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AN: A character piece, because for a chosen of Sigmar, doesn't the question of "what if Abelheim lived?" bring about more questions? Hopefully I didn't get Kasmir too far wrong.
A most excellent and true Omake, just one thing.
In 2283 he first heard a dawi merchant (a rare sight still) Azrildrekked. For she had completed the reconquest of Karak Eight Peaks.
I think you had intended to put a "say" or "called her" in there somewhere.

Edit: Doublepost.


You know, with this omake reminding me of just how hard Mathilde took Abel's death, I have to wonder: how much of the trust the Grey College has in Mathilde comes from her reaction to that situation? She lost someone she quite blatantly massively cared about and was grief stricken to the point she was threatening trusted allies with her gun, every other magic user on the campaign was either dead or AWOL, the major god of the Empire had apparently abandoned her, and she was in a place that whispers to all mages about how much power they could have if they just used a tiny bit of dhar. Basically, it was an absolute textbook perfect scenario for creating a grief-driven vengeance-seeking black Magister, and yet Mathilde stayed true to the cause. Aaaand also went from being an adorable derp to an adorable but serious derp.
I think they might see it as Mathilde, despite being overcome by grief, saw the actual problem behind the superficial ones. Sure, Sigmar couldn't wouldn't heal Van Hal, but it was the Vampires who cut him down in the first place. Overcoming issues and getting to the point of a problem is a very valuable skill to have for a troubleshooter.
Considering Mathilde's primary reason for considering leaving her job is lack of excitement, I don't see her lasting 10 years as a babysitter, even if that's code for 'Heidi's right hand'.

She doesn't even like kids.
I think that it would be less, "Imperial Spymaster" and more "Left Hand of the Empress"

And as much as I love Heidi, we I don't want to get dragged into her shenanigans...
There's "dragged into her shenanigans" and then there's "being there to be the voice of sanity in her shenanigans". Probably helpful to have someone on hand to be saying, "Yeah, that's... that's probably treason Heidi. No, not regular treason, I mean treason-treason. Maybe we can do this a different way?"

On the plus side, probably a lot more opportunities for Mathilde to stretch that "advanced assassination" skill than she would get working for Belegar.
I'll have to second Briefvoice in this. It's rather amusing that Heidi likely sees us as a friendly Ranaldite who would love to help her out, while we're more loyal to the empire and see her as a... counterbalance to the current Emperor. She might be running a long con on this, but from what we've seen in how she assists the Emperor in intrigue, she's a boon to the Empire, as long as she doesn't go too far.
Is this how Witchhunters feel about wizards? It might be.

And on the subject of Mandred and Mathilde not being overly keen on children. You can't hold an intellectual debate with them when they can barely speak after all, and she has little issue with teaching, look at the ducklings and Johann. She took a man who had zero interest in improving his Windsight and turned him into a rather formidable user of it.
 
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You know, I think the Border prince option is probably the best out of all the other options and is probably the best comprimise between solving everyone wants and desires from this quest and i'll try and express why here so i can more easilly argue for it when Boney makes the big post as communicating thoughts to readable, understandable English is real hard more me to do so quick so here we go.

Welp the first point for It I guess is that it conveniently positions us near enough to K8P, Stirland, Altdorf etc so we won't have to worry about losing acces to all our backers and we will have the backing of Barack varr, colleges if we want to pull them to help us in something like towers, ad the dwarven empire like for example building a fortress with cash and favours which was an option at the when we were fired from Stirland I believe.

Either way, this leads onto my next point is that this job means we can still have acces to K8P which means if we decide on the big library boon or the research centre or heck even both we can still acces them. I think Pickle has a quote on what research centre will do so i'll try looking for it... ah here it is.
A would probably result in it subsuming the current Duckling/Johann/Max half-turns and having three half-turns dedicated to managing the Branch and its employees or performing collaborative research, which would also make it that practically any research task could be performed with those half-turns. B would be a lot trickier to work into the narrative so I'd have to think about how it'd work, but at the very least it would make it much more likely that some more Wizards would arrive to work with.
It however might be subject to rework if Boney decides it doesn't fit the naritive system but it will surely give us many benefits. Point is we can still go back to K8P and acces the research center for the bonuses it gives us like maybe half research actions, managing other wizards projects for our benefit and border prince benefit like say PanPan project to make good land in the border princes, and more cool magic projects to keep the tide of Waghs, orcs, and goblins at bay.

Point is we can still have acces to all of this cool research stuff as well as waystone research as K8P is still nearby and probably keep our writer boi as he can go still work with the dwarves.

Theirs Also another point i think i should bring up the fact were running out of cool things to investigate at K8P and our job their seems to be coming to an end.
Mathilde was hired as the weird shit poker and Karak Eight Peaks is running out of weird shit to poke. That's the actual problem here. Tearing holes in the justification for how Mathilde can seek a new job with a clear conscience and no loss of face doesn't change that. Sure, Belegar could keep taking care of more traditional problems to leave Mathilde free to poke at weird shit, or he could invent a new weird shit poker title, but none of that actually addresses the weird shit shortfall.

Mathilde can kick back and accept a sinecure, or she can go ham on pumping out even more defensive superweapons, or she can pivot to a weird shit troubleshooter for the wider Karaz Ankor, or she can begin a tripartite research project on the Waystones. But what she can't do is keep doing the same job exactly as it's been done up until now, because once more for the people at the back, Karak Eight Peaks will not spontaneously develop weird shit on a biannual basis just to justify Mathilde's occupation.

Theirs also this point that while BoneyM is offering a research Sabbatical, if he gets bored he will start baiting plot hooks and we'll probably leave K8P and no longer have the job offer of working at a place near K8P within teleport tower range like we have with the border prince.
'Research sabbatical' will be an option, with the disclaimer that if I get bored I'll start baiting plot hooks.
I don't think we'll be given the option of staying more then 5 years at most for a research sabatical while if we choose the border prince job i expect to probably stay their for at least a decade exploring it for cool shit, keeping order in the border princes, and making more magical weapons and magical solutions to problems in the border prince area.

Either way i think this job preferable then any other options as we can still be a mage and leave deplomacy, piety, stewardship, martial to the wolves, etc to other peeps on our council while we might spend 2 - 4 ap doing direct diplomacy with local princes and rallying support for our cause from other sources like the empire or the dwarves or other religous institutions like Kasmir did.

Also for those worried we'll be dumped with the job i would point out it's just a popularity contest of which option does Malthitide look into with more depth so i think we can expect a year or 2 befpre moving onto our new job and settling old socials with other peeps.
- The current plan for Mathilde's next raison d'être is similar to how romance was handled: a vote will be held where everyone is invited to vote for any offers they feel are interesting, and the most popular ones will have Mathilde seek more information about the arrangement before any final decisions are made.
Meh just my thoughts on why i think border princes is the best option as just like with being Belegar's court wizard we can still continue to focus on magical prjects to help defend our position from the local rulers and gribbles, etc while still exploring the border prince as an adventurous location wwhich was once home to Nehekaren colonies and i believe Elven wights and adventurers so that could be fun.

Just my prefered job as we can still have access to all the resources we have at K8P and do magic shit while PanPan works her magic to terraform good land for the border princes future residents like we did at K8P and more cool adventure.

Sorry if this might seem like a ramble, really sucks to try and communicate my thoughts on something without it taking like 30 minutes to an hour and discussion is already dead and i'd like to prevent that when i argue for this option when the vote actually comes.
 
I don't get people who want Mathilde's Distain for Sigmar to dissapear because it's not mechanically convenient. Mathilde is not a perfect avatar of the threads will, but her own character with her iwn flaws and mistakes. Yes, distain for Sigmar might make our life harder in some jobs, but that's how consequences of dice rolls work - sometimes you're fucked by the dice and have to work around it. That's fun.
Flaws are things one can overcome and grow from, and that is a good thing. However, we do need some narrative engagement with that trait for Mathilde to grow from it after all that time, which we currently lack. One thing I could kind of see right now is Mathilde becoming more interested in the inner workings of the gods and instead of simply disdaining Sigmar looking into why and how he or any other god helps or does not help in any given situation, but even that is kind of a stretch.
 
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I don't get people who want Mathilde's Distain for Sigmar to dissapear because it's not mechanically convenient. Mathilde is not a perfect avatar of the threads will, but her own character with her iwn flaws and mistakes. Yes, distain for Sigmar might make our life harder in some jobs, but that's how consequences of dice rolls work - sometimes you're fucked by the dice and have to work around it. That's fun.
While i do agree with you I should point out that their are people who may want to work with sigmarites and not have Malthitide screw things up. Theirs also people who want to work in the empire more but find themselves barraded by people saying Malthitide will massivly screw up when working with sigmarites even if their not all bad like some of the ulric people even though they have their extremists and may wish to remove the flaw at a better chance to get more involved with the empire.

A character overcoming a flaw isn't neccicerily bad. I just prefer it when theirs a peak moment likesay for example we decide to work with a local border prince who's a sigmar worshippor and he rolls like a god and solves many of our porblems and breaks many Waghs and is brstling with Sigmar energy and pulls Anton level shit and we make memes that Sigmar has arrived.

Or just the future sigmar worshippors we come to contact with are generellt nice and helpful in the future to come

That for me is personally reason enough to vote for removal of anti sigmar trait.

Some people aren't like that and are getting cock blocked by their desires of what they want Malthtide to do int he future like work in the empire because of the trait or fear Malthitide will become no more worse then what we all hate like the fanatical sigmarites and treat em like shit which is a concern i have to an extant but believe Malthtide can keep it in her to hopefyully be the better person in the given situation.

Point is, it's a valid trait for people to vote on for their own reasons or aspirations for this quest and a character improving themselves for the better doesn't make them less human.
 
For the record I am not concerned Mathilde will suddenly act out against Sigmarites at say court, but more than she just generally hates their god... and she has a diplomacy of 14. I do not think she would be able to keep her opinion hidden long and once it is out in the open that on itself is likely to land us in hot water.
 
Aren't High Kings elected? At least if there is no natural-born heir that is?
Yes. Well, sort of - IIRC, the High King can name his heir under dawi law but it's traditional and adds a lot of legitimacy to have the choice ratified/approved by a Council of Elders, so the dwarves being dwarves that's pretty much always part of the process barring some extraordinary circumstance. But it would also probably be traditional for said Council not to overturn or object to the legitimate choice of the High King. So I'd imagine it plays out more like a chance for the Elders to grumble and air possible concerns, and maybe have the prospective heir offer defenses to concerns raised, so that everyone can get a sense of if there's things it's felt the heir should be working on to prepare themselves, moreso than something where a "nominee" (so to speak) might actually get rejected outright. As that would be an implicit repudiation of the High King that chose them which would be a big scandal in Dwarfland.

And IIRC that's actually even if there are natural-born heirs; there doesn't seem to be a tradition of automatic succession to the High Kingship per se, though it would be normal for High Kings to have a preference for their own children for obvious reasons. As I recall, it's noted in the lore somewhere that Thorgrim was considered a leading candidate to be heir to the High King even before the High King's sons died in the Great War Against Chaos and was educated/prepared accordingly.

Now to cross my fingers that I remembered all that right and I'm not about to get corrected by a bunch of experts on the Deep Lore for the dawi. 🤞
I will state for the record that I am still all in favour of Disdain for Sigmar, and the odds of me voting for any Trait that either mitigates or outright removes it are slim at best.

... Not entirely zero, but close to it.
The technically non-zero probability:
Changed Trait: Disdain for Morr. Come to think of it, while Sigmar may have let Abelhelm die, it was death itself that actually took him from you. Why not point your ire where it truly belongs? After all, this is a problem you have the tools to actually do something about...
my issue with these two is primarily what you pointed out in the first one, Imperial intrigue.
The heck? That's not actually my post you're quoting. For one thing, I remember that his name is Mandred. :V
 
@BoneyM, just a small suggestion: I hope we get a look at what traits we can pick, but don't actually pick them until we decide on the next job. That way we can advance our build with eyes towards what we're about to use it for.
I disagree

lessons of the past are not affected by what has yet to come.

Mathy finished the arc before the job offers. so it makes sense that she got the traits before them.
 
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For the record I am not concerned Mathilde will suddenly act out against Sigmarites at say court, but more than she just generally hates their god... and she has a diplomacy of 14. I do not think she would be able to keep her opinion hidden long and once it is out in the open that on itself is likely to land us in hot water.
I think you're overreacting. The colleges as a whole don't like the Church of Sigmar much after they got them outlawed. We won't be expected to like them and as long as we don't start publicly trashing Sigmar they won't have much reason to go after us imo.

Besides, Mathilde substitutes Learning for Diplo if she has time to prepare and lying/keeping something concealed is Intrigue, both of which are 25+.
 
For the record I am not concerned Mathilde will suddenly act out against Sigmarites at say court, but more than she just generally hates their god... and she has a diplomacy of 14. I do not think she would be able to keep her opinion hidden long and once it is out in the open that on itself is likely to land us in hot water.

I'd really hate to think that the Disdain for Sigmar trait means the thread can never take a job near the center of human political power.

Look, could it be a problem? Yeah, it could be a problem. Maybe it lands Mathilde in 'hot water' and then we have to deal with that and face up to it. But I view it as just one more difficulty to navigate, not an insurmountable obstacle. All these jobs will have their difficulties.
 
I think you're overreacting. The colleges as a whole don't like the Church of Sigmar much after they got them outlawed. We won't be expected to like them and as long as we don't start publicly trashing Sigmar they won't have much reason to go after us imo.

Besides, Mathilde substitutes Learning for Diplo if she has time to prepare and lying/keeping something concealed is Intrigue, both of which are 25+.

The colleges as a whole generally view the cults in general with a sort of detached superiority, you know trying to be High Elves and failing like Volans. Mathilde personally hates Sigmar's guts and holds him personally responsible for the greatest tragedy of her life and a dereliction of his duty to one of his people. Also we can only substitute learning for diplo when dealing with carefully scripted interactions not just 'has time to prepare'. We still rolled diplo to get Asandril and Deathfang for instance. We cannot script each one of her court interactions form now until the end of our job.

I'd really hate to think that the Disdain for Sigmar trait means the thread can never take a job near the center of human political power.

Cathay/Ind: Right center of human political power.:whistle:

Hell even Bretonia has a decent claim at being a greater power in the Old World.
 
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I don't think the Disdain trait will impact much (if at all) on the job vote. Its a to big choice.
Also the trait doesnt make Mathilde dislike Sigmarites, its a thing with Sigmar himself.
Mechanically she will stop the cult from growing in her institution, it may pose difficulties if the cult gets to disproportionately large when compared to other while under her, and I believe its problems she would have to deal with rather than just a horrible thing.
Personally I want her to lose or change the trait simply because it was a long time and I would like seeing her move pass it, she got a lot of Gods lore this expedition so it may fit narratively.
 
Also the trait doesnt make Mathilde dislike Sigmarites, its a thing with Sigmar himself.

I feel that the notion of faithful of Sigmar not reacting much if at all to someone hating their god... dubious. People tend to react worse not better to attacks to their gods as opposed to themselves

Cathay is controlled by dragons and Brettonia by whatever the Lady is, even if most of their population is human. Dunno about Ind, maybe.

Whatever the Lady is is called 'a god' just like this 'Sigmar' thing with the hammer. By that standard there are no human nations
 
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I'm all for buying off the Sigmar disdain trait... once it makes narrative sense to do so. Mathilde hasn't actually experienced anything that would make her more positively inclined towards Sigmar in the past few years, so buying it off seems unfitting.

Once we actually interact with Sigmarites in a meaningful way again, and finally cash in on that promised juicy religious tensions subplot, then I could see myself voting for Mathilde to grow as a person on the topic of Sigmar.
 
I feel that the notion of faithful of Sigmar not reacting much if at all to someone hating their god... dubious. People tend to react worse not better to attacks to their gods as opposed to themselves

Oh I totally agree with that. Its just that for me its better to hate a god for a perceptive failure than their faithful. Its to much like prejudice for my taste.
 
Whatever the Lady is is called 'a god' just like this 'Sigmar' thing with the hammer. By that standard there are no human nations

Sigmar a) was a human, thus making the Empire the most human (also applies to Ranald and maybe other gods, but the Lady is pretty explicitly elven, an not in the "its the same god with a different name" way) and b) takes a much, much, much less direct hand on controlling things (you do not see Sigmar sending agents to take young boys and make them into superwarrior prophets).

In addition , there is a huge limit between a religious polity (even a strongly religious polity) and a theocratic polity. In the Empire, even though Sigmars primacy is enshrouded in many rituals and some laws and even the name of the Empire, in practice, you are free to believe in other gods and say "Sigmar's not that great", you can even be secular. You can get to Emperor while being an Ulrican, or, theoretically, a Ranaldite (hopefully this theory gets proven). In Brettonia, while polytheism is respected, the Lady's primacy is sanctioned in the system, and you cannot be high ranking unless you owe allegiance to her first.
 
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I feel that the notion of faithful of Sigmar not reacting much if at all to someone hating their god... dubious. People tend to react worse not better to attacks to their gods as opposed to themselves
Mathilde doesn't actually hate Sigmar.
Hate is an active thing.
The trait is "Disdain for Sigmar"
Disdain: the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect.
Disdain is very much a passive thing, nothing like hatred.
 
Here the trait for it
Disdain for Sigmar: Abelhelm Van Hal died abandoned by Sigmar. You intend to return the favour. +1 Piety due to renewed faith in other gods, will not let Sigmarism flourish in institutions she controls - penalty to institutional actions unless worship of another god is instituted. Seem like pretty active disdain
 
Sigmar a) was a human, thus making the Empire the most human (also applies to Ranald and maybe other gods, but the Lady is pretty explicitly elven, an not in the "its the same god with a different name" way) and b) takes a much, much, much less direct hand on controlling things (you do not see Sigmar sending agents to take young boys and make them into superwarrior prophets).

Maybe Mathy would like him more if he did. :V

Mathilde doesn't actually hate Sigmar.
Hate is an active thing.
The trait is "Disdain for Sigmar"
Disdain: the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect.
Disdain is very much a passive thing, nothing like hatred.

That trait is not defined just by that single word. Look at how she got it, look at her feelings demonstrated towards the god afterwards. she had to actively bite back her dislike of Sigmar numerous times. Passive her feelings are not.
 
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Maybe Mathy would like him more if he did. :V

Never said a theocracy, or god intervention is a bad thing. Just that god intervention in way that directly steers a nation means humans aren't the ones in control, unless the god was once a human. Humans not being the ones in control is not necessarilly a bad thing either, if said god is genuinely competent and good, but it still is.
 
Never said a theocracy, or god intervention is a bad thing. Just that god intervention in way that directly steers a nation means humans aren't the ones in control, unless the god was once a human. Humans not being the ones in control is not necessarilly a bad thing either, if said god is genuinely competent and good, but it still is.

Keep in mind gods are not somewhere isolated from their worshipers, they are dependent upon faith to live and influenced by it in their form. the Lady may have made Bretonia, but the reverse is just as true, the stories the Bretonians told about her made the Lady. No matter what is started as there is quite a bit of human ideal to her now.
 
In addition , there is a huge limit between a religious polity (even a strongly religious polity) and a theocratic polity. In the Empire, even though Sigmars primacy is enshrouded in many rituals and some laws and even the name of the Empire, in practice, you are free to believe in other gods and say "Sigmar's not that great", you can even be secular. You can get to Emperor while being an Ulrican, or, theoretically, a Ranaldite (hopefully this theory gets proven). In Brettonia, while polytheism is respected, the Lady's primacy is sanctioned in the system, and you cannot be high ranking unless you owe allegiance to her first.

You can be one of the Lady's Champions (Grail Knights) while also worshipping other gods and so be eligible for the throne. Indeed, it would be perfectly possible to be blessed by another god. I think there are canon Grail Knights who have Mannan's blessings as well as the Lady's.

Humans in the Empire don't have to be faithful to a single god, indeed the only people that do are fanatical Sigmarites and the mainstream of the Cult burns them at the stake for it. I think almost everyone worships the entire pantheon in respect to their sphere of influence. You pray to Morr when someone you love dies or you have a portentous dream and to Shallya when they're sick, to one of the war gods when you go to war, to Verena when you're curious about something and want to learn more or fall afoul of the law, or to Sigmar when you interact with state institutions.
 
I'm all for buying off the Sigmar disdain trait... once it makes narrative sense to do so. Mathilde hasn't actually experienced anything that would make her more positively inclined towards Sigmar in the past few years, so buying it off seems unfitting.

Once we actually interact with Sigmarites in a meaningful way again, and finally cash in on that promised juicy religious tensions subplot, then I could see myself voting for Mathilde to grow as a person on the topic of Sigmar.
That's actually a good point. If we had disdain for Ulric or Taal, then having worked with knights dedicated to that deity would have helped. But we haven't actually dealt with many Sigmarites at all. The only one really is Kasmir, and that was forever ago.
 
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