Thoughts!

She raises a hand and twists it, and you feel the magic surging, but- nothing. Rionna's scowl deepens. Outside your interdiction bubble, Mami stiffens ever so slightly, alert and tense.

"Now," Rionna says. Power, magic infuses her voice, infusing it with odd harmonics that sing and push against you, against your Soul. "Let me go."

And the magic-

Simply slides right off you, rainwater sleeting off an umbrella.

Rionna glares at you, expression tight and... annoyed. Not angry. Not scared. Annoyance.

... Rionna, did your name change spellings again while I wasn't looking?

Also, the first thing that comes to mind reading over this section is Heterodyning at someone spark-wise.

The description of what happens to the magic she's trying to throw at us implies some kind of imperviousness or incompatibility- Rionna's 'annoyance' seems to imply that this is either not unheard of, or she's given up being surprised by our bullshit. Not enough information to tell which. If our immunity isn't unheard of, I'd be interested in knowing about previous cases.

Also notable:

And that said - no, she didn't try to turn you into a Shade. That would have been, uh. More noticeable.

She wasn't trying to shade us. She can't access her shades or their powers from inside our Sphere.

That means the mind trick she was trying to pull on us is her magic, some of her intrinsic magic.
She failed even setting off her first attempt at a thing, which may have been something related to her shades that our Sphere blocked, but the second thing started to work, was an effect we could feel. It just didn't work on us.

She's got some unknown brainjacker-y power, is what I'm saying. Power or constraints are unknown, though it appears to be either not instantaneous, or she knew well enough to try and gather up all her strength to throw at us particularly. Still didn't work, but even if we assume she's limited to short, focused commands, she officially cannot go anywhere near Homura at minimum, and preferably anyone else, for any length of time that would give her time to gather up her power in this regard. If it's not limited to short commands, that makes it worse. Until we know she can't just command people, this is a Big Issue and can we call in our anti-brainjacking-measures? Didn't, uh, Umika, of Asunaro, have something like that with her book, or whatever, which we used because of Hijiri and Anri?

I appreciate that the #milesgloriousus player chat was actually on the dot about screeching about brainjackers and shit. Just, it's not us who's a brainjacker, it's Rionna, and vetting by Nadia don't prove nothing. Clearly we keep shitpost speculating in the IRC as though we're random ass meguca hearing about this shit- we might unintentionally hit on all sorts of secrets ahead of time!

The fact that she's only used that power to try and shoulder her way out of the Sphere does give her some points. Some. Not that that's a high bar at this point. I'm concerned a bit about Nadia being compromised now. And if Rionna tries to push things using brainjack, then- Then we'll have to deal with that too, I guess.

(Food for thought: if we reallly are Madokami's extension of her "fix everything" wish... do we really need to revive Riona's sister to fix the scenario?)

I highly doubt that rezzing Riona's sister is a required component to fix things, the process of grieving and mourning and whatnot being a thing that we could eventually push for. That's fixing too, in its way. We need a foot in the door, though, and our intel about resurrection attempts may be part of it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and in the end, didn't Homura's wish effectively resurrect Madoka (and a ton of other people as a side effect)?

I'm not sure that Homura's wish (whether we take the time-travel-only, or the slider-only, or the complicated-time-slide-mess, interpretations of her powers) is the thing to be using to analyze resurrections with. The mechanical processes involved in either sliding or timecycling seem like they'd be wholly different than those involved in enacting a small local change of entropy and soul retrieval for a single organism.

Mami's parents were already dead when she contracted and one of her main impetuses for witching out is Kyubey dropping that she could have revived them and saved all three of them trivially.

Wait when was this? Supplementary material? I've never seen this one cited before- where from? That's a big thing evidence-wise that would be good to be able to point to, can I have a link for saving?

Kazumi (crazy when having her original's memories)

Wasn't that not a wish resurrection, though? I'm not sure about the others or their contexts, but Kazumi specifically was a Science! resurrection, wasn't it?
 
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This is your personal interpretation - don't consider it as something that all players supposedly know. My own view remains the same: That we have no real reason to think 'true resurrection' impossible. The examples you give count as no more than some small pieces of evidence, not proof.

It also feels to me that you're using the adjective 'real' to trivialize somewhat the successes to the extent the successes did exist. Riona would very likely be quite happy to have her sister back even if she had a few imperfect memories here and there, Sayaka-style.
 
She's got some unknown brainjacker-y power, is what I'm saying. Power or constraints are unknown, though it appears to be either not instantaneous, or she knew well enough to try and gather up all her strength to throw at us particularly. Still didn't work, but even if we assume she's limited to short, focused commands, she officially cannot go anywhere near Homura at minimum, and preferably anyone else, for any length of time that would give her time to gather up her power in this regard. If it's not limited to short commands, that makes it worse. Until we know she can't just command people, this is a Big Issue and can we call in our anti-brainjacking-measures? Didn't, uh, Umika, of Asunaro, have something like that with her book, or whatever, which we used because of Hijiri and Anri?
Hilarious if it turns out what kept us from being Suggest'd was that Umika's spell still lingers. :V
 
Hilarious if it turns out what kept us from being Suggest'd was that Umika's spell still lingers. :V

Yyyyyyup, that was my somewhat concerning thought after I posted that idea. We miiiiiight should check on that. As soon as possible. Like, as soon as possible when we leave this space and pick up the others to converse about this shit going down and all.
 
No, we don't know this.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and in the end, didn't Homura's wish effectively resurrect Madoka (and a ton of other people as a side effect)?
Thanks for pointing it out, I reworded that sentence.

My core point stands, however. We don't know if True Resurrection is possible, we can't in good faith go promising it.

in the end, didn't Homura's wish effectively resurrect Madoka (and a ton of other people as a side effect)?
No. Homura just moved to another timeline.

Re: True Resurrection wishes, putting aside Amy literally happened in the first timeline, Mami's parents were already dead when she contracted and one of her main impetuses for witching out is Kyubey dropping that she could have revived them and saved all three of them trivially.

So, True Resurrection via wishes isn't fucking difficult or impressive, apparently.
Amy could have revived as different as any other kitty (mentally speaking) and neither Madoka or the audience would have known better.

Mami's parents: :Citation Needed: what's Kyubey's wording exactly? Because the line between implying and saying when talking about Kyubey is very important.
 
[x] Kaizuki

Re: True Resurrection wishes, putting aside Amy literally happened in the first timeline, Mami's parents were already dead when she contracted and one of her main impetuses for witching out is Kyubey dropping that she could have revived them and saved all three of them trivially.

So, True Resurrection via wishes isn't fucking difficult or impressive, apparently.

Aura trivially answers open PMMM question, news at 11

But, yeah, can we get a cite on that? Less for me than to convince everyone else
 
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BTW, if we want Mami to contact Homura for a time stop while Sabrina is still inside the privacy sphere, maybe spell out our message in grief writing on the floor, on a spot out of Rionna's line-of-sight (maybe covered by Sabrina or the bed)? The floor seems a good choice since Mami won't have to shift her head too much to see it, and should give her a few seconds to parse it and call for Homura, before Rionna see's what's up.
 
Other thoughts!

"Would you really keep Souls trapped if it became unnecessary?" you ask, raising your eyebrows. Are you that kind of person? "By your own judgement, not because I tell you that it's unnecessary?"

"Won't happen," Rionna says, and shrugs. "Can't happen. You can't make it happen."

That wasn't a no.

She's shouting everything and everything's cousin at us by the end there, and the thing she's avoiding answering is avoiding giving us a hard line about keeping Souls just 'cause reasons and yet also, in doing so, avoiding conceding weakness by saying that no, she wouldn't keep Souls unnecessarily trapped.

She just says what she's been saying this whole time ever since she got a chance to talk a bit with us- that we can't help her.

I'm still stuck on what it was that required her to talk with us for a short time- but very specifically only a short time- before making that assessment of our ability to help.

But like. She's talkin' like it's an inevitability that we both need to deal with. She's not answering what she'd want to be able to do, if things were different.

Now that could be because the answer's not one we'd like, but it could also be because it's something she hasn't been thinking about- hasn't been able to afford to think about- or just something she doesn't see any point in thinkin' about, since so far as she is willing to accept, things aren't different right now, and there's no point saying she'd rather do this or do that, if she sees only one path forward.

My reading of Riona's character is leaning toward the "there's no point thinking about it" as opposed to the "I'm being evasive about being awful" interpretation, but either way, just something to keep in mind.

We're pulling together enough ideas that, if she hasn't already got an answer- for herself if not for us- about what she'd do if she did see herself having the choice, that she'll need to ask herself for that answer soon.
 
Is this canon? Was it confirmed in Wraith Arc or something? @AuraTwilight ?
Edit: actually, is it canon to the quest @Firnagzen ?
I believe that Firn did confirm it canon at one point.
Other thoughts!



That wasn't a no.

She's shouting everything and everything's cousin at us by the end there, and the thing she's avoiding answering is avoiding giving us a hard line about keeping Souls just 'cause reasons and yet also, in doing so, avoiding conceding weakness by saying that no, she wouldn't keep Souls unnecessarily trapped.

She just says what she's been saying this whole time ever since she got a chance to talk a bit with us- that we can't help her.

I'm still stuck on what it was that required her to talk with us for a short time- but very specifically only a short time- before making that assessment of our ability to help.

But like. She's talkin' like it's an inevitability that we both need to deal with. She's not answering what she'd want to be able to do, if things were different.

Now that could be because the answer's not one we'd like, but it could also be because it's something she hasn't been thinking about- hasn't been able to afford to think about- or just something she doesn't see any point in thinkin' about, since so far as she is willing to accept, things aren't different right now, and there's no point saying she'd rather do this or do that, if she sees only one path forward.

My reading of Riona's character is leaning toward the "there's no point thinking about it" as opposed to the "I'm being evasive about being awful" interpretation, but either way, just something to keep in mind.

We're pulling together enough ideas that, if she hasn't already got an answer- for herself if not for us- about what she'd do if she did see herself having the choice, that she'll need to ask herself for that answer soon.
She's afraid to hope.
 
That's a pretty big difference dudes. Even vanilla show Homura never processed that she was sliding. The idea that her true madoka is dead, a hundred timeline's behind her, is pretty massive.

People often overuse words like 'true' and 'real', in ways that have no measurable meaning. I don't know if the authors of Madoka (or the author of this quest) treats such a distinction as clear-cut -- but unless it's confirmed otherwise I feel there's no clear-cut distinction between 'true' and 'non-true' Madokas or a real and a non-real resurrection. Things/Situations/Instances of people are just closer or further apart from each other.

EDIT: And even if such a clear-cut distinction does exist, and even if 'true resurrection' is impossible, nobody can be sure that Riona would share the same ideas about such, and wouldn't be satisfied with something 'lesser'.
 
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People often overuse words like 'true' and 'real', in ways that have no measurable meaning. I don't know if the authors of Madoka (or the author of this quest) treats such a distinction as clear-cut -- but unless it's confirmed otherwise I feel there's no clear-cut distinction between 'true' and 'non-true' Madokas or a real and a non-real resurrection. Things/Situations/Instances of people are just closer or further apart from each other.
That's your opinion. Homura could disagree.
 
One thing is for damn sure, and that's that she's far too cutled in on her own regret and hatred right now to really accept anything we say

At the very least we need to have a break in the conversation. Continuing to push is just going to make her dig in harder
 
Well, it's indeed certainly your opinion that Homura would disagree. :)

No, it's rather factual. There's a difference between the two, which *very obviously* would be *highly* meaningful to Homura, and I'm going to ask you to stop misrepresenting that as an "opinion."

To be clear, the implication of sliders is that Homura is already "responsible" (her words) for the witching or death of somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred Madokas.

She would kill herself over it, now or later.
 
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People often overuse words like 'true' and 'real', in ways that have no measurable meaning. I don't know if the authors of Madoka (or the author of this quest) treats such a distinction as clear-cut -- but unless it's confirmed otherwise I feel there's no clear-cut distinction between 'true' and 'non-true' Madokas or a real and a non-real resurrection. Things/Situations/Instances of people are just closer or further apart from each other.

EDIT: And even if such a clear-cut distinction does exist, and even if 'true resurrection' is impossible, nobody can be sure that Riona would share the same ideas about such, and wouldn't be satisfied with something 'lesser'.
That's fair.

However my belief is that a perfect copy of a person isn't the same person. With the confirmation that timelines exist beyond the point that Homura leaves them, their are a lot of mental paths that Homura probably doesn't want to travel down. I certainly wouldn't
 
Is this canon? Was it confirmed in Wraith Arc or something? @AuraTwilight ?
Edit: actually, is it canon to the quest @Firnagzen ?

It's been confirmed canon to PMMM proper in a ton of different places at this point - it comes up as a background detail in the original PMMM, is spelled out explicitly in Wraith Arc and in the Rebellion manga, is a major plot point in Homura's Revenge, and comes up yet again in MagiReco. There really isn't any room to debate it at this point.

Further, Firnagzen's confirmed that he's using the time travel mechanics as described in Homura's Revenge, even if the actual events of that sidestory didn't take place in PMAS's past, so sliding is confirmed PMAS canon.

This is, needless to say, not a topic conducive to Homura's mental wellbeing, and so it's not particularly likely to directly come up in PMAS unless QB or such drops it on Homu to make her despair. It does cut off some methods we could otherwise use to reassure Homura, though, if only because building up Homu's mental wellbeing on false premises is just asking for shit to go wrong.
 
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No, it's rather factual. There's a difference between the two, which *very obviously* would be *highly* meaningful to Homura, and I'm going to ask you to stop misrepresenting that as an "opinion."

Too bad. If the supplementary material other people have mentioned indeed indicate it to be that way, I feel it cheapens the original story then, because Homura very clearly wished to protect the Madoka she knew, not just some random other girl that just happened to share the same name.

So the way I felt the original anime's wish mechanics worked, it should have been the same Madoka according to *Homura's* opinion, even if it's not the same Madoka according to Kaizuki's opinion.

If the intent of the wish is not respected, this kinda weakens the original anime for me.

EDIT: Ugh, and if Homura is returning in time to save some *different* Madoka that she can't actually save, why is the *new Madoka's* karmic weight strengthened by this? Ugh. The more I think of it, the less I like it. Again, too bad if it's canon, I wish it wasn't.
 
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The way the show dealt with it was that Madokami had the memories of all the Madokas.


I feel sliders does reduce my like of pmmm slightly, yes. But it's Canon, and it's not going away.
 
She's afraid to hope.

I wouldn't necessarily decide to go that far- at the very least she may find it unproductive to consider the existence of more moral options, when her available evidence doesn't support their tenability. Whether that's a judgement that might be justified depends on rather much on how Riona knows she'd react, emotionally, to allowing herself to consider those more moral options without a firm guarantee that she could both continue pursuing her mysterious goals, and a guarantee that she wouldn't be placed in a position of vulnerability by doing so.

Couldn't realistically expect her to think thinkin' about it is a good plan if she knows divin' too far into the morality of it would kill her.

Far as she sees it, might could be that she needs people to add to her Science! Apparatus in Edinburgh workin' on Something Mysterious, and that's just how it is, and since we can't be co-opted into the Science! Apparatus, and we don't have The Mysterious Something on hand, then she just has to keep slogging through her work, and punch us in the face (with magic) if she has to, in order to go back to what she's been doing. Which might well be awful, but if that's just how it is, then she can't afford to think about 'what if it were different', because it wouldn't help and might well hurt.

I wouldn't so much call that 'afraid' as 'irritatingly determined and practical'.

Unfortunately for her, that runs right up against classical Mad Scientist type plans for dealing with, which is to say, you might be working on something heartrending and important to you and we'd really like to help you out with that, but you can't keep on kidnapping townsfolk for your Science! Apparatus and murderlyzin' them and shit, or experimentin', or using 'em for powers.

Actually, that's quite an applicable analogy. Her shades are basically the quintessential rezzed zombie minions (sensate or insensate nature still up for grabs) of the people she's gone after, she's said she's been trying to keep it to acceptable targets, but sometimes an adventurer or civilian can sorta slip in there too, and we really gotta stop her from doing that anymore, and preferably release said undead minions to be merciful-like. 'Specially if they are actually suffering. Because the zombie minions of real actual people that got murderlyzed it just all kinds of unpleasant and not alright, especially if their souls can't go on to their eternal rest.

(If these were just copies, like Sayaka's copies of powers, this would be so much less trouble, argh. But, well, here we are. Maybe we can find a way for Sayaka to copy their powers and make Riona a rolodex of them so she stops this shit, at least, in some hypothetical future where we come to trust her any further than we could throw her without magical powers?)

Meanwhile, if we do wanna help her with her Something Mysterious, we can't exactly let her keep feeding people to Edinburgh's Science! Apparatus, so we either gotta come up with a better way to go about what she's doing- something she'll accept as a solution- or we gotta find a humane way to operate said Science! Apparatus and bring her into the fold with our Science! Program (feat. Sabrina and Niko), or we gotta go all in for the regretfully starting a fight with someone that thinks she's doing the best she can, but she's wrong, terribly wrong, especially now, and this plot arc is gonna be a downer and come back about four arcs from now as Having To Deal With What We Unfortunately Had To Solve With Violence Last Time But We Legitimately Ran Short On Options, and all that. (And in some cases not so regretfully because Riona, seriously, what the hell.)

... viewing this whole thing through a genre shift is a very interesting exercise.

... I'm not sure how useful any of that is to this discussion, but those are I guess my thoughts on Rionna's potential thoughts?
 
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