[ ] Tax Reform
-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
[ ] Tax Reform
HanEmpire
Delicious
Not nearly as much. They keep ownership and continue to draw income. There's a world of difference between that property seizure. But yeah it would hit their pride.
Last edited:
- Location
- Near Water
[X] Stewardship
- Location
- UK
[X] Stewardship
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Stewardship
The other systems would have to be burnt down a couple centuries from now. The paternalism is gonna be a huge problem we can't just reform away, but... eh, it's interesting to me.
Stewardship is also a very powerful covert tool.
The other systems would have to be burnt down a couple centuries from now. The paternalism is gonna be a huge problem we can't just reform away, but... eh, it's interesting to me.
Stewardship is also a very powerful covert tool.
Last edited:
- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] Stewardship
Admittedly, what we are saying is "the Ymaryn know best, bankrupt outsiders will be shown the Correct Ways under our firm guiding hand, for their own good of course," which makes a great deal of difference.
You can be paternalistic without being isolationist.
Corruption by whom, in what way?
We are only taking over when they fail to uphold their contractual obligations. This isn't saying Ymaryn know best - it is saying that when people won't take care of their shit, then we will go in and show them how to take care of it RIGHT.
Last edited:
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Corruption by whichever clerks, advisors and overseers the bank sends to bankrupt customers to guide their finances. They could easily divert the income in order to enrich themselves or their friends, caring not about their economic wards and willing to lie to their employers in an easily obfuscatable way.
Example: Say you are an indebted Gylruvian noble falling on hard times. After defaulting, the Ymaryn Crown Bank chooses a representative, hailing from Valleyhome of course, to manage your finances. The foreigner then uses your income in ways that are not the most efficient to get you out of debt. Instead he buys supplies from people bribing him and then claims that they were the best option. And if you disagree, well "the noble simply doesn't understand what's best for him, else he wouldn't be in this situation in the first place".
This sort of corruption wouldn't be an issue at all with Absolutism (since the bank as a whole now owns the land and will want maximum benefit for its shareholders (mostly the Ymaryn king I assume)) and only to a small extend with Humanism (land may be given back or given to peasants based on connections with bank managers instead of justice or common interest).
Last edited:
[X] Stewardship
Hmm. I would imagine that this sort of corruption would be relatively easy to spot if done that blatantly. Certainly, I expect that someone can audit the account (certain, the noble in question can), and someone just looting the estate would be pretty apparent. I suppose we still have to watch out for people getting kickbacks from their preferred produces of e.g. farm equipment - though I'd counter that if it was done excessively then the advisers in question would end up with a bad track record in the bank and trigger an investigation that way. Still, I agree that it is a potential problem.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
@PrimalShadow I edited in an example into my reply to you.
Also you overestimate the oversight possible given a landmass as big as Gylruv and Ymar combined and the lack of even a telegraph system. Corruption is rampant no matter what, but this directly gives it a new avenue and makes nobles (the current class with the most power and on who's legitimacy our government rests) its primary victims. Dangerous.
Also you overestimate the oversight possible given a landmass as big as Gylruv and Ymar combined and the lack of even a telegraph system. Corruption is rampant no matter what, but this directly gives it a new avenue and makes nobles (the current class with the most power and on who's legitimacy our government rests) its primary victims. Dangerous.
HanEmpire
Delicious
But is that worse than the absolutist option?
The Absolutist path will concentrate land, wealth, and power in a small number of high nobles who are so powerful that they'll be practically immune to the consequences of failure. If it goes far enough they'll become entrenched oligarchs able to challenge the central government.
Small scale abuse by our bank bureaucrats is a possibility yes, but the primary victims will be small backward nobles who are already financially insolvent. They won't be able to effectively challenge our authority like the high nobles.
Yes, that is the kickbacks point I mentioned. It is indeed something to worry about.
I disagree that it wouldn't be a problem with Absolutism, however. If under Stewardship representatives of the bank can go against the bank's interest by buying stuff from a suboptimal supplier and getting kickbacks, then there is no reason they can't similarly go against the bank's interest in Absolutism. The difference is that they would be stealing from the bank directly instead of merely the bank's clients, which means that the bank would be more interested in control measures, but the same problems would still be possible.
- Location
- Illinois
Honestly, this feels like the Tax Reform vote all over again.
Like, stewardship seems to have a lot of failure points, and requires a ton of complicated oversight of lands throughout multiple nations, with differing understandings of what it takes to make lands 'profitable'.
Are we actually sure we have the know how to pull this off?
Like, stewardship seems to have a lot of failure points, and requires a ton of complicated oversight of lands throughout multiple nations, with differing understandings of what it takes to make lands 'profitable'.
Are we actually sure we have the know how to pull this off?
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
As I have said repeatedly, it is not this specific course of action I'm objecting to. The problem is the attitude it will engender among our rulership, and the ascendancy of the associated philosophy. The fact that we do know best in this particular instance is a mark against, rather than for, the approach in my book - if we just fucked it up that'd be one thing, but this'll set a dangerous & positive precedent for "foreigners fuck up, Ymaryn step in to fix it by making them do things the smart way." I am aware that this one action won't irrevocably set us back on the path to smug superiority, but it seems like a needlessly risky step along that path. Especially given the stated attitudes of some voters that "impractical paternalistic systems are Ymaryn tradition" - which they are, but that tradition is a bad one that I don't want to return to.
Accurate, but I was just using it for shorthand. I don't find interventionist policies like the Trelli War to be preferable, and those seem like the main possible outcomes - either we ignore how much the outside world is fucking up, or we step in to correct them even when they'd really rather we didn't. Again: I know this one choice won't immediately send us down that road, but it's a step along the way, and with vote weighting the first step is in many respects the most important.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
[X] Humanism
[X] Stewardship