Riona leave Mitakihara.

We should inform Sayaka of everything after we've left in peace for the night, alongside or after talking with Mami and Homura. Sayaka will be disgusted with Riona, but we will not have let Riona leave Mitakihara to continue her atrocities.

I am, in fact, planning to throw Riona in Anti-Magic prison after getting all the information we can from her.

I'm pretty sure this is not a plan that'll have Sayaka breaking away from us.
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And that is why I did not ping you in that giant list. You want to take a break from this until tomorrow, and that's legitimate. Your vote is reasonable.

My understanding of the vote I am criticizing is quite different.
 
Briefvoice said:
we can explain to her that Sabrina does not intend to let Riona get away with this forever but is not ready to go directly to violence against someone who is not an immediate threat and who we do not yet fully understand.
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A better sell would be 'she can rip your soul out of your gem - I'm not starting a fight against *that* unless I'm good and ready'.

also @Kaizuki - I think you may be coming off as a little... aggressive with that last post. Asking people why they choose something is good and all but throwing a metaphorical gauntlet down along with a list of names may get taken the wrong way. It may also just entrench people rather then foster a debate.
 
I think the idea of the list was more to let people know that they should be talking in the thread more since all of them are supporting a vote without (apparently at least) bothering to keep up with the conversation or change it as new arguments and stances emerge.
 
Briefvoice said:
As for Sayaka, she's a child who has a dangerous capacity to make extreme and ill-considered decisions and I refuse to build Sabrina's strategy around what she will approve of. At the appropriate time (a future vote) we can explain to her that Sabrina does not intend to let Riona get away with this forever but is not ready to go directly to violence against someone who is not an immediate threat and who we do not yet fully understand.
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This is a spectacular manner of side-stepping the entire point I brought up about the consequences of Sayaka breaking with us.

"I don't intend to make decisions based on the opinions of a child" is a decent thing to do, when that child is not the best friend of the girl with her finger on the nuclear launch button.

Did you not read what I wrote? Do you not understand the material? What kind of quest do you think this is? What kind of discussion do you think this is, that you can reply to "doing this moves us closer to bad ending the damn quest" with "I refuse to make decisions based on a child's opinions"???
 
Spectral Waltz said:
I think the idea of the list was more to let people know that they should be talking in the thread more since all of them are supporting a vote without (apparently at least) bothering to keep up with the conversation or change it as new arguments and stances emerge.
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Just saying it came off as agressive to *me* in the larger context of the post.

also while I'm posting.

@Onmur what are the differences between your vote and @Muramasa ? They both seem to let her go and break to consulting the rest of the group.


Also if we do fight Rionna... why do I feel like we should give Kyouko a pass phrase or something? Like 'if we come back, are weird and can't reply to this then we got our souls yanked and turned into actual undead horrors'
 
DB_Explorer said:
Just saying it came off as agressive to *me* in the larger context of the post.
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And I'm saying that was both clearly not the intent and that there probably wasn't really any better or more tactful way to go about it.

Also I still don't think Rionna is a credible threat to us, if only because I firmly believe that we can take her out in under a second.
 
Kaizuki said:
This is a spectacular manner of side-stepping the entire point I brought up about the consequences of Sayaka breaking with us.

"I don't intend to make decisions based on the opinions of a child" is a decent thing to do, when that child is not the best friend of the girl with her finger on the nuclear launch button.

Did you not read what I wrote? Do you not understand the material? What kind of quest do you think this is? What kind of discussion do you think this is, that you can reply to "doing this moves us closer to bad ending the damn quest" with "I refuse to make decisions based on a child's opinions"???
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I have a lot greater confidence in Sabrina's ability push Sayaka to chill out and calm down then you do. Not with lies but by proactively framing the situation in a light where not throwing down immediately is reasonable.

EDIT: Of course, if you as a player are incapable of seeing it as a reasonable choice then you're not going to believe in Sabrina's ability to do that. Since I do think it's reasonable then I'm going to have a different opinion.
 
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Spectral Waltz said:
And I'm saying that was both clearly not the intent and that there probably wasn't really any better or more tactful way to go about it.

Also I still don't think Rionna is a credible threat to us, if only because I firmly believe that we can take her out in under a second.
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Yeah I can see that... I might just be a little overly cautious in the thread at the moment.

 
Redshirt Army said:
@Kaizuki . Calm down.

I (mostly) agree with you, but you're making this too confrontational.
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You're completely correct, yes.

DB_Explorer said:
Just saying it came off as agressive to *me* in the larger context of the post.
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I am under a certain degree of stress, here, and I think it is boiling over. The 1.5k-word post was in part the result of me looking into why the lead vote was in the lead and discovering that there was no argument for it for me to tackle. The list of tags was to draw attention.

The response to that post as of thus far has been, ah, frustrating.
 
DB_Explorer said:
@Onmur what are the differences between your vote and @Muramasa ? They both seem to let her go and break to consulting the rest of the group.
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Onmur's vote has a much less argumentative tone towards Rionna, lacking as it does Kai's denunciation of Rionna's approach. This makes it less likely to cause Rionna to respond with direct violence, which is what Onmur's concerns have been about - if Kai's vote is "baiting" an attack from Rionna, is it really a better choice, or just one that makes Sabrina feel better?

On the other hand... it's not like Rionna's actions don't deserve to be denounced. Still, who's the actual audience of that speech? I doubt Rionna's going to actually change her views because of it, and we're in a privacy barrier, so isn't Sabrina literally just saying it to herself? (Or, from a Doylist perspective, isn't Kai's speech directed more towards the thread as an audience then towards Rionna?)
 
Redshirt Army said:
Onmur's vote has a much less argumentative tone towards Rionna, lacking as it does Kai's denunciation of Rionna's approach. This makes it less likely to cause Rionna to respond with direct violence, which is what Onmur's concerns have been about - if Kai's vote is "baiting" an attack from Rionna, is it really a better choice, or just one that makes Sabrina feel better?

On the other hand... it's not like Rionna's actions don't deserve to be denounced. Still, who's the actual audience of that speech? I doubt Rionna's going to actually change her views because of it, and we're in a privacy barrier, so isn't Sabrina literally just saying it to herself? (Or, from a Doylist perspective, isn't Kai's speech directed more towards the thread as an audience then towards Rionna?)
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You're right, again, in some ways.

[X] Mami: clandestinely communicate that you want her to get Kirika and Sayaka over here, and fall back to a point within visual range of a point within 100 meters of you, but as far from Rionna as possible. Homura should stay farther away.
[X] Ask Rionna if you may cleanse her.
[X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary, but start with minimal force. What can be accomplished with words instead of force should be.
[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
[X] Talk to her:
-[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
-[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching.
 
Kaizuki said:
You're completely correct, yes.



I am under a certain degree of stress, here, and I think it is boiling over. The 1.5k-word post was in part the result of me looking into why the lead vote was in the lead and discovering that there was no argument for it for me to tackle. The list of tags was to draw attention.

The response to that post as of thus far has been, ah, frustrating.
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Ah true... I've not voted for it. I was tempted to since it lets us back off but Onmur's vote does that as well. You do make solid arguments for why we should press on up to, and including, getting in a fight. I though am wary of starting the fight against a soul magic wielder with very little prep.

Redshirt Army said:
Onmur's vote has a much less argumentative tone towards Rionna, lacking as it does Kai's denunciation of Rionna's approach. This makes it less likely to cause Rionna to respond with direct violence, which is what Onmur's concerns have been about - if Kai's vote is "baiting" an attack from Rionna, is it really a better choice, or just one that makes Sabrina feel better?

On the other hand... it's not like Rionna's actions don't deserve to be denounced. Still, who's the actual audience of that speech? I doubt Rionna's going to actually change her views because of it, and we're in a privacy barrier, so isn't Sabrina literally just saying it to herself? (Or, from a Doylist perspective, isn't Kai's speech directed more towards the thread as an audience then towards Rionna?)
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.... well yeah

It's why I asked about Onmur vs Muramasa. Those differences are... less obvious.
 
DB_Explorer said:
@Onmur what are the differences between your vote and @Muramasa ? They both seem to let her go and break to consulting the rest of the group.
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Mura's vote does not do anything with the fact Riona tried to use magic on us, as I believe we should. Riona just attempted something forceful and lost. We can capitalize on it now, or let her brush it off.

I believe it's social ammunition we should use. Make demands.

Which Mura's vote does not do. That vote does leave open the chance to come back after leaving, in timestop, and gank Riona, but does not secure a future meeting with Riona before she leaves Mitakihara.

I believe we can secure such a meeting, as a concession since Riona just tried to pull shit; it seems so far her word can be trusted to an extent, so if she agrees to talk tomorrow, I'd trust her enough to consider it done (though still keep watch over Riona as long as she stays).

Not to insult Mura or his voters, but I feel his vote comes off too much as 'this girl attacked us, run away'.

Which seems a reaction against 'this girl attacked us, kill her'.

I don't want either. I want to re-take control, secure a meeting, then break away on our terms, not Riona's. If nothing else, because she might think she can just push us around if we go away just because she does what she just did.

So not saying we should answer in kind, but call her out and make small demands.
 
DB_Explorer said:
.... well yeah

It's why I asked about Onmur vs Muramasa. Those differences are... less obvious.
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...

Welp.

My bad?

The main difference between Mura and Onmur is that Mura doesn't try to get info from Rionna, and apparently seeks to specifically exclude Sayaka from the timestop discussion. This is... highly questionable, in my opinion.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Onmur's vote has a much less argumentative tone towards Rionna, lacking as it does Kai's denunciation of Rionna's approach. This makes it less likely to cause Rionna to respond with direct violence, which is what Onmur's concerns have been about - if Kai's vote is "baiting" an attack from Rionna, is it really a better choice, or just one that makes Sabrina feel better?

On the other hand... it's not like Rionna's actions don't deserve to be denounced. Still, who's the actual audience of that speech? I doubt Rionna's going to actually change her views because of it, and we're in a privacy barrier, so isn't Sabrina literally just saying it to herself? (Or, from a Doylist perspective, isn't Kai's speech directed more towards the thread as an audience then towards Rionna?)
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I think he asked for comparison between my and Mura's votes, not mine and Kai's.

Still, I believe we can state our opinion on Riona's shit, though I have basically left it up to Brinapilot for the time being ("call her out" without specifying). I could see adding making a statement against Riona's life choices, but not arguing, simply because I believe trying to argue will most likely start a fight, seeing as we already pushed Riona past the point of Social and she tried to use magic to push us away.

I wouldn't say 100%, but between arguing now, and telling her off ('denouncing') now and arguing tomorrow, I'd take arguing tomorrow.

(Well, I personally wouldn't see much point in arguing anymore, given the revelation about Riona's Wish. At this point I'd throw Riona into Anti-Magic prison and argue later, once she stews for a while. But maybe that's just me.)

EDIT: Somewhat ninja'd by the infinitely massive being.
 
Onmur said:
Mura's vote does not do anything with the fact Riona tried to use magic on us, as I believe we should. Riona just attempted something forceful and lost. We can capitalize on it now, or let her brush it off.

I believe it's social ammunition we should use. Make demands.

Which Mura's vote does not do. That vote does leave open the chance to come back after leaving, in timestop, and gank Riona, but does not secure a future meeting with Riona before she leaves Mitakihara.
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If there is a productive discussion to be had, I think Riona has to initiate it. Sabinra told her a lot of very intriguing stuff in the past few minutes. Stuff that by rights should excite her curiosity and avarice. Only because Riona feels like she's under threat, she's just instinctively saying "no" to everything. Every response has been a stubborn refusal.

So I say, leave without any more demands. Let Riona brood about everything Sabrina offered, and I think the fly will come to the honey when the human is no longer around waving their hands at the fly. She'll call us.
 
Briefvoice said:
Obviously I do not understand your argument then. I have no idea what you meant by "resonance cascade" written in red, for one thing. Or any of this finger on the nuclear button stuff.
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I would suggest -- and this is me being very serious, here -- that perhaps what is wrong with my posts, then, is my assumption that you are aware of the base material, Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

In that material, all of Madoka Kaname's friends get themselves killed, and this prompts her to sacrifice her presence in reality to become a metaphysical law with the power to do better by them.

The implications of Resonance Cascade are myriad and poorly defined. If you read things closely, you will glean that it was supposed to be, generally speaking, ominous and very very bad. One of the primary themes of PMMM was how one person dying, getting killed, turning into a witch, etc. would lead to everyone else going the same route in short order. Thus, the implication I am making -- and that Resonance Cascade as a potential chapter title makes -- is that somebody fucking dies (Sayaka, who is very skilled at getting herself killed, as you would be aware if you knew the source material) and then somebody else fucking dies as a result.

We do not want to enter Resonance Cascade. It presents an incredible chance of bad-ending the quest.

Your argument about "not basing our choices on the opinions of a child" is... it's literally comically stupid in the context of PMMM. If Sayaka decides she doesn't like what we're doing, she will break from us. On her own, Sayaka has, for a hundred or so loops, consistently managed to either get herself killed or turn into a witch. She runs off on her own after getting upset at the people who are trying to help her, she builds up grief, acts irrationally, and then fucking dies. The implication made by the source material is that she does this on a regular basis, virtually every loop.

In the source material, this is followed within ten or so minutes of screen time by Kyouko killing herself trying to talk down Sayaka's witch.

Before all of that, Mami fucks up and dies, and her death creates a rift between Sayaka and... everyone else.

If we do something to cause Sayaka to split off from us and go do her own thing, this is not a setting where we can just take her in hand and ignore her opinions and treat her like a child.

If we do something to cause Sayaka to split off from us and go do her own thing, then statistically speaking, the odds are that she will get herself fucking killed within a couple days.

If Sayaka gets herself killed, Madoka will be stressed by it. We will be one giant step closer to bad-ending the quest with Madoka doing something to make Homura loop out (i.e., making a wish).

All of that is literally what happens in the source material. Kyouko and Homura try to help Sayaka, but she is convinced that they are bad people because she does not like the decisions they have made, and so she refuses their help, which causes her death, which causes Kyouko's death, and all of this leads up to Homura eventually choosing to let herself die/witch to Walpurgisnacht, at which point Madoka breaks the universe with a miracle.

Do you understand why I am so offended by the argument you made, now?
 
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