- Location
- The internet
They aren't the dominant naval power in the Old World. The Empire is just trash at sea.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Florida
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Eeeeh I guess I'll switch to what I wanted in the first place.
Eeeeh I guess I'll switch to what I wanted in the first place.
lore wise Brettonia is the strongest human navy by the Ultuans reckoning. so i would put it above araby.
I would also give the empire a bit higher as well. the 2nd fleet in the sea of claws is pretty strong even if it cant help this fight.
Looks at the update talking about the Changer... is this a result of information from the dark elf prisoner?
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
Hm. So this is terrible, but the least likely to make things go from terrible to abysmal, and that is a real possibility as Marienberg is an intrigue hotbed meaning there might be cultists involved in the decision making process. Also from the Marienberg pov if the canal completes a lot of people loss their fortunes at best if not their lives meaning many of them are liable to do stupid things to stop the canal.
Also unless I'm mistake K8P has the cash to foot the bill through loans Barak Varr hence why it'd be able to capitalize on the situation.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Dame Weber resents the implication that she would do something so base as lie. Dawongr Weber concurs; lies are too akin to breaking her solemn word for her taste.
Meanwhile, Magister Weber's best attempt at a stalwart, upstanding character looks shifty as hell.
So're they, though.
- Location
- Washington
It's basically not possible that Araby has had no contact with the Dawi, at the very least their ships frequent the same seas as Barak Varr's.
neutronium95
Mad Rocketeer
- Location
- The test site
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
I'm still a bit leery of the violent option.
I'm still a bit leery of the violent option.
The situation in which the dwarfs give a pile of money/support to the Empire is one where the Empire reaches out to the dwarfs to ask them to either stop building the canal (which gets thrown out instantly) or to provide a bunch of support to help them through the embargo. I called it a Weregild because the Empire will try to present it in that light in an effort to get the dwarfs to cough up, as dwarfs are very pro paying Weregilds.
It could easily be looked at as the dwarfs giving the Empire what they asked for, as the Chamberlain is asking us in words what we think the dwarfs would do with the intent of using that to guide his actions. The dwarfs are, above all else, likely to play ball with the Empire as part of honoring their alliance - if the Empire wants money, they're much more likely to give the Empire money. If the Empire wants them to break the blockade, they're much more likely to break the blockade.
Honestly, I bet Marienburg backs down once they see the dwarven ships out there. I mean, let's play it out. Where are the Marienburg win conditions after that? If they spend a lot of money to fight the dwarven navy with mercenary ships and maintain the blockade, that doesn't actually stop the canal. What, do they think the dwarves are going to back down once some ships are sunk? Oh hell no, now it's a grudgin' and they have to complete the damn canal as a matter of principle.
Over by Winter Solstice.
Over by Winter Solstice.
- Location
- The internet
I mean, the point is the only destruction faction that can seriously contest the forces of order are the BDSM elves, and to a lesser degree the skaven. Everyone else uses a raiding doctrine except when they're snowballing under a major hero. The Chaos Dwarves would be a major threat, except they don't really have a coastline.
Or think of it like this:
If the Dwarfs try to foot the bill (in lives, time and non-surplus materials) then it will likely take at least a couple of years for Marienburg to accept their 'inevitable defeat'. Quite likely the full five years as Marenburg tries every trick they have to stop the canals and or make the Empire cave.
If the Dwarfs send a fleet then the situation will be resolved within the month. Either because Marienburg backed down (very likely) or because the Barak Varr navy blasted the river passage open with cannon fire.
- Location
- his hidden lair
I think people are overblowing this- are their warhawks in Caledor for instance who would push for a fight? Yes. But the core of the Ulthuan navy is in Eataine and Cothique. Cothique's naval presence also entails the current admiral of the Pheonix King's navy Aislinn, who's a pretty hardcore devotee of Mathlann, a loose cannon, and ruthless to boot. He's been going after the Norscan raiders, and picking fights with various Druchii dreadlords. Aislinn getting involved is the absolute worst case scenario for however unlikely it is.
On the other hand Eataine? Is the kingdom Finubar rules and has the most control over. It is also coincidentally the one that would be hit hardest by the losses in Marienburg. Finubar still isn't the kind of person who'd want to play silly buggers over it.
The Elves like Marienburg because it's easy money for them. They don't need Marienburg or depend on it. It is of minimal interest to the dominating motive for High Elf foreign policy; securing and projecting force over the entire world be it against Dark Elf, Orc, or Chaos. It isn't a military anchorage for them, or an ally they depend on, it's just easy money. Ulthuan stepped in with a few elf mages being eligible for being hired on for mercenaries last time when the Empire went back for it's clay. This isn't the Empire coming back for it's clay, it's the Empire being threatened with a massive blockade/embargo that threatens it's existence and proceeding to beat the ever loving shit out of Marienburg if it can.
On the other hand Eataine? Is the kingdom Finubar rules and has the most control over. It is also coincidentally the one that would be hit hardest by the losses in Marienburg. Finubar still isn't the kind of person who'd want to play silly buggers over it.
The Elves like Marienburg because it's easy money for them. They don't need Marienburg or depend on it. It is of minimal interest to the dominating motive for High Elf foreign policy; securing and projecting force over the entire world be it against Dark Elf, Orc, or Chaos. It isn't a military anchorage for them, or an ally they depend on, it's just easy money. Ulthuan stepped in with a few elf mages being eligible for being hired on for mercenaries last time when the Empire went back for it's clay. This isn't the Empire coming back for it's clay, it's the Empire being threatened with a massive blockade/embargo that threatens it's existence and proceeding to beat the ever loving shit out of Marienburg if it can.
that's not lore wise true. its not the money that's important to the elfs, its the easy access and influence on human politics.
that's the canon reason.
- Location
- Canada
...yeah, the more I think about this, the more confusing it gets. I mean, the decisionmakers in Marienburg have less information than we do, but surely they don't think the Dwarves will just give up partway through?
I have no idea what Marienburg's endgame is, and that's worrying. I think we need to make a discreet visit to Marienburg as soon as possible. We need information, and may need to stab a cultist in the face.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
If Marienburg interferes, all it takes is one slip up to give the Empire and the Karaz Ankor a casus belli that has a lower chance of activating the elf defense pact because they'd clearly be in the wrong.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Except it'll burn them in the Empire if they push this again. And for all that the Warhammer world is bigger than the Empire- the Empire is the principal shield in the Old World for holding against Chaos when Kislev inevitably gets Worfed.
Moreover, I'm immensely skeptical considering the whole treaty the Marienburgers have with Ulthuan is pretty much 'trade exclusivity in the Old World'. Ulthuan has an embassy in the Empire, it likely can send envoys to be feted in Brettonia whenever the hell it wants, Estalians barely truck with Marienburgers- having more dealings with Araby in terms of trade, and Tileans have a seperate trade network.
You don't back Not!Lubeck against the Not!HRE because you need Lubeck as a pipeline to maintain diplomatic contact. You don't trade exclusively with Not!Lubeck to maintain more discourse with other nations- moreover, Ulthuan has only started more openly getting involved in the Old World with Finubar's ascension to Pheonix King IIRC. You still haven't convinced me that a need to maintain diplomatic ties is what would motivate Finubar and Aislinn (because these are the real people's who's opinions matter on this one) to swing at the Empire and give the Druchii and Norscans space over this. Because Ulthuan isn't humbling Barak Varr without a big commitment.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Marienburg's endgame is "the Empire backs down" because they don't know the Empire can call on the Dwarven navy for this. They don't know this, because until this very conversation the Empire didn't know it could do so.
And having to back Marienburg against the Empire and the Karaz Ankor permanently, because the Empire is angry enough at this blackmail to eat the costs and Dwarves do not give up on projects, makes that completely worthless. Because if Marienburg is a pariah and the Empire goes out of its way to make all trade through the new canal to spite them, then Marienburg does not provide any influence.
Lets bear in mind that the reason Marienburg is blackmailing the Empire into stopping the canal is that there's no other way to stop it. Ulthuan isn't going to march a freaking army across the Empire all the way to Sylvania to siege Zhufbar, which is what would be needed to stop the construction.
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King Arthur
The Once and Future King
I know this is a weird time to ask about it, but have we done any work on an Ulgu Ascension ritual?
I'd quite like to stop aging while we are still young.
I'd quite like to stop aging while we are still young.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ok, so i'm headed to bed so at least for now this isn't about your overall point, but general question for the thread here that this mention of time brought back to my attention...does anyone have a good canon resource for how long the trip via dwarven steamship would be from barak varr to marianburg? Because my intuition just from looking at the map and going '...i think the warhammer world is supposed to be at least as big as the real one, right? so thats...going from not!Venice to not!calais the long way around, at least? with steam ships and no real dwarven or empire owned spots to stop and refuel on the way?' is that it would take months with steam ships...but i also know full well that i Do Not Know Anything about ships, so...
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
There isn't even a blockade yet. Marienburg is just threatening to start one if the canal project isn't shelved. We tell the Chamberlain about Barak Varr's willingness to smash the blockade to bits, it'll be used by diplomats. The only reason why any actual physical altercation would happen is if Marienburg decides to put greed over self-preservation and go forward with the blockade regardless of whether Dwarf Ironclads will come along and sink their ships.
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- Location
- Canada
Except that this is a Dwarven project, not an Imperial one. They're trying to twist the Empire's arm to make the Dwarves back down. Even if the Empire decided to cave, what makes them think the Dwarves will care? And what makes them think that the Dwarves will not Begrudge them for their audacity?
Guile
Having a really great time right now
'Broke' being the operative word.Right. Dwarves.
Otherwise known as honorable-stupid aliment. I guess I got a bit spoiled at working with Belegar. We broke him in so nicely.
"AND we get to stick it to some elves in the process? You know, manling, you're all right."
I'm not saying it's a good idea. But it's certainly a very dwarf idea.