Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
pucflek said:
This would be valid criticism if BoneyM was writing a narrative quest. He does not, so sometimes plotlines and hooks fall flat due to bad rolls or the results of vote(this is not even a first time this has happened in quest, just a first time that it did not work out for us). Such is the nature of writing dice ruled quests, and no amount of good writing can change the way it is. You either have to change framework or accept that it do be like that sometimes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The frustrating part was not the fate of Karag Dum, which is where the dice roll came in. It's perfectly reasonable that "actually they did turn to questionable magic to survive" was the answer. The frustrating part is not having any catharsis where Borek or someone from Karag Dum comes out and justifies themselves and we vote to condemn them or not judge them or plead with them to send somebody back to Karaz Ankor or something like that. Instead Borek goes, "I know this looks bad and it is," then nopes out of the Expedition and we're left with more questions than answers.

None of that was a dice roll. That was an authorial choice.
 
Briefvoice said:
None of that was a dice roll. That was an authorial choice.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, that was voting choice. You wanted Borek to talk, you should have tried to campaign for Borek interactions. WoG is it may have quite changed the dialogue as Borek was disembarging. Everything compounds. BoneyM gave us the tools, how we use them is up to us.

I am not going to call BoneyM perfect writer, because he is not (though if you look at the beginning of the quest, he improved a lot, and he did not actually start out half bad). But he works with the medium he chose very well and what happened here was not some kind of literary fuck up, just a consequence of the culmination of our votes. Sometimes the quest doesn't go how you want it to. Complaining about that and blaming it on author's deficiency is just immature.
 
Last edited:
Robotninja said:
That was the choice of characters inside the story as per dwarven cultural views and it was pretty obvious that they would do that.

Complaining just makes the author feel bad, which reduces their motivation to write one of the best quests on site.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There has to be a way to say politely and without making the QM feel bad when something in a quest doesn't work for you. Respectful feedback is important.

Some of what happened at Karag Dum was explicitly experimental with the open-ended write-ins for theories and actions. I don't think the experiment worked as well as intended.
 
pucflek said:
No, that was voting choice. You wanted Borek to talk, you should have tried to campaign for Borek interactions. WoG is it may have quite changed the dialogue as Borek was disembarging. Everything compounds. BoneyM gave us the tools, how we use them is up to us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's also in character. It's one thing to say 'dwarfs are self destructive', quite another to show it beyond bit characters going slayer. What happened here shows us the darker side stubbornness in a way that is more than just fluff, it's a tragedy and as such should leave us sad and angry and wondering how far will go to try and fix it.

Not as far as marching though a beastman inhabited forest under the eye of Morghur happens to be the answer. that is a question about Mathilde we would have never have known the answer too if it had not been for this arc.
 
Last edited:
Well, if we are going to talk about the whole Dum investigation, I feel that there are two thing I want to mention:

First, the fact that each vote had to win against the leave option made things anoying.

Second, the fact that people that didn't want to investigate could vote an option to wait and see, in order to hinder the people that did actually want to do some investigation, felt even worse.
 
Last edited:
pucflek said:
This would be valid criticism if BoneyM was writing a narrative quest. He does not, so sometimes plotlines and hooks fall flat due to bad rolls or the results of vote(this is not even a first time this has happened in quest, just a first time that it did not work out for us). Such is the nature of writing dice ruled quests, and no amount of good writing can change the way it is. You either have to change framework or accept that it do be like that sometimes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is what I love about quests. The narrative tension feels real in a way that traditional storytelling never does. If you still have 200 pages left it's a safe bet the protagonist isn't about to die in their current predicament.
 
D.Rockstar said:
Well, if we are going to talk about the whole Dum investigation, I feel that there are two thing I want to mention:

First, the fact that each vote had to win against the leave option made things anoying.

Second, the fact that people that didn't want to investigate could vote an option to wait and see, in order to hinder the people that did actually want to do some investigation, felt even worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wait and see was an option to investigate with zero danger. Had it not existed we would have just left, because enough people opposed taking any risks in order to investigate.

Would you have been happier if we'd just left?
 
I'm sure many people thought Abelhelm dying was a terrible decision by Boney which would kill the quest, but personally looking back on it it was an incredible story moment and catalysed so much, the story as it is now wouldn't be the same without it.

Personally although I've found Dum odd (certainly not terrible), it's still far too early to pass judgement. As Boney said we can still work on Dum remotely, and it's entirely possible we'll look back on this similarly to Abelhelm.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Wait, people are capable of feeling gratitude? :o

More seriously, I think it's more that we're unsure if it makes people super grateful or makes people more aware of the difficulties and dangers involved?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The latter, whether that leads to the former depends on the individuals.

Rafin said:
Isn't there an issue with carrying cows on our roofs while still in the Chaos Wastes? IIRC everything north of Praag is more Chaos-Wastey than Dolgan territory. Including the Frozen Sea. That was after all the reason we took this trip fhe way we did, because otherwise the original route would only be "more time spent in the Chaos Wastes" for a thin stretch of Kul territory, in which case going past Uzkulak and Moulder territory and the territories of two different Kurgan tribes was a pretty weird trade-off.

Anyway, this vote, as presented, is kind of weird. There's only positive stuff about the northern route and negative stuff about returning the way we came in the chapter, which makes the conclusion near obvious from the beginning.

It feels more like technically a choice while practically avoiding the repeated passing past the same old landmarks and the rehashing of the Uzkulak conundrum.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Both points here sum up to 'known obstacles are much more deterring than unknown ones'. To the thread as well, by the look of it. If the thread is swayed by the words of fellow leaders that don't want to retrace the path that killed Gotrek, then Mathilde is swayed.

SuperSonicSound said:
I mean there's always the possibility that no one has had the inspiration of trying to use a Wind to essentially tongs its self into casting another spell. One of the reasons reading the Liber Mortis is so useful is that it broadens the characters perspective on what can be done even just in terms of mono wind magic. I don't think Rite of way would have been fully possible with out reading the liber Mortis.

@BoneyM

Is that a fair assesment that the Liber mortis helped to make Rite of Way possible or is that just my mind pattern matching incorrectly?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Maybe on a meta level, it was the most obvious way for it to work to me and I've been reading the tongs debate every so often for years now.

D.Rockstar said:
First, the fact that each vote had to win against the leave option made things anoying.

Second, the fact that people that didn't want to investigate could vote an option to wait and see, in order to hinder the people that did actually want to do some investigation, felt even worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Plenty of people genuinely voted to wait and see because they thought that Karag Dum might reach out, or one of the Kurgan tribes might get in contact, or the result that actually happened and delivered useful information. Others thought that fortifying and watching was the least dangerous way to try to gather more information. Repainting it in hindsight as sabotage on behalf of other questers is IMO incorrect, and certainly a framing that's likely to poison the discourse. If the majority of questers don't want to take risks to gather information, then Mathilde won't take risks to gather information, that's just how this format works. People voting for their preferences is not an act of malice or a bug in the system.
 
Last edited:
dragonparadox said:
it's a tragedy and as such should leave us sad and angry and wondering how far will go to try and fix it.



not as far as marching though a beastman inhabited forest under the eye of morghur happens to be the answer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think a large portion if that was doubt that it was fixable, and to a lesser degree if there was a point.

A lot of people didn't think It was possible to get Dum and the Karma Ankor on amenable terms again, and a few people were wondering if it would help either side by a notable amount even if we did.

If we were more certain of either of these points, particularly the first, then I don't think any amount of risk would have stopped us.

Though, I rather think the ambiguity of "is this worth it" was part of the point. It's easy to gamble the lives of yourself and others when you know success means definitely saving lives. It's a much more difficult choice when you question if saving anyone at all is possible, if you're risking all of that plus your soul and the souls of your comrades for what might just be answers and nothing more.
 
Last edited:
King Arthur said:
Though, I rather think the ambiguity of "is this worth it" was part of the point. It's easy to be gamble the lives of yourself and others when yo know success means definitely saving lives. It's a much more difficult choice when you question if saving anyone at all is possible, if you're risking all of that plus your soul and the souls of your comrades for what might just be answers and nothing more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Or it might even literally be nothing. Nothing says the dwarfs would have spoken even if we did come face to face with one.
 
Out of curiosity, @BoneyM - did Mathilde have opportunity to look north from elevation of highlands Dum is placed on? Dun have star of chaos in emblem - I am curious if it's possible to see anything when looking north? How deeper wastes panorama looks like when seen form the high?

That which was shown of Wastes in Yusak territory was fascinating. It's such a pity Wastes are so deadly. It could be so very interesting to explore, but I guess about only way to do it would be to actually join Yusak, Kvellige or other waste-based tribe.
 
Last edited:
DiceOfStupidity said:
Out of curiosity, @BoneyM - did Mathilde have opportunity to look north from elevation of highlands Dum is placed on? Dun have star of chaos in emblem - I am curious if it's possible to see anything when looking north? How deeper wastes panorama looks like?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No, north from the Expedition's position was Karag Dum itself. Circling around to see further north would have meant cutting through the 'territory' of either the Kul or the Kvellige.
 
D.Rockstar said:
Second, the fact that people that didn't want to investigate could vote an option to wait and see, in order to hinder the people that did actually want to do some investigation, felt even worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I voted to wait and see because most of the other options seemed outrageously risky. Rushing into the forest or even the karak when we knew basically nothing about the situation and there was a mutagenic demigod sitting there seemed foolhardy to me.

Part of it is that I saw the risks as being far worse than 'just' death. 'And then Mathilde was a Chaos Spawn' is one of the worst endings to this quest I can think of. At least if she dies she gets to go hang with Ranald. Chaos Spawn would instead lead to gibbering madly and madly gibbering, and even if killed I'm pretty sure would result in her soul getting grabbed by one of the Four for eternal torture. That's the kind of ending that taints everything that precedes it.

Further, it wasn't just a risk to Mathilde. The expedition is very much relying on her Rite of Way and Moockery of Death.

If it was a situation where the worst result was death and no one was relying on her then I likely would have given in to curiousity.

But maybe not, because I also genuinely felt that 'Wait and See' was the best option for learning the most relevant information. That being, whether Karag Dum was actually interested in communication at all, with the possible bonus of getting to see Morghur in action against Kurgan.

Both of these were fulfilled. We learned that, no, Dum does not want to talk to us- and also that Morghur was not in any way purified and still had his mutagenic powers- and, too, that they and he were bound.

At that point I didn't see how any further information could change the overall result enough to be worth the risk, and so voted to leave.
 
BoneyM said:
No, north from the Expedition's position was Karag Dum itself. Circling around to see further north would have meant cutting through the 'territory' of either the Kul or the Kvellige.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Awww.... can we ask Asarnil to check when departing? Not to fly over any other territory - merely see how it looks like from possition high above Expedition. (or carry Mathilde for a few minutes to let her see on her own).

Meowtilde curiosity. We are (reclutantly) giving up secrets of Dum. Maybe this would make a consolation prize at least.
 
@BoneyM

Windherding question (I'm looking at making a list of potential windherder enchantments) - Could we combine Mindhole with a different wind to target something that matched that wind?

Two specific examples:

Mindhole+Gold Magic to allow a gold mage to get themself forgotten. (Idea is that the Chamon could target the Gold Mage for the Ulgu to make forgotten, in the same way that Mindhole can normally only erase self-memory because it needs something Ulgu-soaked.)

Mindhole(RS) + Secret Rune(MC) to hold a secret message that is forgotten when it is rendered invisible.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
Awww.... can we ask Asarnil to check when departing? Not to fly over any other territory - merely see how it looks like from possition high above Expedition. (or carry Mathilde for a few minutes to let her see on her own).

Meowtilde curiosity. We are (reclutantly) giving up secrets of Dum. Maybe this would make a consolation prize at least.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Asarnil and Deathfang don't want to fly through the Wind-streams twice unless there's a better reason than sightseeing.

kingreaper said:
@BoneyM

Windherding question (I'm looking at making a list of potential windherder enchantments) - Could we combine Mindhole with a different wind to target something that matched that wind?

Two specific examples:

Mindhole+Gold Magic to allow a gold mage to get themself forgotten. (Idea is that the Chamon could target the Gold Mage for the Ulgu to make forgotten, in the same way that Mindhole can normally only erase self-memory because it needs something Ulgu-soaked.)

Mindhole(RS) + Secret Rune(MC) to hold a secret message that is forgotten when it is rendered invisible.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No.
 
Well, we knew this vote was going to be pretty one sided, but I did not expect it to be this one sided...

Adhoc vote count started by Fanhunter696 on Jan 13, 2021 at 4:52 PM, finished with 475 posts and 113 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top