Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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We're not paying Marienburg money, we're taking our economy and going to our dwarf friend's house. They get nothing from it. And when the canal is done, they never will again. And they know that. They're just trying to get us to pick a fight with them so that their elf friends will come and beat us up again.
They are trying to extort us because they don't like us facilitating someone else's economic/foreign policy. The Emperor didn't even sign off on these canals. It's at the Electoral Count level.

What do you call one nation extorting and threatening a massive economic loss because some of it's internal policy threatens it's bottom line as? They are trying to make the canals so painful to us that we'd rather keep trading and giving them the money instead.

So I resent the misstatement of my position when I had in fact explicitly acknowledged this factor. What I was saying in my posts was that this wasn't appeasement, a misconception I saw in a lot of places, and in fact see again in your most recent post. Why on earth do you think this is a Danegeld? Are you under the impression that Marienburg is getting money off of this? Because they're not! Explicitly, they're not! The economic aid from Barak Varr and Zhufbar goes to the Empire. Barak Varr and Zhufbar lose a lot of money, the Empire suffers a recession, but Marienburg gets fucking nothing. No tolls, no fees, no incidental purchases, nothing. It's not a Danegeld, it's a boycott. They want to play chicken because they think they can survive without the Empire for longer than the Empire can survive without them. And they'd be right, unless we get aid from the dwarves.
At this point the differences between a boycott and demanding appeasement are semantics. Marienburg is objectively trying to extort and coerce the Empire in blatantly harmful policies for nothing the Empire itself has even done. The Emperor didn't sign off on these canals himself, the Empire as a whole bears no responsibility for the canals. And it's still being threatened with what's tantamount to act of war with an economic attack that's going to get people killed if unaddressed. Yes, Marienburg get nothing out of it, but it's the fear of losing of what they're getting out of it (make no mistake Marienburg wants to humble and weaken the Empire as much as it can get away with while maintaining trade). This is the threats the Empire is receiving for finally developing a way to make the proverbial Dane go away.

Fair that you developed your stance more than I gave it credit for, but I still think the stance was fundamentally flawed when we acknowledge such things like the only thing that stopped Zhufbar from producing more firearms was the lack of quality powder (from our nitre) to supply them. The Dwarf's primary limitation beyond Dwarf power seems to be the high quality raw materials they need to make their quality of war kit. If the KA's wealth and ability to control trade is being used on Imperial goods, then fundamentally the KA is going to be weaker and have more trouble maintaining it's forces.
 
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So one concern with the 'they can break the blockade' option is that we might be telling him something that he already knows, and thus giving useless advice. after all he knows that Barak Varr are the ones behind this, and are the ones with the Dwarf navy.

It might be more sensible to tell him they can make up the difference in trade. Though I'm note entirely decided.

If all your advisors and experts give the same lines of advice, then that means something. Giving a concurring opinion is hardly useless.
 
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.


I'm not sure I'm convinced of either the blockade breaking or this one, but I'll vote for this one purely to be contrary, give the underdog option a chance, and hope that people with more time to watch the thread than me can figure out what the most sensible option is.
 
So one concern with the 'they can break the blockade' option is that we might be telling him something that he already knows, and thus giving useless advice. after all he knows that Barak Varr are the ones behind this, and are the ones with the Dwarf navy.

It might be more sensible to tell him they can make up the difference in trade. Though I'm note entirely decided.
Nah, this is probably one of those votes that is defining what is going on rather than being an actual IC choice. Think of it like a vote of "Someone walks into your office, it's: A) Amy, B) Bob B, C) Carla."
 
@nexuseye @HanEmpire @Ptolemy

not completely up to date, but this was posted a few hours ago:
Vote Tally
: Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy | Page 5527 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 138176-139062]
##### NetTally 3.1.0

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
No. of Votes: 99
[X] TalonofAnathrax
[X] 13th Fleet
[X] Abhorsen
[X] Achilles861
[X] Acolyte
[X] agumentic
[X] Akasha
[X] Andmeuths
[X] Andres110
[X] Angelform
[X] Armok
[X] ArvisPresley
[X] Ashmaker
[X] Astro Ambulance
[X] Avoozl
[X] Briefvoice
[X] cheesyme
[X] Chiperninerm
[X] ConfusedCanuck
[X] dacsan
[x] Damian45
[X] DarknessSmiles
[X] Deathbybunnies
[X] Deathwings
[X] Delwgun
[X] DrachenEngel
[X] DragonParadox
[X] Drucchi
[X] DXCS
[X] Elwyn
[X] Erehwon
[X] EVA-Saiyajin
[X] fictionfan
[X] Glau
[X] Guisarme
[X] HanEmpire
[X] HavocKeeper
[X] HebrideanStarfis
[X] HidCyan
[X] Horium
[X] Hyborem
[X] incama
[X] Inferno67
[X] In_lurk_shadow
[X] Ithuriel
[X] Jyn Ryvia
[X] kfrar
[X] Kornet
[X] Legionman
[X] LeMat
[X] Loket
[X] LonelyWolf999
[X] LordEdric
[X] Lost Egos
[X] Luminous
[X] MacroDaemon
[X] me.me.here
[X] minorred
[x] MiracleGrow
[X] mmgaballah
[X] MonkeyTypewriter
[X] MooseHowl
[X] nat_401
[X] Negation
[X] Night_stalker
[X] ninjafish
[X] Not A Pipe
[X] Nurgle
[X] Oshha
[X] Parzival95
[X] Ptolemy
[X] pucflek
[X] Rafin
[X] Redshirt Army
[X] reignonyrparade
[X] ReImagined
[X] Retrueno
[X] Robotninja
[X] Rui
[x] silentorphan
[X] Sir Bidoof
[X] Sir_Travelsalot
[x] Skyborn.12
[X] Spartan492
[X] Speaker4thesilen
[X] spiritualatheist
[X] storryeater
[X] strauss
[X] tapkomet
[X] Tasoli
[X] Tealg
[X] Thebigpieman
[X] TheWoo
[X] Thomasfoolery
[X] TotallyNotEvil
[X] Trickster314
[X] UniqueName
[X] Wing101
[X] Zero Gravitas

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
No. of Votes: 68
[X] das_slash
[X] Abby Normal
[X] Aranfan
[X] Asheram
[X] Axel Fones
[X] AzuraNyx
[X] Bear Templar
[X] BeepSmile
[X] BelligerentGnu
[X] Blackshard
[X] Bothan
[X] buli-buli
[X] BurnNote
[X] Candesce
[X] Chimeraguard
[X] chocolote12
[X] CtrlAltSuppr
[X] ctulhuslp
[X] Derpmind
[X] DiceOfStupidity
[X] Doctor Elsewhere
[X] Eldon
[X] Fanhunter696
[X] Ganurath
[X] Garlak
[X] Gingganz
[X] HanEmpire
[X] Hex123
[X] Historyman14
[X] Horologer
[X] Humbaba
[X] Hydroplatypus
[X] ichypa
[X] Kliden
[X] knight_enemy
[X] LotusPocus
[X] Lupercal
[X] Mopman43
[X] Mortenkam
[X] Neptune
[X] nexuseye
[X] Nickan
[X] No7sHere
[X] NuclearConsensus
[X] NukeDaSun
[X] Omegahugger
[X] Ordis
[X] Pempelune
[X] picklepikkl
[X] Prospalz
[X] PurposefulZephyr
[X] QuarkBeast
[X] Rakuhn
[X] Saidoro
[X] Shard
[X] Shinji117
[X] SuperSonicSound
[X] TaliesinSkye
[X] The Dave
[X] thisisinsane
[X] TimEd
[X] Travler66
[X] tryingtobewitty
[X] Varano
[X] Vebyast
[X] Weird Guy
[X] Zedman7054
[X] zxzx24

[X] No, but they would fight beside you
No. of Votes: 5
[X] TalonofAnathrax
[X] LonelyWolf999
[X] Luminous
[X] Speaker4thesilen
[X] Uhtread

[X] I don't know
No. of Votes: 2
[X] maximorph
[X] In_lurk_shadow

[X] No, they cannot be dissuaded
No. of Votes: 1
[X] In_lurk_shadow

[X] Write in: I see two possibilities, either we convince them to make up the trade or they break the blockade. It could swing either way, and which way is best depends on how Ulthum will react, which I don't know. Tell me which you prefer and I will try to swing it that way.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] thisisinsane


Total No. of Voters: 168

Also my multiquote/draft copy paste completely failed, please ignore if you saw the previous version xD
 
They are trying to extort us because they don't like us facilitating someone else's economic/foreign policy. The Emperor didn't even sign off on these canals. It's at the Electoral Count level.

What do you call one nation extorting and threatening a massive economic loss because some of it's internal policy threatens it's bottom line as? They are trying to make the canals so painful to us that we'd rather keep trading and giving them the money instead.
It's bad, but it's a different type of bad than a Danegeld. Paying them money to make them go away and losing money because they went away are different things. Sucking it up and taking a short term hit to your economy while you decouple your trade from their foreign policy sucks, but they don't benefit from it either, they're just hoping it hurts us worse.
 
Ok, so i'm headed to bed so at least for now this isn't about your overall point, but general question for the thread here that this mention of time brought back to my attention...does anyone have a good canon resource for how long the trip via dwarven steamship would be from barak varr to marianburg? Because my intuition just from looking at the map and going '...i think the warhammer world is supposed to be at least as big as the real one, right? so thats...going from not!Venice to not!calais the long way around, at least? with steam ships and no real dwarven or empire owned spots to stop and refuel on the way?' is that it would take months with steam ships...but i also know full well that i Do Not Know Anything about ships, so... :p
The first real-world deep-water steamships that would be the equivalent of the Barak Varr navy could reach around 8-9 knots, which would let them do transatlantic crossings inside 2 weeks. Exact details of Warhammer geography are all but impossible to come by, but the equivalent in Earth Geography would be going from the Black Sea out the Mediterranean and up to the Baltic, which would be a journey of approximately equal distance (as measured by walking my fingers across google maps, so grain of salt and all) as a transatlantic crossing if not quite the same conditions.

Even leaving generous amounts of room for the actual beating up on Marienburg's navy, any encounters along the way, a decent chunk of time to organize things, and a fair amount of flextime - Angelform's flippant estimate of a month for the resolution isn't all that far off. There might be a couple more months involved depending on how much diplomatic squawking there is before push comes to shove, but Barak Varr's navy has very good strategic speed for the theatres they operate in and the timescales humans are used to.
 
Breaking the blockade would most likely involve destroying their navy and the infrastructure that allows Marienburg to block the river, and probably anchoring a Dreadnought or five off the coast in case they get any funny ideas about rebuilding.
I'd also like to point out this bit:

Ulthuan's treaty with Marienburg makes them money, so they're happy it exists in its current position. But at the same time, they do not want to get into a war with the Empire.

The sanest reading of them being vague is that they are currently unwilling to fight on behalf of Marienburg (likely due to Finubar being in charge) and don't want to be caught in a lie. If they were happy to support Marienburg militarily they would say so, as it would make such a war less likely.

It is possible that Ulthuan ha military obligations to Marienburg via treaty, but such would be defensive in nature. They will not aid them in setting up a blockade (except monetarily, perhaps) and they absolutely will not get into a war with Barak Varr, and thus the Karaz Ankor, enforcing such a blockade. Not whilst Finubar is on the throne, and probably not otherwise.
I'm just sitting here pondering if we should send some people directly to the elves. Breaking up the Marienburg monopoly would be a good thing for the Elves as they can set their own prices for the goods they produce. It would benefit all, unless there's some politics at play and we've got some very influential elves in Marienburg itself who act as middlemen to all the trade coming into the city.
Most of the Empire's rivers flow through Marienburg. Them closing their gates is effectively a blockade.
The thing is, Barak Varr is footing the bill on this canal to the tune of billions of dollars, then because of Marienburg we're going to ask them to ALSO prop up the ENTIRE EMPIRE for FIVE YEARS? On TOP of digging the canal.

They'd be entirely within their rights to be like 'Welp, see ya' and drop the project. They probably wouldn't because I can't imagine dwarves like leaving things half-finished. But you know the Empire would in a hot second.
Okay, caught up on the discussion, I think the big mistake being made here isn't a decision of whether attack or not is right.
The big mistake is timelines. I'm seeing wildly off base timelines in play here.

Blockade Breaking
-Barak Varr has to sail significant numbers of Ironclads, powerful ships which are expensive to operate, and slow to travel, around basically the entire continent. You're talking about a Norway to Constantinople equivalent sail here, this will take months. Possibly a year if you include preparing the ammunition, food, and fuel needed to get there and fight off the gribblies along the way, and then camp there for several years. During this time the Empire is still embargoed.

-Ironclads cannot be beaten on the open sea by Marienburg naval power alone. However, this changes dramatically if they are assaulting the city's gates proper, as poorer quality fixed emplacement cannon can damage and match Ironclads in range, as can wizards casting from the city. A Comet of Cassandora would be bad news for an ironclad unless they came with a Runesmith complement, which would cost extra to put a runesmith on effectively garrison duty instead of doing research or forging.
--This essentially means that the Ironclads must either tolerate being harassed by significant attacks for the full period or, the far more expedient means of leveling any structure in the city which could launch a significant attack.
---It is likely, though not certain that the elf embassy would be such a structure.
----It is possible, but not certain that there may be elves in residence who may try to take a potshot at the invaders, because they have friends whose livelihoods are being reduced to kibble by dwarves.
----It is possible, but not certain that some of the dwarves on the ironclads may take an opportunity to take a shot at the elf embassy. While dwarves as a whole are disciplined, they can be extremely impulsive on certain things.

Therefore, building a Blockade Breaking decision tree:
-Marienburg threatens embargo.
--Imperials fold and pressure the Karaz Ankor. This might work but is unacceptable, because it lets Marienburg know that this works.
--Imperials threaten Barak Varr intervention.
---Marienburg folds. This assumes that Marienburg actually believes the threat, believes that Ulthuan would not back them, and believes that they can't beat ironclads from a position of all possible advantage on home waters. This is possible but unlikely, too many pride points in play.
---Marienburg calls bluff.
----Barak Varr does not back up the threat. Possible, but unlikely, if something they did caused an ally to be attacked they'd likely back it up.
----Barak Varr backs up the threat.
-----Ulthuan lends overt aid immediately. Possible but unlikely, because this straight out goes to bad end since Thorgrim HAS to back it up.
-----Segments of Ulthuan lends c/overt aid immediately. Possible that at least one young idiot said "meh I can take them". This incidentally means the Blockade Breaking could fail, because even if they don't destroy the ironclads, the journey is long enough that elven raiders and harassment can render it logistically infeasible to actually park a fleet of ironclads at Marienburg for five years. Ironclads are tough but throwing storms at them can delay their travel massively. In the meantime the Empire is still blockaded.
-----Ulthuan does not immediately intervene, Ironclads reach Marienburg.
------Marienburg folds when it comes to actual violence at their door, once the ironclads shred whatever fleet comes out. This is the ideal blockade breaking outcome. The ironclads just need to park there.
------Marienburg doubles down and fights back.
-------Ironclads are rebuffed because Marienburg had invested centuries of prep into naval defenses. I'm not sure how plausible, but it could happen if they had the right wizards(they have wizards) and the dosh to build super towers(they have dosh)
-------Ironclads just clear the physical obstructions and act as occupying navy and they're cowed. This requires Marienburgers being sensible.
-------Ironclads clear the physical obstructions and they keep fighting. So Ironclads start reducing the city to stop that.
--------Ironclads do so without interacting with the Ulthuan embassy in any way. Victory for the Empire and the Karaz Ankor.
--------Ironclads attack Ulthuan embassy on purpose or by accident, or Ulthuan embassy attacks ironclads on purpose or by accident. The order doesn't matter. This is how you get a formal insult to Ulthuan that they MUST answer, and which Barak Varr is never going to back down from.


Trade Mitigation:
-Marienburg threatens embargo
--Imperials fold and pressure the Karaz Ankor. This might work but is unacceptable, because it lets Marienburg know that this works.
--Empire informs Marienburg they never needed you anyway. Marienburg starts suffering major economic losses. Empire starts suffering significant economic losses. Karaz Ankor commits economic resources to propping up the Empire's economy(this doesn't mean making a loss immediately, but it does greatly reduce their ability to commit to or respond to anything else).
---Marienburg leaders backs down because their domestic audience will crucify them for the losses. Refer RL plague shutdown reactions by corps.
---Marienburg domestic audience is fine with losing money across the board for five years. Wait out the full five year period, massive economic damage and vulnerability.
---Marienburg domestic audience is not fine with losing money, current leadership is eventually ousted and replaced with less stupid leaders. Wait for several years to settle this out, before embargo ends.
---Marienburg goes with covert operations to force the Empire to fold before they are forced to fold. Shadow war. Somebody will be left without pants and it ain't Dragomas.
 
Where can I read about him? The wiki seemed uncooperative.
The wiki page on his flying fortress contains most of the lore on him.
warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Fozzrik's Flying Fortress

"The omens are true, my lord, the oracles are correct; after a thousand years, Fozzrik's Flying Fastness has returned to the Old World. Wrought by magical artifice long lost to scholars of the arcane and coveted by emperors and kings the world over, the Flying Fastness is a sight to behold. A...
However, there's a bit more lore in Storm of Magic that's not in the wiki. Here it is from page 54.



Fozzrik, as it turns out, was rather prolific if "many" Old World cities worth the title of 'city' were built around his stuff. Given the importance of cities, Fozzrik's had a surprisingly large impact on the history of the Old World given that he's just one dude.
 
[X] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.

I imagine that Marienburg would take one look at the Karaz Ankor gearing up for war against it--backed by the might of the Imperial Colleges of Magic and at least two Imperial Provinces, and shit itself.
 
Okay, caught up on the discussion, I think the big mistake being made here isn't a decision of whether attack or not is right.
The big mistake is timelines. I'm seeing wildly off base timelines in play here.

Blockade Breaking
-Barak Varr has to sail significant numbers of Ironclads, powerful ships which are expensive to operate, and slow to travel, around basically the entire continent. You're talking about a Norway to Constantinople equivalent sail here, this will take months. Possibly a year if you include preparing the ammunition, food, and fuel needed to get there and fight off the gribblies along the way, and then camp there for several years. During this time the Empire is still embargoed.

-Ironclads cannot be beaten on the open sea by Marienburg naval power alone. However, this changes dramatically if they are assaulting the city's gates proper, as poorer quality fixed emplacement cannon can damage and match Ironclads in range, as can wizards casting from the city. A Comet of Cassandora would be bad news for an ironclad unless they came with a Runesmith complement, which would cost extra to put a runesmith on effectively garrison duty instead of doing research or forging.
--This essentially means that the Ironclads must either tolerate being harassed by significant attacks for the full period or, the far more expedient means of leveling any structure in the city which could launch a significant attack.
---It is likely, though not certain that the elf embassy would be such a structure.
----It is possible, but not certain that there may be elves in residence who may try to take a potshot at the invaders, because they have friends whose livelihoods are being reduced to kibble by dwarves.
----It is possible, but not certain that some of the dwarves on the ironclads may take an opportunity to take a shot at the elf embassy. While dwarves as a whole are disciplined, they can be extremely impulsive on certain things.

Therefore, building a Blockade Breaking decision tree:
-Marienburg threatens embargo.
--Imperials fold and pressure the Karaz Ankor. This might work but is unacceptable, because it lets Marienburg know that this works.
--Imperials threaten Barak Varr intervention.
---Marienburg folds. This assumes that Marienburg actually believes the threat, believes that Ulthuan would not back them, and believes that they can't beat ironclads from a position of all possible advantage on home waters. This is possible but unlikely, too many pride points in play.
---Marienburg calls bluff.
----Barak Varr does not back up the threat. Possible, but unlikely, if something they did caused an ally to be attacked they'd likely back it up.
----Barak Varr backs up the threat.
-----Ulthuan lends overt aid immediately. Possible but unlikely, because this straight out goes to bad end since Thorgrim HAS to back it up.
-----Segments of Ulthuan lends c/overt aid immediately. Possible that at least one young idiot said "meh I can take them". This incidentally means the Blockade Breaking could fail, because even if they don't destroy the ironclads, the journey is long enough that elven raiders and harassment can render it logistically infeasible to actually park a fleet of ironclads at Marienburg for five years. Ironclads are tough but throwing storms at them can delay their travel massively. In the meantime the Empire is still blockaded.
-----Ulthuan does not immediately intervene, Ironclads reach Marienburg.
------Marienburg folds when it comes to actual violence at their door, once the ironclads shred whatever fleet comes out. This is the ideal blockade breaking outcome. The ironclads just need to park there.
------Marienburg doubles down and fights back.
-------Ironclads are rebuffed because Marienburg had invested centuries of prep into naval defenses. I'm not sure how plausible, but it could happen if they had the right wizards(they have wizards) and the dosh to build super towers(they have dosh)
-------Ironclads just clear the physical obstructions and act as occupying navy and they're cowed. This requires Marienburgers being sensible.
-------Ironclads clear the physical obstructions and they keep fighting. So Ironclads start reducing the city to stop that.
--------Ironclads do so without interacting with the Ulthuan embassy in any way. Victory for the Empire and the Karaz Ankor.
--------Ironclads attack Ulthuan embassy on purpose or by accident, or Ulthuan embassy attacks ironclads on purpose or by accident. The order doesn't matter. This is how you get a formal insult to Ulthuan that they MUST answer, and which Barak Varr is never going to back down from.


Trade Mitigation:
-Marienburg threatens embargo
--Imperials fold and pressure the Karaz Ankor. This might work but is unacceptable, because it lets Marienburg know that this works.
--Empire informs Marienburg they never needed you anyway. Marienburg starts suffering major economic losses. Empire starts suffering significant economic losses. Karaz Ankor commits economic resources to propping up the Empire's economy(this doesn't mean making a loss immediately, but it does greatly reduce their ability to commit to or respond to anything else).
---Marienburg leaders backs down because their domestic audience will crucify them for the losses. Refer RL plague shutdown reactions by corps.
---Marienburg domestic audience is fine with losing money across the board for five years. Wait out the full five year period, massive economic damage and vulnerability.
---Marienburg domestic audience is not fine with losing money, current leadership is eventually ousted and replaced with less stupid leaders. Wait for several years to settle this out, before embargo ends.
---Marienburg goes with covert operations to force the Empire to fold before they are forced to fold. Shadow war. Somebody will be left without pants and it ain't Dragomas.
Marienburg has wizards? Unless you're talking about Elves, in which case can't the Emperor hand the Elven diplomat an ultimatum saying "Marienburg is blockading the Empire for nothing it has done. Either you are neutral in this conflict or you are picking a side. Choose."
@BoneyM : Why isn't the Emperor considering handing the Elves an ultimatum about them either remaining neutral or picking a side? Considering that Marienburg is clearly generating a causus belli and to side with Marienburg would be an act of war against the Empire?
It won't be backed by the Colleges of Magic. The Colleges are currently busy in Sylvania.
Not all of them, just the battle wizards. And at this point, the Colleges can divert some of the battle wizards away from Slyvannia--I'm pretty sure all of the major players there have been killed, or else they're in hiding and having all of the battle wizards there won't be that helpful anyway.
 
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What exactly is happening in Sylvania anyways?

I thought most of the vampires were killed by now or at least the more active ones were. How hard can it be to kill some vampires anyway?
 
So, I'm reaching the part with Kazador's approximately 50,000 children and, uh is the reason the Dawi race as a whole has procreation problems because Karak Azul somehow has 95% of their species total fertility?

Them being able to flat out have more kids then all the other Dawi would do a lot to explain how they stayed so strong as completely cut off from the rest of "literally everyone not trying to murder them" as they are.
 
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[X] No, but they could help break the blockade

#FuckMarienburg2020

I have to say, I would really prefer an option that isn't appeasement, dealing with it, or dealing with it. Be a real shame if Marienburg's river chains and gates were to rust away in the night, orders to their military were to go astray, and their ne'er do wells in the city itself were to rob a number of ambitious targets. I bet Ranald would have a giggle over the merchant hucksters suddenly being a few vaults short.

@BoneyM , would a more stereo typically Grey Wizard approach not be something we could recommend here, or would it be more something that would be carried out in conjunction with whatever answer we give?

Honestly the idea of taking the hit to trade, but proceeding to compensate that hit with gold stolen from their own vaults is appealing. As far as I know, Marienburg really has no answer to the Colleges, and I don't think the Elves are going to lower themselves to loaning mages to guard their pockets.
 
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