Dragon Ball: After the End

chryssalideater · Aug 30, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
Honestly, I'm not clear on how we weren't fucked as it was. I mean, Carrack knew so much about the plot that if he'd just told Dandeer in advance about it, she could have countered it pretty easily. Dandeer did NOT behave the way I'd have expected her to behave if she knew we were coming.

Easiest and simplest solution: She didn't ask. If mind-controlled carrack doesn't have much initiative, he simply might not have mentioned the conspiracy and dandeer, either out of overconfidence or due to the Jekyll and Hyde routine, didn't ask.

Simon_Jester said:
Hmmmm... think you may be misinterpreting what happened back there. The problem is, if Carrick's been suborned for a long enough period of time that he's been actively misleading us somehow, we do not know JACK about the Sight and cannot interpret what's happening to us. I'm not sure the 'barrage of visions' we've gotten is actually an attack. Is there ANY prior instance of anyone using the Sight to project visions at people as a distraction?

Well, that's certainly what I interpreted it as, because otherwise I don't have a clue what all of that was about.

Simon_Jester said:
I mean... I dunno? I'm not sure what you're pointing towards here.

Yeah I don't know either, that's why I asked.

Simon_Jester said:
There are, in effect, two Dandeers "take turns" controlling her body, with very different personalities. What trigger flips her from one to the other is an open question, though for all I know THAT is what she was "working on" just now- trying to bring out the 'evil sorceror-queen' persona she needs in order to, say, cast attack magic.

That would make a lot of sense. Also, if one of her personalities was more competent than the other, it would explain why our conspiracy wasn't busted.

Gore17 · Aug 30, 2018

chryssalideater said:
Well, that's certainly what I interpreted it as, because otherwise I don't have a clue what all of that was about.

Our ability to have visions was being blocked/restricted, as outright mentioned at the end:

PoptartProdigy said:
This has had the side effect of Kakara becoming aware of (and effortlessly circumventing) a block on her Sight. This, along with other factors, has led both Kakara and Jaffur to conclude that Dandeer has done something to Sensei Carrick at some unknown point.

PoptartProdigy said:
Kakara, meanwhile, has far more facility with the Sight than she ever dreamed. To put this all in perspective: Kakara can now easily make multiple predictions -- how many, she doesn't know -- and then she and Jaffur can use their buffed TF stat to execute whatever she projects.

Basically, the only time Kakara would get visions is if:
a) they were so important/strong that they get through the block or
b) Kakara makes intense, concentrated effort several times more then is required for a vision to break through the block.

I find the whole "Vision is a trap by Carrick" paranoia to be rather silly when her Sight is already being blocked. It's far more likely that the Vision trying to get her attention is important.

KnightDisciple · Aug 30, 2018

[X] At this point you need something exceptional. Visions show you things you'd think were relevant, right? Let it in and see what it has to say, as long as you're already out for the moment and nobody is defending themselves.

chryssalideater · Aug 30, 2018

Gore17 said:
Our ability to have visions was being blocked/restricted, as outright mentioned at the end:

Basically, the only time Kakara would get visions is if:
a) they were so important/strong that they get through the block or
b) Kakara makes intense, concentrated effort several times more then is required for a vision to break through the block.

I find the whole "Vision is a trap by Carrick" paranoia to be rather silly when her Sight is already being blocked. It's far more likely that the Vision trying to get her attention is important.

Well then, that makes a lot more sense. Sorry, I completely misunderstood what was going on there.

Lailoken · Aug 30, 2018

KaintukeeBob said:
Hmmm...

How about we quickly make a disguise and try to convince Yammar that we are Dandeer?

Then we can give him orders!

You joke, but his deceit is so low that I'm really tempted to just mess with him like a tripping druggie.

If nothing else, it's tempting to ask him what really happened to house Talt while he can't lie.

"Oh my kai, you're turning into an orange! We need to peel you!"

HoratioVonBecker · Aug 30, 2018

More questions, @PoptartProdigy:

HoratioVonBecker said:
(I may just reread and do a copyedits-and-oddities check - among other things, it's passing strange that Kakara would tease Maya about the latter saying Kakara is pretty, but still not realize that Maya does indeed have a crush. That tease has been there since the 'superpowers' reveal, and I think you all collectively forgot it was canon.)

HoratioVonBecker said:
Does the Senzu Clan have more than one garden? If it's dangerous to have too many of our Super Saiyans in one place...

Sir LagsAlot said:
And remove the old one I posted which is this one:

[ ] Telepathically shout at Yammar to block all incoming messages or possible Seer precog.
-[ ] IT to Dandeer, and use her as a shield/flail.
-[ ] While Yammar is at a disadvantage, Heal Beam your comrades. Give Jaffur, who Yammar implied only lost due to numbers, priority.

Hey! I'd have voted for that!

Aranfan said:
[x] IT to the other side of the planet
-[x] Go spirit saiyan

I think the far side of the Sun is better. The charging phase seems to increase our telepathic range to solar system scale, and I think we'll be harder to find there.

ExNihilo said:
[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
- [X] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.

The first is just a 'good sense' trick. The second seems inferior to talking, to me - we want his mind focused on the question, not just the answer. At least if we want to actually talk him down, instead of just distracting him.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago. Show him the answer.
-[X] And heal Jaffur/anyone else convenient while he's distracted.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Then IT to the other side of the Sun, and begin charging a Spirit Bomb. Use a multiform if necessary to request the energy.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Then IT to the other side of the Sun, and begin charging a Spirit Bomb. Use a multiform if necessary to request the energy.
-[X] And send a Multiform back to wake up Jaffur.

[X] At this point you need something exceptional. Visions show you things you'd think were relevant, right? Let it in and see what it has to say, as long as you're already out for the moment and nobody is defending themselves.

Please consolidate your votes around the best practices, people. So many of the present ones seem suboptimal for their intended purpose, at least to me.

Sir LagsAlot · Aug 30, 2018

HoratioVonBecker said:
Please consolidate your votes around the best practices, people. So many of the present ones seem suboptimal for their intended purpose, at least to me.

I think the reason are voting to stop at grabbing Dandeer is because the votes are so divided on what to do after that.

chryssalideater · Aug 30, 2018

HoratioVonBecker said:
More questions, @PoptartProdigy:

Hey! I'd have voted for that!

I think the far side of the Sun is better. The charging phase seems to increase our telepathic range to solar system scale, and I think we'll be harder to find there.

The first is just a 'good sense' trick. The second seems inferior to talking, to me - we want his mind focused on the question, not just the answer. At least if we want to actually talk him down, instead of just distracting him.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago. Show him the answer.
-[X] And heal Jaffur/anyone else convenient while he's distracted.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Then IT to the other side of the Sun, and begin charging a Spirit Bomb. Use a multiform if necessary to request the energy.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Then IT to the other side of the Sun, and begin charging a Spirit Bomb. Use a multiform if necessary to request the energy.
-[X] And send a Multiform back to wake up Jaffur.

[X] At this point you need something exceptional. Visions show you things you'd think were relevant, right? Let it in and see what it has to say, as long as you're already out for the moment and nobody is defending themselves.

Please consolidate your votes around the best practices, people. So many of the present ones seem suboptimal for their intended purpose, at least to me.

Not a big fan of not using the flail. Shield doesn't seem like it will be aggressive enough to free up space for actions.

PoptartProdigy · Aug 30, 2018

HoratioVonBecker said:
More questions, @PoptartProdigy:

Kakara teased her friend about thinking Kakara was pretty; that doesn't mean Kakara seriously credited the idea at the time.

The Senzus have more than one garden, but they all surround their Hall.

HoratioVonBecker · Aug 30, 2018

Sir LagsAlot said:
I think the reason are voting to stop at grabbing Dandeer is because the votes are so divided on what to do after that.

Right, but the 'where to teleport to' one could be optimized, and the 'hide bean in cheek' looks like it'd be good for every single plan.

PoptartProdigy said:
Kakara teased her friend about thinking Kakara was pretty; that doesn't mean Kakara seriously credited the idea at the time.

It's still pretty odd that she never considered the possibility after that.

PoptartProdigy said:
The Senzus have more than one garden, but they all surround their Hall.

Ooohkay. That's something to fix. We really need something that could survive the planet blowing up, and not just because of Sorceror support.
By the way, I want to know if this is a typo or not:

PoptartProdigy said:
(She made sense, briefly, cast in the light of a newly-ascended Super Saiyan. But he forgot, the following day.)

(He remembered it forever.)

PoptartProdigy · Aug 30, 2018

HoratioVonBecker said:
It's still pretty odd that she never considered the possibility after that.

She never took it seriously to begin with. She goes over some of the reasons it was completely beyond consideration when Sophie finally smacks her in the face with the truth.

HoratioVonBecker said:
By the way, I want to know if this is a typo or not:

Very deliberate. When I get into stream-of-consciousness of that flavor, you can expect to see the narration contradict itself a lot. Especially when Jaffur is involved.

Sir LagsAlot · Aug 30, 2018

HoratioVonBecker said:
Right, but the 'where to teleport to' one could be optimized, and the 'hide bean in cheek' looks like it'd be good for every single plan.

I won't dispute either of those.

VicSage · Aug 31, 2018

[X] Plan Screaming Saiyans
-[X] Take another bean, get back up, and fight.
--[X] Keep your distance and fight defensively. Your goal isn't to knock out Yammar, but to prevent him from doing the same to you as well as healing his allies.
-[X] Broadcast to every single Saiyan on Garenhuld that you're trying to break the Sealing, Dandeer is mind-controlling Yammar and Berra and that they need to scream at Yammar right now.

Using Dandeer as a saiyan shield and ragdoll is incredibly appealing, but we're dealing with Yammar here. He may be trying to protect her, but so long as he thinks he could get her healed, he might be willing to shoot through her.

Gore17 · Aug 31, 2018

VicSage said:
[X] Plan Screaming Saiyans
-[X] Take another bean, get back up, and fight.
--[X] Keep your distance and fight defensively. Your goal isn't to knock out Yammar, but to prevent him from doing the same to you as well as healing his allies.
-[X] Broadcast to every single Saiyan on Garenhuld that you're trying to break the Sealing, Dandeer is mind-controlling Yammar and Berra and that they need to scream at Yammar right now.

Using Dandeer as a saiyan shield and ragdoll is incredibly appealing, but we're dealing with Yammar here. He may be trying to protect her, but so long as he thinks he could get her healed, he might be willing to shoot through her.

Poptart said no to the telepathy part:

PoptartProdigy said:
...hm. I actually think I flipped the way the Hall wards work in my head, over the last updates. Kakara should not be able to telepathy out through the wards. It's fine, I can retcon her contacting the Senzus to her passing it to the last people leaving and having them pass it along, but in terms of your question: zero.

VicSage · Aug 31, 2018

Then why is that part still in the Vote's Open post?

Gore17 · Aug 31, 2018

VicSage said:
Then why is that part still in the Vote's Open post?

Simple:

PoptartProdigy said:
Here are the featured write-ins, presented here as they were presented to me, with no alterations.

Poptart is evil. *points to their title*

nkd1325 · Aug 31, 2018

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
- [X] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.
- [X] IT over to Dandeer and use her as a shield/flail.

Bommelom · Aug 31, 2018

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[X] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[X] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago.

[X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
- [X] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.
- [X] IT over to Dandeer and use her as a shield/flail.

[X]Eat a senzu bean, then IT to Dandeer and grab her as a saiyan shield again.

I don't really like the idea of trying to transmit memories of Dandeer's slaughter, given that it gives Yammar an excellent opportunity to knock us out, but I don't want to give up and hope on a vision bailing us out either.

Gore17 · Aug 31, 2018

Bommelom said:
but I don't want to give up and hope on a vision bailing us out either.

I don't see how it's giving up?

And considering the Sight is one of our characters advantages, and how many times it's proved useful...

Simon_Jester · Aug 31, 2018

HoratioVonBecker said:
More questions, @PoptartProdigy:

Hey! I'd have voted for that!

I think the far side of the Sun is better. The charging phase seems to increase our telepathic range to solar system scale, and I think we'll be harder to find there.

The first is just a 'good sense' trick. The second seems inferior to talking, to me - we want his mind focused on the question, not just the answer. At least if we want to actually talk him down, instead of just distracting him.

[] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago.

[] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[] Ask Yammar why there are Over Nine Thousand fewer Vegetan Sorcerors than there were twelve years ago. Show him the answer.
-[] And heal Jaffur/anyone else convenient while he's distracted.

[] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[] Then IT to the other side of the Sun, and begin charging a Spirit Bomb. Use a multiform if necessary to request the energy.

[] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
-[] IT over to Dandeer, and use her as a shield.
-[] Then IT to the other side of the Sun, and begin charging a Spirit Bomb. Use a multiform if necessary to request the energy.
-[] And send a Multiform back to wake up Jaffur.

[] At this point you need something exceptional. Visions show you things you'd think were relevant, right? Let it in and see what it has to say, as long as you're already out for the moment and nobody is defending themselves.

Please consolidate your votes around the best practices, people. So many of the present ones seem suboptimal for their intended purpose, at least to me.

How about we ALSO consolidate around the version that just says "teleport to Dandeer and grab her, THEN decide what to do next?"

I mean, we're never going to get majority consensus on which of several possible strategies we should pursue, without separately discussing that. And any of the plans we devise. Let's ALSO consolidate around the "Keep It Simple Stupid" votes:

[] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
- [] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.
- [] IT over to Dandeer and use her as a shield/flail.

[]Eat a senzu bean, then IT to Dandeer and grab her as a saiyan shield again.

Simon_Jester · Aug 31, 2018

chryssalideater said:
Not a big fan of not using the flail. Shield doesn't seem like it will be aggressive enough to free up space for actions.

If we can physically keep away from Yammar, all he can do is blast us from range. If any such blast is likely to hit Dandeer, he'll at least have to think about what to do next and give us time to do something.

HoratioVonBecker said:
Right, but the 'where to teleport to' one could be optimized, and the 'hide bean in cheek' looks like it'd be good for every single plan.

I don't WANT to optimize our decision about what we do AFTER we grab Dandeer. I want us to succeed in grabbing Dandeer, then have a separate discussion about what to do next.

Ideally, I'd like the next post to look like "[snip stuff] You IT over to Dandeer, grab her, and- VOTE ON NEXT ACTION"

Bommelom · Aug 31, 2018

Gore17 said:
I don't see how it's giving up?

And considering the Sight is one of our characters advantages, and how many times it's proved useful...

Okay, I agree that it's not giving up, but..

It's giving Yammar free rein to act as he wants. He could heal either Vegeta or Dandeer, or shoot us again to make absolutely sure we're not getting back up.

@PoptartProdigy, did Yammar and Apra get Senzu beans as well?

chryssalideater · Aug 31, 2018

I suppose if we TP away at some point, we could always take the vision with a degree of safety then.

Deathbybunnies · Aug 31, 2018

[X]Eat a senzu bean, then IT to Dandeer and grab her as a saiyan shield again.

I think we can comfortably do this without using the memory, at which point we can use it to get a bean to someone.

Simon_Jester · Aug 31, 2018

Deathbybunnies said:
[]Eat a senzu bean, then IT to Dandeer and grab her as a saiyan shield again.

I think we can comfortably do this without using the memory, at which point we can use it to get a bean to someone.

Or a beam.

I think the heal-beam is a smarter plan than the senzu bean. Among other things because all things considered I'd rather have Jaffur on our side than Apra, and we KNOW getting him to take a senzu bean when he's out cold is a princely pain in the ass.

Dragon Ball: After the End

Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.

Imperfectly Aligned

Yandere Dice Magnet

Lawful Evil

Imperfectly Aligned

Lawful Evil

Yandere Dice Magnet

Not Crazy

Not Crazy

KNIGHT OF ORANGE