- Location
- Illinois
It's meant as a reply to a direct attempt to leave rather than her saying "I want to leave." Do you think that's not clear enough?
E: Also, thanks for this post:
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
It's meant as a reply to a direct attempt to leave rather than her saying "I want to leave." Do you think that's not clear enough?
E: Also, thanks for this post:
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I can't agree on this. This is not something to pursue.
'We fight most people we try to social, and that's absolutely on theme with the magical girl classic.' Sorry, to me this sounds like a justification to fuck up, or to not try our best to do our best.
We don't need this fixed right now. We got until Riona's plane leaves tomorrow to social and probably detain her.
If we can say everything we have to say without Riona snapping, we should choose so. Time is something we have on our side, and we should use it, even if it's not a lot.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
Now I'm curious, can you PM it to me? Many thanks in advance!
- Location
- Illinois
I can respect that.
For me, however, I see two things here. I see this:
And I see the words "Magical girl classic."
I cannot believe that any action which does not repudiate this sentiment being used as a rationale for Rionna's activities can possibly reflect the attitude of a magical girl classic. It's the kind of line that you're supposed to respond to with "If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time."
My vote is relatively confrontational, it's true. But backing down after that statement is wrong. It must be met.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
I cannot fucking believe I was looking forward to this meeting for so long. Some thoughts on a vote that doesn't start with "Well, we tried", because I don't have the time or battery life right now.
[] Bullshit. You wanted revenge. You stopped caring about justice the moment you started murdering innocents.
[] If she just wanted to resurrect the dead, why didn't she just fucking say so? It's possibly the least impossible thing on our agenda.
-[] We've been building a network to try to un-fuck everything that white shit-rat's been responsible for, and Nadia recommended her to us because we needed an expert.
-[] We've had some questions burning a hole in our pocket for a while now, so maybe she could stop being a complete goddamn sociopath for five minutes so one of us can get something out of this?
[] Bullshit. You wanted revenge. You stopped caring about justice the moment you started murdering innocents.
[] If she just wanted to resurrect the dead, why didn't she just fucking say so? It's possibly the least impossible thing on our agenda.
-[] We've been building a network to try to un-fuck everything that white shit-rat's been responsible for, and Nadia recommended her to us because we needed an expert.
-[] We've had some questions burning a hole in our pocket for a while now, so maybe she could stop being a complete goddamn sociopath for five minutes so one of us can get something out of this?
- Location
- Your Native Universe
The details are sparse, but from what I could interpret, the Pleiade Saints really didn't have that much to work with when they were resurrecting Kazumi except maybe some records of Michiru's memories held by Umika. They created the bodies from scratch with the help of Niko, and then had a Cor Maleficus to act as the clones' cores after the Pleaides jump started the clones with all of their magic.
Any attempt to give the clones Michiru's memories upon creation caused them all to go nuts after some time. The only reason that Kazumi didn't go nuts was because she was created as a blank slate without any of Michiru's memories, and while she was given some memories by Umika, they definitely had falsified parts and only included bit parts of Michiru's life. Another reason why Kazumi was probably more stable was because even before receiving fake memories involving Michiru, she clearly differentiated herself from Michiru, preventing a sort of conflict of identity or cognitive dissonance that the other clones may have been driven nuts by.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
[x] Kaizuki
Catgirl is wise~
Catgirl is wise~
- Location
- Earth, probably.
- Pronouns
- None/Any
I'm tempted to suggest asking what if her sister would have wanted her to do this but as with asking why she didn't wish her sister back I'm worried Rionna might witch out on us. In front of Mami.
Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
My issue isn't that letting Rionna go is too risky, and must be avoided; my issue is that if we're going to timestop convo and put her in meguca jail anyway, why take the risk at all?
Continuing social with her is pointless if we plan to put her in the slammer, so why take the risk, no matter how small it is?
Basically, unless continuing socials with her will convince us to let her go, then no risk is worth it, however small. We want her to stop taking shades, release the ones she has, and all that, and she's firmly said no to all of the above, so why take a tactical disadvantage to continue socialz?
Yes, releasing the privacy field will probably calm down Riona, but then what? She leaves, we talk with the others, and it looks like we'll decide to jail her. So why? If we're going to jail her, (with agreement from all the others,) better to do it before she can hurt anyone else.
Except... Homura isn't here, and most votes only call her after Rionna's gone.
Unless I did a forget, in which case disregard the above point.
Enhhh, I'm rambling, aren't I...
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Huh. Curious. I really oughta read Kazumi Magica for context at some point soon.
But yeah- obviously this isn't an example of successful True Resurrection- but it's value as something to keep in mind about our allies' tech trees and avenues of exploration remains a thing.
And then of course we're back around to asking- What does Riona want? Is it True Resurrection, or is that yet another wrong tree to bark up?
The world
1. Half of your conversation hinges on the fact you can revive a person with a wish. Is that successfully possible without, say, a Madokami-level wish?
2. I get your reasonings for not gemming or not let go now, but what are your plan in general? Because as things are now there are two options: let go or kill/gem her and as things are now not doing any is just stalling (yep, I'm aware of the metaphorical third option, I'm explicitly asking about what it is in this case)
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- Location
- Illinois
Don't call me wise yet.
I've got the right motivations and directions, I think. Everything I've ever been told in this thread is screaming as much at me. What Rionna said must be contested, and the fact that there were obvious potential solutions in the direction of not being isolated, hard, and focused on revenge instead of on hope must be highlighted. But the details on that need to be open for discussion.
I'm less certain about the order than I am of other things. The gist of line two needs to be said at some point, but whether it belongs before or after lines four and five is an open question. The general play of repudiating her sentiment and pushing solutions as well as more generally the direction of cooperation, hope, etc. is undoubtedly what we should be doing by the very premises we're supposed to be playing by. By those same premises, snapping on her is wrong, and so is letting this go. Delaying it until the next day would achieve nothing except to delay it.
NO! DON'T DO IT! THINK OF YOUR POOR, INNOCENT SOUL! DON'T INFLICT PMKM ON IT!
It... it has to be. Right? @AuraTwilight I need a consult.
If she manages to force us to gem her, we gem her. If we come to a point where she says something like "I recognize your arguments, but I refuse them: this is my path and I will walk it," we gem her. If she agrees to stop being evil we let her go. Until then, we play PMAS the way it's supposed to be played, as the magical girl classic, and that necessitates arguing with words against the sort of sentiment Rionna has displayed before resorting to force.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
While I could see theorically raising the dead through magic in the future... When someone says they want someone dead back... I don't think that's when we tell them they should hope for it really hard.
'Fixing' a situation like this is not usually about denying that someone's dead is permanent, but about learning to live with the fact that people die, everyone, including ourselves, making peace, and moving on.
I don't see this as helping Riona. What Riona needs is to be able to move on; her Wish is already chaining her back to the event of her sister's death, and to everything she felt back then.
Backing down is one thing. I believe we should take control, assert some things, and end the meeting on our terms - while setting up another one, because we're not done.
Or maybe, we won't throw her into the slammer, and instead we'll talk again tomorrow before her plane's scheduled to leave.
Besides Kai, I don't think anyone's really planning to continue Social:
Muramasa said:
I said:
For example, Mura straight up ends the meeting, while I'd take a minute to get Riona to agree to another meeting in which she'll answer our questions, before leaving.
Not exactly a lot of Social. Riona's not in a Sociable mood. I don't think we're exactly wasting a lot of time and effort if we do this before leaving, rather than having the meeting right now.
Also, as for why leave before timestop meeting, I'd rather be away from Riona and her shades before timestop. As a precaution, Homu doesn't have to come in, which I would figure is not completely safe, thanks to the possibility some of Riona's shades might catch her, even in timestop.
The shades are invisible and Riona has said she can use their powers, so they're a dangerous, not vey known element we can't exactly perceive, for now.
Homumom is on overwatch. Being impeded by the Privacy Field, though.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hmm. I've long assumed that resurrection isn't that difficult in PMMM, but are there actually any non-madokami examples of someone being brought back to life? Because if bringing people back is effectively impossible, then Kaizuki's vote will fall a bit flat. I suppose Homura's wish might count...
- Location
- Illinois
... Just to be sure you understand, I was using the Madoka line as an example, not a suggestion for what a good line here would be. That would be an awful line here.
I mean, we have creating new, ensouled life in the form of Hijiri, right? It can't be that hard.
...
The cat. Ami. Madoka's early timeline wish is a resurrection, just not of a human, and her potential was nothing unusual back then.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
You'd think so, but there is a pretty hefty bit of extra thematic resonance when it comes to "True Resurrection". It only takes a male and female human to make new life, but nobody can raise the dead yet...
- Location
- Your Native Universe
The closest thing to True Resurrection that we've seen in Madoka Magica's materials is in The Different Story, where Madoka wishes in a way (exact wording unknown) that brings Sayaka back from the dead. That being said, the resurrected Sayaka has false memories, as she doesn't remember turning into a Witch and believes that the reason she's alive now is because Madoka saved her from a Witch. This calls into question whether the resurrected Sayaka is even the true Sayaka.
Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
While I'm not entirely sure Kaizuki's vote will succeed the social, I think it's the best chance for a peaceful resolution we're going to get. However, the above line is my biggest problem with it.
It treats Rionna like she can't hurt us. So far, we've seen her fail to mind-whammy us, so I hesitate to say that we can just... do what Kazuki suggested above. Brush her off.
Most likely result, Rionna tries to leave halfway through, and we have to restrain her. She takes this as an attack, and goes into full-blown fight mode, using her shades and trying to shade us/Mami, and I'm not so sure we can just brush that off.
I'd suggest something along the lines of
[ ] If she tries to leave, explain that you're not done yet. You'd appreciate if she doesn't make you hurt her.
[ ] If she tries to leave despite that, use more forceful methods.
[ ] If she tries to fight back, cut to voting.
Cutting to voting so that we can vote for if we want to gem her, call for timestop, or let her go.
Wait, this seems to ring a bell...
And yet we agree she hasn't crossed the point of "must be gemmed" yet.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Mm. We know that Madoka can bring Sayaka back, both because of TDS and because of that Kyuubey tells her in PMMM. But Madoka's a bit of an outlier.
And Magia Record isn't that encouraging, either - the one girl who flat out wished to resurrect people there... ended up totally gyped, and her wish wiped her own memories instead.
And Magia Record isn't that encouraging, either - the one girl who flat out wished to resurrect people there... ended up totally gyped, and her wish wiped her own memories instead.
- Location
- Illinois
... That's more thematically accurate than I've got, probably. I don't want to cut to voting, but...
As long as she's in the sphere, we're told she can't communicate with her shades.
The important bit is actually the "I recognize your arguments" part. She hasn't said anything of that sort yet. I'm looking for the kind of line that indicates a villain deciding that although the hero's arguments have validity, they can't work with them. All Rionna has done has been to brush off whatever we've said, rather than admitting any sort of validity.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
OK.
We already brought Riona to the snapping point.
There's some things that need to be said, like "don't hurt anyone" and "we're not done", and if you want, you can throw in
But the arguing needs to stop. Forcefully, there can be no more arguing because we have a person who is not going to argue further.
Let heads cool down. Continue at a later point in time. We got time.
'Magical Girl Classic' can be a guiding line, but it's not a justification. Firn said to be kind, empathetic, too.
Throwing arguments at Riona right now, will most likely prompt a fight. We know this. If we try to keep arguing, we are knowingly provoking a fight. This is not right.
You said it's bad that it puts our friends in danger. I'd add that it puts us and Riona in danger, too. If we end up needing to take down Riona, it shouldn't be by provoking a fight, but by taking her down quickly and decisively with as little harm as possible, something we can do better by timestop and antimagic gank than by fighting her alone in this bubble, or with Mami in this hotel room.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
I appreciate you mentioning this alternate interpretation, because however relevant it does or does not turn out to be, that's exactly the sort of particular phrasing that I like keeping track of. Much thank!
Too late for that, I've already inflicted PMKM on my poor tablet's manga reader. I should probably at least give it a go. For PMAS! And for all other fic that I want to have full context for!
... though admittedly it will probably be some time outta my life I'll never get back. Oh well. Alas.
I think that'd be best and most healthy, yeah, and certainly not telling her "no this is toast a thing we've got in the pipeline, c'mon, help us out here, we'll get it if it takes another hundred years" or anything like that, but like. If this idea has been what's holding Riona upright (and we're still not wholly sure it is, mind you, it could be what she wants but she could have something else in the works), we gotta takes steps at a time to address that, I think. She may not be willing to hear us talk through the acceptance that everything dies and everything ends, even her or us or our family and friends, but she would be likely to listen to "look, if that's really what you're after, don't assume we can't help you, we got people we know have steps toward resurrection in their tech tree" as a step toward maybe not telling us to fuck off as far.
If anything, it might turn the story with her towards more of a traditional one about dealing with life and death and grief healthily, and learning to let go- in her own time.
That's if we can negotiate her to working with us and not goin' around continuing to Do Terrible Things, of course. Which, well. Tricky, as we all see.
We could bring it into our argument if we want to, is all. If this is what Riona's looking for right now... It's a direction we could extend things. Or not.
- Location
- Your Native Universe
The information about her wish is false. Felicia's wish was for Kyubey to make it so what happened (Felicia starting a fire that killed her parents) never happened. That being said, Kyubey states that Felicia made her wish in a very confused state. Whether he means the words used or what she actually wanted in her panicked state is unknown, although both can be true. As a result, it completely messed up the implementation of the wish. It restored her burnt condo, altered the neighbors' memories to think that her parents were missing, and caused Felicia's memories to be altered to believe that a Witch killed her parents.
Edit: Keep in mind that Felicia's wish explicitly gave all responsibility of the wish to Kyubey, and considering that Kyubey outright can't resurrect the dead on his own, he might have only did what he could involving repairing the damage and memory revision.
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