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I meant secrets the grey college teach their students about magic that are central to their operation that they would kill to maintain the monopoly on the knowledge.
ok, lets see.

@BoneyM, of the top of your head, whats something grey college teach their students about magic that are central to their operation that they would kill to maintain the monopoly on the knowledge the same way the golds or jades do with things like laylines and the hounds.
 
Hence why I said completely aside from anything to do with Cython. And it would probably be mist or shadow breathing, if we raised it Ulgu. Although... hmm. I should note that there's a representative from six of the eight winds—seven if you count Cython and eight if we get lucky and bring home an Amber from the expedition—in Eight Peaks, and Mathilde might in the future have access to elven Archmages. Has there ever been a High Magic dragon?
That raises the interesting question of whether dragon type is nature or nurture. I'd guess nature myself, which would mean there's no way to get an Ulgu Dragon from a Hysh Dragon Egg.
 
Qhaysh 'time is what I say it is, or else'
But my High Magic Archmage Lords keep telling me that they can't rewrite reality. Are you saying they've been lying to me?

Another day, another reason why everybody should vote to romance Roswita.

Namely that she is the only love interest we have who can match our hat game. Cython doesn't wear any (as far as we know) and Johann/Panoramia don't even wear the traditional wizard hats. Roswita, on the other hand, has been trained by the Witch Hunters, meaning that she draws power from the exact same source of hats that Mathilde does. This is the kind of compatibility you can't just build up over a few dates!
Are you sure about that? Personally, I've always imagined her as going hatless, although that could very well be in the same area as the part of me that always imagined Mathilde going around holding a staff despite her explicitly not having one yet.

Are there quotes that depict Ros wearing a hat?
 
And if the dragon does not rebuff it?
I don't really buy into the "protagonist must fail to face growth" as a hard rule, we have plenty of adversity as is, having romance be something chill and not apcalyptic is fine.

If the dragon does not rebuff it we handle it then, that is generally how people deal with romance and life in general not second guessing themselves at every opportunity.
Also while Abel's death was certainly hardship, I don't think being rebuffed romantically would be in the same category, it would just be a thing that happens to people, another step in a vibrant and hopefully long life
 
No, a 65% casualty rate to become a Loremaster (able to cast every Battle Magic spell) seems about right to me. The vast majority of Battle Wizards settle for less.

That assumes that there are no failed attempts to learn the spell, if i'm understanding it right. It also assumes that there was no jump in difficulty from going from Smoke an mirrors which literally isn't a spell in the lore to the actual battle magic spells. I suspect that the requirement is more than a 50 on the second roll.

Mathilde probably has a few dozen secrets in her head, that she does not remember, just like the Skaven thing.

None of these are grey college mystery cult secrets or links, in fact none of the things given as a example of things Mathilde would kill to maintain the secret are related to the grey college.

AV we literally wouldn't kill to maintain the secret. It's already out and frankly even if it wasn't why the heck would we care it's legal as far as we're concerned.

Liber mortis we might kill to maintain the secret, but again not a grey order thing. We could have played a amethyst wizard and had access to the liber mortis. Not related.

Qrech is known about with at the very least our underlings. Not a grey order secret.

The Hedge wise thing could be but as far as I'm aware Mathilde knows literally nothing about them and there's nothing central to any of the magical knowledge she posses which is under a grey order we'll exile you for telling any one lock.
 
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@picklepikkl , someone
I already linked them to my effortpost! What more do you want from me? I'VE GIVEN JOHANN EVERYTHING I HAVE

ahem
But setting that aside the Grey Colleges secrets (that we're aware of) seem to be mostly spycraft stuff rather than mystical stuff, and the sort of thing that you don't get until journeyman or later. Stuff like: We're quite happy to have people effectively breach some of our rules, aiming to get blackmailed, so that they can infiltrate cults.
I agree with this take. I think it's likely that basically any corner of the Grey College has people doing something extremely shady that might possibly land them in hot water. Like, I said it after Regimand's debriefing:
holy shit, from the outside, a loyal Grey Wizard doing a bunch of prosocial scheming looks distressingly like a genuine Black Magister who saw which way the wind was blowing, burned his masters to stave off suspicion, and assassinated the Empress for giggles.

Did he ever debrief Algard on this? Like, OK, his point about better to ask for forgiveness than permission when doing your crazy MI6 bullshit makes sense, but he didn't actually mention ever asking forgiveness. Just the part where he murdered his way through a list.
The Grey College is the frigging disappear-people-in-the-night-or-kill-them-without-trial secret police. It's got dark, buried secrets: they're just related to ongoing or completed operations more than they relate to the nature of magic.
 
oh, another secret the greys would kill over: The existence of the Lore of Stealth, it's a new one, but they really don't want that hanging over their head if it gets public.
 
ok, lets see.

@BoneyM, of the top of your head, whats something grey college teach their students about magic that are central to their operation that they would kill to maintain the monopoly on the knowledge the same way the golds or jades do with things like laylines and the hounds.
Alchemy's the better example for the golds. It and the leyline things are both pre-elven practices which have survived to the present day and are considered unusually central to the operations of the college. I'm not certain that the grey college really has a direct equivalent there, it's been noted that Teclis only initiated a very few highly trusted members into it and so it probably had less institutional pre-elven knowledge.

An equivalent to the hounds would be where the pit of shades goes to.
 
If the dragon does not rebuff it we handle it then, that is generally how people deal with romance and life in general not second guessing themselves at every opportunity.
Also while Abel's death was certainly hardship, I don't think being rebuffed romantically would be in the same category, it would just be a thing that happens to people, another step in a vibrant and hopefully long life
I'm not talking about Abel's death, i am talking about the current vote.
The best thing Abel did was dying, because any potential romance between Mathilde and Abelheim would have been almost certainly a hard no for me.
But the "lost lover" aspect is way overstated.

You might think trying, and failing, to woo a dragon might make for a better story, but that's no reason to pre emptively sabotage other romance options.
I'm sure that's not what you intended, but that it kinda comes of ass with "but what about these other people" once an option wins.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin

I'd actually be happy with most of the potential romance options, but these two are the ones that seem the most interesting. I was originally uncertain of the dragon, but the last social won me over. Pan Pan's last action felt like it was basically a casual date already.

[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.

The king of the Karak and our hearts.

[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.

Kasmir was one of my favorite characters toward the end of the Stirland arc, and it would be nice to catch up with him before our trip to the outskirts of hell.
 
MAthilde probably has a few dozen secrets in her head, that she does not remember, just like the Skaven thing.

The Grey college does lean quite a bit into compartmentalization in comparison to the Golds and Greens, where it seems Alchemy/Druidic lore is more widely spread. The kind of secrets a normal Grey student has access to and could spill just aren't as significant mystically. I'd say the biggest thing they could do would be squealing about more mundane things actually. Any of them that tries breaching the 'thin grey line' and giving outsiders a detailed idea about methods and operational procedure and things of that nature probably gets taken out.
 
oh, another secret the greys would kill over: The existence of the Lore of Stealth, it's a new one, but they really don't want that hanging over their head if it gets public.

You guys keep saying things that you could literally change the college to any other college and the same would be true. That doesn't make it a grey college secret. It just makes a generic secret.
 
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
 
Allright I've struggled with how to phrase this post for a while, so I'll just come out and ask:

@BoneyM Could you give us an idea of what point on the battle magic miscast roll you would generally think the really bad stuff (death, super demons, warp portals etc.) would start? Or the general level of dangerous miscasts when using battle magic.

I think that would be helpful to the thread in getting a general idea of the dangers involved in learning future battle magic outside the fog specialisation.

Also, I think it might help if you could explain your stance on the fluff versus crunch of battle magic casting. Doing some back of the envelope calcs, if for example the DC on the miscast table for bad was as low as 30 (aka essentially a 1 to everyone with 30+ learning, so lord patriarchs, vampires etc), I'm not sure how you could ever reliably train up battle wizards without stupidly high casualty rates.

I did some back of the envelope calculations using our smoke and mirrors learning as a baseline.

  • Assumptions: DC to avoid horrible miscast: 30
  • Journeyman all start with 15 learning
  • Partly learned casting penalty reduced to -15 (college training programme, meaning flat rolls to cast (+15 learning-15 partly learned)
  • No penalty for low magic score (3-4 despite needing 7 to cast)
  • DC 50 to cast any battle magic spell.
  • Pre rooms of oh dear.

Roughly half the class would be rolling on the miscast table. That would mean 15% of those (DC30- learning 15) would run into the dead, warp portal, summon big demons section of the miscast table. That's around a 7.5% (0.5*0.15) casualties.

The not dead failures try again. 42.5% start, 21.25% fail another another 3.18% die. 21.25% try, another 1.5% die. Repeat until you've passed.

That's over 12% journeyman casualties. Per spell. With some fairly generous assumptions and them never having to cast with a lower partially learned penalty again.

There are 8 battle magic spells, many of which are harder than smoke and mirrors. Keep it at around the same scale (casting gets harder but journeymen get better that gives roughly 65% casualties (0.88 to the power of 8 *100) for a fully trained battle wizard. That's with absurdly generous assumptions and forgetting that some people would have to cast with a penalty multiple times.

It also ignores the significant average number of tries it takes for each student to even learn the spell in the first place.

I'm not going to give hard numbers because Mathilde doesn't have hard numbers. It's intentional that Battle Magic is an unquantified risk.

I meant secrets the grey college teach their studengs about magic that are central to their operation that they would kill to maintain the monopoly on the knowledge.
@BoneyM, of the top of your head, whats something grey college teach their students about magic that are central to their operation that they would kill to maintain the monopoly on the knowledge the same way the golds or jades do with things like laylines and the hounds.

The thread's been with Mathilde every time she's learned something from the Grey College in the last fifteen years. If any of what Mathilde had been taught was worth killing over, that would have been mentioned.

That said, it is a death sentence for anyone not in an officially recognized magical institution to practice arcane magic, and the Grey College is the only one for Grey Magic in the Empire, so an alternative answer would be 'literally all of it'.
 
I'm not talking about Abel's death, i am talking about the current vote.
The best thing Abel did was dying, because any potential romance between Mathilde and Abelheim would have been almost certainly a hard no for me.
But the "lost lover" aspect is way overstated.

You might think trying, and failing, to woo a dragon might make for a better story, but that's no reason to pre emptively sabotage other romance options.
I'm sure that's not what you intended, but that it kinda comes of ass with "but what about these other people" once an option wins.

How is it sabotage though? We try to woo the dragon, it does not work we try again with someone else. If it does work well see previous posts for why dragon romance is interesting to me.
 
That raises the interesting question of whether dragon type is nature or nurture. I'd guess nature myself, which would mean there's no way to get an Ulgu Dragon from a Hysh Dragon Egg.
That's a possibility, though given the way dragon bone can be realigned to different winds, I kinda doubt it. The way I understood it was that dragons would slowly absorb and become aligned to one wind over time, probably the earliest years of their life, based on what was prevalent where they lived. Or at least, wherever their egg was kept. Granted, the distinction could be meaningless if that applies before the egg is laid, and most dragons would probably be hatched and raised in the territory of their mother anyways, and so be saturated in the same wind. But, theoretically; Mathilde could probably stick an egg that hasn't been saturated in her Ulgu tower. If I'm correct at least, and we all know how that saying goes.
 
The Grey College is the frigging disappear-people-in-the-night-or-kill-them-without-trial secret police. It's got dark, buried secrets: they're just related to ongoing or completed operations more than they relate to the nature of magic.
I think that that might be the secret, actually. Everybody suspects the Grey College is the Judge Dredd Style Secret Police, but there really isn't any evidence of it, or else the Witch Hunters would be frothing at the mouth. If anybody, even the other colleges, knew that we felt that our mandate to protect the Empire extended to assassinating members of the Imperial Family they'd freak out.
 
[An Eyewitness Account of a Distinct Variety of Skaven Sorcery, 2483. Subject: Rare, +1. Insight: Shattering, +3. Delivery: Competent, +0. Exotic, +1. Precious, +1. Classified, -2. Total: +4.]
Anonymous, -1: Circumstances dictate that the true author of the paper is concealed from the general public.
Classified, -2: Only those trusted by the Empire can access the material written of in this paper.
Top Secret, -3: Only those whose loyalty to the Empire is beyond question are allowed to know that the paper even exists.
Eyes Only, -4: The paper concerns matters so dangerous or sensitive that it can only be made available to those with an immediate and pressing need for the information.
I still believe our Skaven-Sorcerer paper barely slid into the Classified-Pile and almost made it into Top Secret.
Any actual spell-howto would likely end up Eyes Only.
 
That's a possibility, though given the way dragon bone can be realigned to different winds, I kinda doubt it. The way I understood it was that dragons would slowly absorb and become aligned to one wind over time, probably the earliest years of their life, based on what was prevalent where they lived. Or at least, wherever their egg was kept. Granted, the distinction could be meaningless if that applies before the egg is laid, and most dragons would probably be hatched and raised in the territory of their mother anyways, and so be saturated in the same wind. But, theoretically; Mathilde could probably stick an egg that hasn't been saturated in her Ulgu tower. If I'm correct at least, and we all know how that saying goes.
Certainly that's a possibility, but that would also mean that dragons could change types on their own, over time, by spending enough of it in an area saturated with a different wind. I think it more likely dragons are born with a pre-disposition for a wind, and it is only after their death that their bodies can be realigned from that wind.
 
Certainly that's a possibility, but that would also mean that dragons could change types on their own, over time, by spending enough of it in an area saturated with a different wind. I think it more likely dragons are born with a pre-disposition for a wind, and it is only after their death that their bodies can be realigned from that wind.
If they possess a predisposition, it's likely as a part of their personality. If they experienced a life-altering event, I don't see why their emotional composition couldn't change with the rest of them.
 
I'm not going to give hard numbers because Mathilde doesn't have hard numbers. It's intentional that Battle Magic is an unquantified risk.




The thread's been with Mathilde every time she's learned something from the Grey College in the last fifteen years. If any of what Mathilde had been taught was worth killing over, that would have been mentioned.

That said, it is a death sentence for anyone not in an officially recognized magical institution to practice arcane magic, and the Grey College is the only one for Grey Magic in the Empire, so an alternative answer would be 'literally all of it'.

Yes but that alternative answer would be unsatisfying because you know it doesn't really answer the actual question being put forth. Magic can be reverse engineered to be used with other winds potentially. The gold college would rather kill people than allow even the smallest risk that other colleges of magic could make use of Alchemy for instance I don't think the Grey college has anything remotely like that and it kind of chaffs a little. Wheres our super special secret? :p


If they possess a predisposition, it's likely as a part of their personality. If they experienced a life-altering event, I don't see why their emotional composition couldn't change with the rest of them.

Mono wind beings realigning to other winds sounds a lot like "Create dhar being"
 
I think that that might be the secret, actually. Everybody suspects the Grey College is the Judge Dredd Style Secret Police, but there really isn't any evidence of it, or else the Witch Hunters would be frothing at the mouth. If anybody, even the other colleges, knew that we felt that our mandate to protect the Empire extended to assassinating members of the Imperial Family they'd freak out.
And should one of those most terrible of secrets be uncovered and the powers-that-be didn't wish to make a spectacle of it, the sword that prunes errant branches from even the most ancient and respected of families were the Shadowmancers, the Illusionists of the Grey Guardians, the wielders of the Sword of Judgement who answer only to the Emperor.

Well, doesn't look like much of a secret on first glance.
On second glance he believes the Grey Order to always act sanctioned by the Emperor...
 
On an in-fiction level, I sympathize. On a meta level, I am okay enough with most of the possibilities that I don't think it's worth it to try to date around before picking a partner; extending the period of time before we're locked in to someone's route just seems stressful for the thread and really unpleasant for the people who don't want romance. So unless Pan's date goes really badly, I'll be advocating to lock her in so we can get the exploratory phase of romance over with.

Romance without sexuality is a thing; a lot of people have written about how their votes for the dragon are rooted in attraction for a being of power, intelligence, and experience, and a strong wish for that being's special regard as well. It isn't my thing at all, but I get it.

(There are also the people who have written things along the lines of "this is too funny not to pick" or "doing it for the meme," but those are thankfully a minority.)

More potential reasons than that, really. For example, I initially voted for this because I really wanted to see how a competent writer would handle such a romance. Dragon scene impressed me most of all romance scenes compatabillity and personality wise, so that kept the dream alive and I doubled down on dragon (if it sucked, I may have actually switched to Panoramia). I think that the dragon scene gave him a big boost of new voters too.
 
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