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Kinda coming back around on the economic arguement. Think of it like this:

The first few months of an embargo are going to hurt the empire worst and Marianburg the least, since we don't have any alternative routes in place yet, and Marianburg has stockpiles.

However, as soon as it becomes apparent that the empire is developing new options rather than cave, Marianburg undermines it's long-term position the longer the embargo goes on, as the empire reorients on a potentially permenant basis. So they'll want to wait until the maximum resources are committed, then cancel the embargo and attempt to force concessions along a different axis before the empire can pull back from it's over-extension.

Point being, the economic aid is just as much a matter of leverage as the navy, if Marianburg knows about it in advance. So I'm... Not changing, yet, but I might given more reflection.
 
The long-term benefits of this canal are so great that it's entirely worth it for Barak Varr to prop up the Empire's economy for a few years. It probably isn't that much more expensive than building the canal in the first place! Major waterway improvements like this are staggeringly expensive. The Panama Canal cost something like $10B in today's dollars. Barak Varr's canal, from the Black Water to the Aver Reach, is 1) being dug without the benefit of steam shovels 2) going through a mountain range 3) longer than the Panama Canal (judging by this map and this distance reference) 4) being actively raided by bandits and mercenaries. I'd expect it to cost the equivalent of tens or hundreds of billions of dollars. So, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a big pile of money set aside for dealing with exactly this kind of complication.
The thing is, Barak Varr is footing the bill on this canal to the tune of billions of dollars, then because of Marienburg we're going to ask them to ALSO prop up the ENTIRE EMPIRE for FIVE YEARS? On TOP of digging the canal.

They'd be entirely within their rights to be like 'Welp, see ya' and drop the project. They probably wouldn't because I can't imagine dwarves like leaving things half-finished. But you know the Empire would in a hot second.
 
Except securing all the land routes to send the gold and the goods through will cost lives. More lives than the crew of any 5 dreadnoughts.

We're talking about a small army of dwarves strewn across various roads, which are in no way safe for such volumes of cargo, and trying to stop every opportunist under the sun from seizing the stuff.
But will it cost more lives then those five dreadnoughts can save elsewhere? Opportunity cost goes both ways.
 
They will still be paying for it. Fleet battles are not cheap.

They'd be paying for it to satisfy their vengeance against the one who wronged them if it comes down to it, which it might not. And for a Dawi, that's an incredibly compelling argument.

The other option means leaving the aggressor that has attempted to block their project unpunished - neither through compensation from the aggressor, or otherwise. Instead, the Dawis pay the victims, as if they were responsible for the victims.

And try asking the Dawi to take responsibility, for something that in their minds, they were not responsible for. How well is that going to go, even if their King is as much a practitioner of Realpolitik as Belegar (which he might not be, for we know what such a mindset does to Belegar)? And if they were not responsible for the woes of the Empire, then why should they subsidize the Empire, Realpolitiks aside?

That's the reason why I personally think on the balance of probability, the Dawis aren't going to engage on an Umgi Cost-benefit analysis, but rather their cost-benefit analysis are going to be built on a balance of debts incurred and vengeance satiated. Best we advise the Chamberlain that there's a good chance conventional Umgi cost-benefit analysis will not necessarily be accepted by the Dawi, who are likely to make a very different calculus.
 
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@BoneyM, something I'm curious about- if Barak Varr has a fleet parked outside Marienburg, and sinks anything they put afloat and any related port facilities, would Marienburg even be capable of receiving foreign trade?
 
@BoneyM how big is Barak Varr's navy, anyway? We don't tend to think of the Dwarves as a naval power, but their ships are probably the scariest of anyone except the Druuchi's Black Arks, at least on an individual basis.
 
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Kinda coming back around on the economic arguement. Think of it like this:

The first few months of an embargo are going to hurt the empire worst and Marianburg the least, since we don't have any alternative routes in place yet, and Marianburg has stockpiles.

However, as soon as it becomes apparent that the empire is developing new options rather than cave, Marianburg undermines it's long-term position the longer the embargo goes on, as the empire reorients on a potentially permenant basis. So they'll want to wait until the maximum resources are committed, then cancel the embargo and attempt to force concessions along a different axis before the empire can pull back from it's over-extension.

Point being, the economic aid is just as much a matter of leverage as the navy, if Marianburg knows about it in advance. So I'm... Not changing, yet, but I might given more reflection.

Depending on how chaos and Greenskin reacts and on how well we manage to establish trade routes (which Marienburg will try to sabotage), I can see it very easily becoming a game of chicken that lasts for 3-5 years. But I guess that is full of uncertainty too.

Edit: Screw it, going back into neutrality, both sides have too many good arguments and there are too many unknows, I only know every option other than those 2 is worse.

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
 
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The thing is, Barak Varr is footing the bill on this canal to the tune of billions of dollars, then because of Marienburg we're going to ask them to ALSO prop up the ENTIRE EMPIRE for FIVE YEARS? On TOP of digging the canal.
This statement is a bit misleading considering it wouldn't be just Barak Varr involved in assisting the Empire. At the very least, K8P will also be involved. Also, are they the ones digging the canal? I would've thought that would be Zhufbar considering they're closer.

Really, because I seem to remember the dark elves kicking all kinds of ass.
Black Arks are probably a big factor to that.
 
This statement is a bit misleading considering it wouldn't be just Barak Varr involved in assisting the Empire. At the very least, K8P will also be involved. Also, are they the ones digging the canal? I would've thought that would be Zhufbar considering they're closer.
Both Zhufbar and Barak Varr, apparently. I assumed Barak Varr would be doing the lion's share because Byrrnoth brokered the deal and is the huge cosmopolitan trade hub, but who knows?
 
Right, but Mathilde has to believe the Dawi are likely to do this. And I haven't seen people actually arguing that the Dawis are likely to go for it , if presented with the choice of blockade breaking or compensating the Empire. I've seen people asserting that the compensation scheme is politically possible, and I've seen people arguing the Blockade is likely to happen, but no-one has actually weighed the two and asked why one would be preferred over the other by the Dawi. And yes, maybe we fear escalation, but will the Dawis make the same calculus of escalation risks?

Now, if Mathilde believes Barak Varr will not go for a blockade because Barak Varr itself will take into account Ulthuan's potential response, then the considerations of escalation makes sense. If Mathilde on the other hand believes Barak Varr is likely to escalate to Blockade Breaking, then advising the Chamberlain that the Dawis are open to compensation is advised not based on whether Mathilde thinks it's realistically possible, but what Mathilde hopes can happen.
I think the key difference between breaking the blockade and supporting the Empire through the blockade for Barak Varr really comes down to money. Not for Barak Varr, but for the Empire.

If Barak Varr acts to support the Empire, then Barak Varr will shell out a pile of money to keep the Empire limping along until the canal is done. If Barak Varr acts to break the blockade, it'll shell out a pile of money moving ships around to break the blockade, keep it broken, and maybe replace a bunch of ships after a naval battle or two with the Asur.

Both situations present massive monetary outlays for Barak Varr, but the exact material costs are very hard to pin down due to a decent number of unknown factors. What is known, is that in both cases Barak Varr stands to make a large amount of money off of the Empire sending trade out through the canal. Only, the relative amounts there aren't the same - in one case, the Empire has been suffering through 5 or more years of an embargo while in the other case that embargo was broken relatively shortly and the Empire could go back to business as usual for the rest of the time it took to build the canal.

In essence, the amount of money Barak Varr stand to gain off of the canal is based off of how much international trade the Empire has, which is itself based on the size of the Empire's internal economy. The shorter the period of the Empire being blockaded and needing to limp by on what overland trade it can manage is the less damage will be done to the Empire's economy, and therefore the more international trade it will have and the more money Barak Varr will stand to make off of the canal.

So the deciding question for Barak Varr is this: Will deploying ships to break a blockade on the Empire cost more in deployment and brinksmanship costs (potential lives lost, trade unprotected, and replacement ships needed) than they stand to gain from an economically stronger Empire compared to an Empire that's gone through a major recession?

The less likely you think brinksmanship is to produce major costs and the more economic damage you think the Empire would suffer during a 5 year blockade, the more attractive the blockade breaking action looks. Conversely, the more likely you think brinksmanship is to incur a massively expensive war and the less economic damage you believe the Empire will sustain during an embargo, the more likely it is that Barak Varr would prefer to pay a Weregild rather than take military action.

Personally, I'm very much in the camp of "A prolonged embargo would be devastating, the Asur and Dawi are unlikely to escalate, and if they do escalate aren't really in a situation where they could easily do massive damage to each other", so I support breaking the blockade - but your mileage may vary depending on your estimation and weighting of each of those factors.
 
Really, because I seem to remember the dark elves kicking all kinds of ass.
You're correct. But they're basically the only destruction factions that can really hand with the major order powers. The balance of Naval power goes something like this:
1. Ultuan
2. BDSM Elves
3. Barak Var
4. Brettonia/Araby
5. Skaven
6. Marianburg
7. Southern Realms
8. Evil Dwarves (No real power projection here though)
9. Norsca
10. Empire/ Kesliev
 
Either way, in the end we'll be playing chicken where the Empire cannot back down and the Dawi won't . Only the length of the game changes.

But if it turns into a war, we better participate at least a bit, and if it turns into an economic stalemate we better make CERTAIN the first caravan succeeds.
 
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The less likely you think brinksmanship is to produce major costs and the more economic damage you think the Empire would suffer during a 5 year blockade, the more attractive the blockade breaking action looks. Conversely, the more likely you think brinksmanship is to incur a massively expensive war and the less economic damage you believe the Empire will sustain during an embargo, the more likely it is that Barak Varr would prefer to pay a Weregild rather than take military action.

Right your logic works if the Dawi accepts that logic. But the problem from the Dawi perspective, is why should the Dawi pay a Weregild, unless they are convinced they are responsible? And are they likely to be convinced they are responsible? The situation get's much stickier, because of Dawi notions of Debts and Vengeance and honor, and those are variables I don't see those supporting compensation really addressing.
 
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Right your logic works if the Dawi accepts that logic. But the problem from the Dawi perspective, is why should the Dawi pay a Weregild, unless they are convinced they are responsible? And are they likely to be convinced they are responsible? The situation get's much stickier, because of Dawi notions of Debts and Vengeance and honor, and those are variables I don't see those supporting compensation really addressing.
Their allies are being punished for a course of action that the Dawi have taken. That's a textbook externality. Their reactions to it might differ (embodied in the 'they'd help you economically' vs 'they'd just shoot those guys for you' debate), but they'd definitely take action.
 
I'm not convinced that Marienburg would actually be willing to fight the Dawi.

They'd definitely fight the Empire, but I think they'd think twice about firing on a Dreadnought.
I am not. If they put up a blockade and then pull it down so they do not have to fight the Dawi they are effectively surrendering being the dominant naval power in the Old World. Once the Blockade goes up they cannot let their bluff be called or they loose a lot of their leverage. Not only in this negotiation but in future ones.
 
People keep talking about how the Dwarfs and Elves definitely don't want to escalate, which means they wont and ignore the defining traits of both races.

You don't reenact the Cuban missile crisis when one side can't let go of the slightest insult and the other side always insults everyone they have official contact with in every single interaction.
 
Both Zhufbar and Barak Varr, apparently. I assumed Barak Varr would be doing the lion's share because Byrrnoth brokered the deal and is the huge cosmopolitan trade hub, but who knows?
Zhufbar would probably have more mining equipment and expertise, I guess, considering the Black Water was once a big mine. Barak Varr are probably funding the work though.
 
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