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If anything, the one thing I don't like about the gauntlet (and the reason I prefer the Badlands) is that it also feels temporary, the Karak will eventually have to deal with Black Crag in a more permanent fashion (sooner is better) so they will only get used to a new source of food before it dries up, and that might feel like the beginning of a pattern.

If possible, next turn we should also suggest to them that they might want to begin forays into the Badlands, both to diversify their food source and to show the advantages of our alliance (making a proper road for them to use, allowing them to hunt further than they usually would).
 
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If anything, the one thing I don't like about the gauntlet (and the reason I prefer the Badlands) is that it also feels temporary, the Karak will eventually have to deal with Black Crag in a more permanent fashion (sooner is better) so they will only get used to a new source of food before is dries up, and that might feel like the beginning of a pattern.

If possible, next turn we should also suggest to them that they might want to begin forays into the Badlands, both to diversify their food source and to show the advantages of our alliance (making a proper road for them to use, allowing them to hunt further than they usually would).
The fact that it's temporary is a feature, not a bug. As the We continue their education and continue to develop as a member of the Karak rather than a solitary entity, they may eventually develop stronger opinions on what they want to do with their life. As such, giving them an option that's good for everyone now and that will by necessity require a renegotiation of terms in the future allows us to construct a win-win situation now while also respecting both the We's present and future agency.

And regarding diversification:
Diversification is one of those things that's going to take time for them to grasp. Their bone-deep understanding is that there's The Way To Get Food and though that Way can change, doing multiple at once wouldn't make sense. One way must be better, so that is the Way. Just do that.
It's going to be a few years before the We are interested in that.

I understand we all love our spider-babies, but the We's a big spider-hivemind now, you know? We don't need to baby them, we've already laid the groundwork for their future good treatment within the Karak and their growth as a person. Trust them to handle themself for a few peaceful years, you know?
 
Runic magic is a lot closer to divine casting than anything else, if I recall correctly.
Naw, when Kragg explained a bit of it, runic magic is a lot closer to programming than anything, except the structure being programmed is done entirely blind and it must execute perfectly on first compile.

The divine part may augment it, but its vastly more academic than Wind magic, in that it is perfectly consistent as long as it is perfectly done.
I assume the We's natural exoskeleton is chitinous enough to be pretty OK protection as-is. Plus, they seem to mostly practice ambush predation, rather than any sort of slugfest or straight-up fight.
Well to be fair basically no natural predators opt for straight slugfests unless they significantly outpower the target. Needing to heal at all makes a hunt cost more energy and spends a longer period vulnerable than the hunt's worth in food energy.

Critters which go for slugfests in nature tend to be prey animals, since they don't get to choose not to fight, they might as well make it as undesirable to hunt them as possible, with boars being the iconic example: even if you deal a fatal blow it'd keep going long enough to kill you back before it dies.

But the We are intelligent, so they probably would be able to learn how to fight straight slugfests decently, if given room to experiment and learn, and an abundance of food to soak losses with.
I've actually got something pretty good for this I thought up yesterday that could maintain them as an offensive force; renting out We warrior forms as mercenaries.

Now if the We can just choose to make only web weavers probably not worth it for them personally, but if they say just biologically produce so many warriors per web weaver then they might as well do something with them and I think this is a good possibility.

Now, the exact model will depend on a number of factors, in this case for simplicity just assume that the average warrior has a 12 years natural lifespan, with 1 year of maturing.

So there's a clutch of 100 warriors all born, they just from being We have second-hand experience from the hive mind, plus basic commands and laws (so they can't be bought by and used by bandits for example), reach maturity and have 11 years lifespan left.

The We effectively rents these warriors out on up to a maximum 10 year contract for use as either ambushers, for example set them loose on a forest and say 'kill all beastmen you find, survivors regroup and return in one week', or they can be used as basic fodder in an army. Once the We are more training in and understand war I believe freely expendable and obedient giant spiders will be very useful for the forces of Order and it's not like the We care about them so long as they can exchange them for equal or greater value.

These We if not killed working as mercenaries can either be traded in back to the main We hive they were rented from for a portion of their cost back once the job is done, or once they have 1 year remaining in their lifespan (or when their contract ends) then they will attempt to return to the main We hive of their own accord, which will not only give that Hive back some biomass (they eat their own) but also pass the experience these veterans have to the hive mind for the improvement of future mercenary We.

These We mercenaries depending on their number may also be able to hunt for themselves, hunt extra for themselves and any non-We army they're fighting with or if there's many may need to be supplied food for, that's down to the contract owners.

Now if such a group of We would result in a second We hive mind then there could also be a clause in the contract where if say only so many of the We remain, however many is needed for this We to live, then the contract would also be broken (e.g. if an army rents out 200 We, if they are depleted to only 30 or something left they leave and return to the main hive). Or if a split We cannot rejoin the progenitor We then they could act as sort of partners, the Warrior We working as both a protector for the Economy We and as a mercenary walking army in downtime with some profits going to Economy We in exchange for being supplied with the warriors Economy We produces (....huh, this is reminding me of Worm Entities, interesting parallel).

Course this all depends on how the We work but I think it could be neat, working to benefit the We economically via money from mercenary contracts, keeps them as having a strong warrior caste from the mercenary experience and benefits the forces of Order.
The We have a range limit, its not SMALL, but it'd mean the We going on mercenary jobs should be hired as a singular hive.
If anything, the one thing I don't like about the gauntlet (and the reason I prefer the Badlands) is that it also feels temporary, the Karak will eventually have to deal with Black Crag in a more permanent fashion (sooner is better) so they will only get used to a new source of food before is dries up, and that might feel like the beginning of a pattern.

If possible, next turn we should also suggest to them that they might want to begin forays into the Badlands, both to diversify their food source and to show the advantages of our alliance (making a proper road for them to use, allowing them to hunt further than they usually would).
The We don't understand diversification yet. Thats the whole point of this exercise. If you assign them a food source they're going to try to use it indefinitely.

Thats why the Gauntlet isn't a bad idea, when it stops working theres plenty of untapped wildlife out there, and their population would likely have grown to the point where the We will need two sources for stability.

No reason to turn down the orcs sending free food after all.
 
Yeah, i know they don't understand diversification yet, that's why i wanna suggest it, get them used to the idea.
If the concept were not too alien for them to grasp right now, Mathilde is competent enough that she would bring it up herself, right now, in the conversation she is having with the We about the different options available to them.

As we have not been given the option to recommend that they diversify, we can surmise that the concept of diversification is currently too alien for the We to understand, and that they will require further education before they properly understand the concept. As in, more education than just telling them that diversifying your food supply is neat.

As we are not handling their education, it is 110% not our job to try educating them on the concept ourselves.
 
My thoughts on turn planning:

I am very open to the idea of delaying the publication of one of the lexicons for six months in order to gain an action. We would effectively be paying a six month delay in publishing, plus whatever favors we'd get from a published paper next turn, for an extra AP, which is a very solid trade in my opinion.

I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea that we should do the Khazalid tranlation first, just to give Belegar as much Dwarf cred as possible when the rest of the dwarves find out he commissioned this very un-dwarfy idea.

That locks down Max, Serenity, and one of our personal actions.



So far, we've interacted with Qretch at least once each turn during the translation project, so keeping him sane didn't "cost" us any actions. That will change very soon, since we're moving on to other projects, so we need to dedicate an action to giving him other means to stay sane.

(Does the fact that I considered killing him now that he's expended his usefulness, just to save a single AP, make me a bad person?)



We know for a fact that the Waystone project is going to be a huge deal, and even if work doesn't start on it any time soon, this is the sort of thing we need to prepare for. Plus, we basically got an order to brush up on Waystones from Algard. So that's the third AP tied up.



The AV faction has been rumbling a lot lately, so any plan with AV will have a significant advantage over plans without it. Of the available AV actions, I'd suggest doing as much as possible ourselves before bringing the Dwarves into things, since that'll reflect best on us.

[ ] Investigate the exact circumstances required to induce a transformation.

This seems like the best option for that. Nothing else in the plan is particularly special, so it'll probably get the Gambler.



That leaves the Overwork action.

A lot of people have brought up that the initial scouting of Drazh can be carried out by others, which is a fairly valid point. I do very much want to do it, but we may have more time on future turns.

Drazh aside, my personal preferences for this would be:

1). Practical Diplomacy

This should be done fairly soon. It will be critical in dealing with Ulrican politics, it will help us try to set up the Waystone project, it can help us deal with Belegar's increasing crisis with Thorgrim, it fills a gap in our skillset towards Lord Magister, and it counts as elf-land prep.

2). Power Stone Creation

This is additional instruction in magical theory as it relates to super-concentrated magic, which is likely relevant to Waystone handling, it's probably key to a lot of AV research, and it's necessary to create some really swanky magic items personally.



The EIC action getting us a Rumor Mill is another step towards Lord Magister status, and it makes sense to start at a more broad scope before installing more dedicated spying apparatus.

Johann should start work on his own Lord Magister thesis, once we publish the lexicons.

The ducklings can respond to whatever comes up.



Summary:

[MAX] Take Dictation (Khazalid Lexicon)
[JOHANN] Examine Skryre Notes
[DUCK] FREE
[EIC] Rumor Mill
[M1] Dictate (Khazalid Lexicon)
[M2] Give Qretch Stuff To Do Without Us
[M3] College Waystones 101
[M4] Basic AV Transformations
-[COIN] Gambler
[OVERWORK] Practical Diplomacy
[SERENITY] Reikspiel Lexicon (1/2)

Trying to include full Queekish in one turn is going to be difficult, and require some sacrifices - especially since Polyglot wasn't chosen, so I'm currently operating on the assumption that learning the spoken language will take two "study" actions.

The actual publishing actions remain the same as in the basic plan.



We should teach Wolf to talk as part of this plan. It's useful in general, so we'd do it at some point anyway, and having additional access to the scent based components of spoken Queekish will greatly improve our chances of actually learning the language in six months.



An action to learn spoken Queekish from Qretch, of course. It's worth considering exactly what lie with the Deciever would be best to actually convince him to teach us, mind you - he's still loyal to the Under-Empire, and we only got the written language out of him through divine intervention.



A second language learning action. Probably from Qretch again - if it was easy to get the language from recovered human slaves, it would have happened already.



And the Overwork action... probably a tossup between getting Qretch ready for long-term imprisonment, or the AV crowd going rabid and voting to execute him and spend the time on snekjuice instead.



Summary:

[MAX] Take Dictation (Khazalid Lexicon)
[JOHANN] Examine Skryre Notes
[DUCK] FREE
[EIC] Rumor Mill
[M1] Dictate (Khazalid Lexicon)
[M2] Teach Wolf To Talk
[M3] Spoken Queekish 1
-[COIN] Deciever
[M4] Spoken Queekish 2
[OVERWORK] AV Transformations / Let Qretch Live
[SERENITY] Reikspiel Lexicon (1/2)
 
My thoughts on turn planning:

I am very open to the idea of delaying the publication of one of the lexicons for six months in order to gain an action. We would effectively be paying a six month delay in publishing, plus whatever favors we'd get from a published paper next turn, for an extra AP, which is a very solid trade in my opinion.

I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea that we should do the Khazalid tranlation first, just to give Belegar as much Dwarf cred as possible when the rest of the dwarves find out he commissioned this very un-dwarfy idea.

That locks down Max, Serenity, and one of our personal actions.



So far, we've interacted with Qretch at least once each turn during the translation project, so keeping him sane didn't "cost" us any actions. That will change very soon, since we're moving on to other projects, so we need to dedicate an action to giving him other means to stay sane.

(Does the fact that I considered killing him now that he's expended his usefulness, just to save a single AP, make me a bad person?)



We know for a fact that the Waystone project is going to be a huge deal, and even if work doesn't start on it any time soon, this is the sort of thing we need to prepare for. Plus, we basically got an order to brush up on Waystones from Algard. So that's the third AP tied up.



The AV faction has been rumbling a lot lately, so any plan with AV will have a significant advantage over plans without it. Of the available AV actions, I'd suggest doing as much as possible ourselves before bringing the Dwarves into things, since that'll reflect best on us.



This seems like the best option for that. Nothing else in the plan is particularly special, so it'll probably get the Gambler.



That leaves the Overwork action.

A lot of people have brought up that the initial scouting of Drazh can be carried out by others, which is a fairly valid point. I do very much want to do it, but we may have more time on future turns.

Drazh aside, my personal preferences for this would be:

1). Practical Diplomacy

This should be done fairly soon. It will be critical in dealing with Ulrican politics, it will help us try to set up the Waystone project, it can help us deal with Belegar's increasing crisis with Thorgrim, it fills a gap in our skillset towards Lord Magister, and it counts as elf-land prep.

2). Power Stone Creation

This is additional instruction in magical theory as it relates to super-concentrated magic, which is likely relevant to Waystone handling, it's probably key to a lot of AV research, and it's necessary to create some really swanky magic items personally.



The EIC action getting us a Rumor Mill is another step towards Lord Magister status, and it makes sense to start at a more broad scope before installing more dedicated spying apparatus.

Johann should start work on his own Lord Magister thesis, once we publish the lexicons.

The ducklings can respond to whatever comes up.



Summary:

[MAX] Take Dictation (Khazalid Lexicon)
[JOHANN] Examine Skryre Notes
[DUCK] FREE
[EIC] Rumor Mill
[M1] Dictate (Khazalid Lexicon)
[M2] Give Qretch Stuff To Do Without Us
[M3] College Waystones 101
[M4] Basic AV Transformations
-[COIN] Gambler
[OVERWORK] Practical Diplomacy
[SERENITY] Reikspiel Lexicon (1/2)

Trying to include full Queekish in one turn is going to be difficult, and require some sacrifices - especially since Polyglot wasn't chosen, so I'm currently operating on the assumption that learning the spoken language will take two "study" actions.

The actual publishing actions remain the same as in the basic plan.



We should teach Wolf to talk as part of this plan. It's useful in general, so we'd do it at some point anyway, and having additional access to the scent based components of spoken Queekish will greatly improve our chances of actually learning the language in six months.



An action to learn spoken Queekish from Qretch, of course. It's worth considering exactly what lie with the Deciever would be best to actually convince him to teach us, mind you - he's still loyal to the Under-Empire, and we only got the written language out of him through divine intervention.



A second language learning action. Probably from Qretch again - if it was easy to get the language from recovered human slaves, it would have happened already.



And the Overwork action... probably a tossup between getting Qretch ready for long-term imprisonment, or the AV crowd going rabid and voting to execute him and spend the time on snekjuice instead.



Summary:

[MAX] Take Dictation (Khazalid Lexicon)
[JOHANN] Examine Skryre Notes
[DUCK] FREE
[EIC] Rumor Mill
[M1] Dictate (Khazalid Lexicon)
[M2] Teach Wolf To Talk
[M3] Spoken Queekish 1
-[COIN] Deciever
[M4] Spoken Queekish 2
[OVERWORK] AV Transformations / Let Qretch Live
[SERENITY] Reikspiel Lexicon (1/2)
My only concern with delaying translation is that we are sitting on relatively fresh Eshin intelligence documents that become less reliable and useful the longer they sit.
 
My only concern with delaying translation is that we are sitting on relatively fresh Eshin intelligence documents that become less reliable and useful the longer they sit.

Yeah, that's a strong argument for getting the Reikspiel version out first. In the end, it'll probably come down to how good Max's Khazalid is - if he's not super comfortable writing a whole book in it, then the plan defaults to him doing Reikspiel instead.
 
Well, see, the problem with THIS argument is that while there is value to be had for the Dwarves, most people seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong) voting for the Gauntlet because it's good for the We, not the Dwarves. It keeps their current life style so we and We don't need to be concerned with the repercussions of the hunter caste going obsolete, it supplies them with easy pickings thus ensuring they get plenty to eat, and it keeps them in view of the Dwarves visibly killing things, helping their image. True, there's the issue of us knowing that they'll likely credit the Dwarves and that being inconsistent with the way we value things, but it's not inconsistent with the way the We value things, so I find it hard to buy the argument that it's a betrayal of trust. A real betrayal of trust would be making them dependant on a good source we don't even control, like with the bounty system.

Huh... you actually changed my mind...

brb, editting my vote
 
My thoughts on turn planning:

I am very open to the idea of delaying the publication of one of the lexicons for six months in order to gain an action. We would effectively be paying a six month delay in publishing, plus whatever favors we'd get from a published paper next turn, for an extra AP, which is a very solid trade in my opinion.

I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea that we should do the Khazalid tranlation first, just to give Belegar as much Dwarf cred as possible when the rest of the dwarves find out he commissioned this very un-dwarfy idea.

That locks down Max, Serenity, and one of our personal actions.



So far, we've interacted with Qretch at least once each turn during the translation project, so keeping him sane didn't "cost" us any actions. That will change very soon, since we're moving on to other projects, so we need to dedicate an action to giving him other means to stay sane.

(Does the fact that I considered killing him now that he's expended his usefulness, just to save a single AP, make me a bad person?)



We know for a fact that the Waystone project is going to be a huge deal, and even if work doesn't start on it any time soon, this is the sort of thing we need to prepare for. Plus, we basically got an order to brush up on Waystones from Algard. So that's the third AP tied up.



The AV faction has been rumbling a lot lately, so any plan with AV will have a significant advantage over plans without it. Of the available AV actions, I'd suggest doing as much as possible ourselves before bringing the Dwarves into things, since that'll reflect best on us.



This seems like the best option for that. Nothing else in the plan is particularly special, so it'll probably get the Gambler.



That leaves the Overwork action.

A lot of people have brought up that the initial scouting of Drazh can be carried out by others, which is a fairly valid point. I do very much want to do it, but we may have more time on future turns.

Drazh aside, my personal preferences for this would be:

1). Practical Diplomacy

This should be done fairly soon. It will be critical in dealing with Ulrican politics, it will help us try to set up the Waystone project, it can help us deal with Belegar's increasing crisis with Thorgrim, it fills a gap in our skillset towards Lord Magister, and it counts as elf-land prep.

2). Power Stone Creation

This is additional instruction in magical theory as it relates to super-concentrated magic, which is likely relevant to Waystone handling, it's probably key to a lot of AV research, and it's necessary to create some really swanky magic items personally.



The EIC action getting us a Rumor Mill is another step towards Lord Magister status, and it makes sense to start at a more broad scope before installing more dedicated spying apparatus.

Johann should start work on his own Lord Magister thesis, once we publish the lexicons.

The ducklings can respond to whatever comes up.



Summary:

[MAX] Take Dictation (Khazalid Lexicon)
[JOHANN] Examine Skryre Notes
[DUCK] FREE
[EIC] Rumor Mill
[M1] Dictate (Khazalid Lexicon)
[M2] Give Qretch Stuff To Do Without Us
[M3] College Waystones 101
[M4] Basic AV Transformations
-[COIN] Gambler
[OVERWORK] Practical Diplomacy
[SERENITY] Reikspiel Lexicon (1/2)

Trying to include full Queekish in one turn is going to be difficult, and require some sacrifices - especially since Polyglot wasn't chosen, so I'm currently operating on the assumption that learning the spoken language will take two "study" actions.

The actual publishing actions remain the same as in the basic plan.



We should teach Wolf to talk as part of this plan. It's useful in general, so we'd do it at some point anyway, and having additional access to the scent based components of spoken Queekish will greatly improve our chances of actually learning the language in six months.



An action to learn spoken Queekish from Qretch, of course. It's worth considering exactly what lie with the Deciever would be best to actually convince him to teach us, mind you - he's still loyal to the Under-Empire, and we only got the written language out of him through divine intervention.



A second language learning action. Probably from Qretch again - if it was easy to get the language from recovered human slaves, it would have happened already.



And the Overwork action... probably a tossup between getting Qretch ready for long-term imprisonment, or the AV crowd going rabid and voting to execute him and spend the time on snekjuice instead.



Summary:

[MAX] Take Dictation (Khazalid Lexicon)
[JOHANN] Examine Skryre Notes
[DUCK] FREE
[EIC] Rumor Mill
[M1] Dictate (Khazalid Lexicon)
[M2] Teach Wolf To Talk
[M3] Spoken Queekish 1
-[COIN] Deciever
[M4] Spoken Queekish 2
[OVERWORK] AV Transformations / Let Qretch Live
[SERENITY] Reikspiel Lexicon (1/2)
I have to point out that even without Polyglot Mathilde already has learned Queekish grammar, characters and most of the vocabulary, and the only thing that we have done is giving Qrech documents to translate for 3 turns...

So there is actually a very decent chance that Mathilde will manage to pick up Spoken Queekish in one action if we can convince Qrech to teach us so even the first plan should give a shot at Spoken Queekish.

Since there is not much of a chance of getting prisoners, maybe we should try to pick the linguists, we don´t know how much would they help, but they are probably going to give us a bonus to all those actions...
 
I mean, that sounds fucking adorable. Yes this. What vote makes this happen? Everyone vote for that thing, please. Actually, no. Not please. Vote for that thing. Gaint Spooders with hats of various sizes is awesome.

Can some of the We have comically small hats? :D :D :D

@BoneyM what do I need to do to get a scene in which some of the We try out hats and some of those hats are ridiculously small too?

Write it as an omake, or ask that someone else does so.
 
Has every one forgot that the we needs food to make silk providing the food means higher slk output and less dead we hunters. On the queekish front we should string the project along to ensure we learn spoken quèekish. As we know the gramatical structure already we should have partial learning credit as long as its possible. Coincidentally stringing the project out also means we have time for AV.
 
I oppose mucking about with spoken Queekish because I see it as opening the path to damn-fool attempts at saving the Skaven from the Horned Rat or some such nonsense. I do not see that as being a viable goal. I do not see that as being an interesting place to go story-wise. I find the Skaven to be fairly uninteresting in-general and I just don't want this quest to get tangled up with them.
 
Hey @BoneyM, I've got several question that I wanted ask you.

What is the Dwarf favor to gold exchange rate? Does it differ based on the amount of favor exchanged at once? Does Dwarf rep affect how much gold we get from the favor exchange (Higher rep higher amount of gold)?
Could we buy books by purely spending dwarf favor instead of gold coins and dwarf favor?
Could we automatically buy books or get an option to purchase books from any traders arriving through the The Dark Lands if they happen have books to sell?
Do the colleges have any stored Skaven writings? If they do, could we get an option to seach through them for any Queekish vocabulary we don't recognize (possibly aquire magical vocabulary to translate)?
If we complete the Queekish-Khazalid Dictionary can we hire linguistics experts to write the Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary for us?

Sorry for the hassle.
 
Has every one forgot that the we needs food to make silk providing the food means higher slk output and less dead we hunters. On the queekish front we should string the project along to ensure we learn spoken quèekish. As we know the gramatical structure already we should have partial learning credit as long as its possible. Coincidentally stringing the project out also means we have time for AV.
Or we could use the actions that would be spent on learning spoken queekish and use them for AV research.
 
Spoken queekish has nothing to do with saving them its so potential agents like grey order wizards can infiltrate using magic. So that skaven captives can be interrogated.
 
So your saying that the sooner we finish the queekish project the sooner we can pitch the AV project and start making progress?

What a neat argument against learning spoken queekish.

Except a large amount of people flat out don't want to make AV the priority, stringing Queekish along slowly means we can do both in a reasonable time frame. Finishing off queekish asap means we do no av this turn and then we're still only going to at best be putting one action towards AV per turn due to other commitments.

For once we've a time period where there's no major going on, we can devote the bare minimum to getting queekish done as we put in extra time in previous turns towards it and do our other projects at the same time with out half assing it.

Note that we're already essentially part way through learning spoken queekish just by learning the written language., but you know what I don't care what your argument at this point is. Not learning spoken queekish is flat out dumb at this point. We're the only person that can do this, we have the means the opportunity and no one else will. In thousands of years its never been done.

Not doing this when it's basically almost accomplished already would be the height of folly and no amount of words getting thrown my way about a desire to do other things will convince me that not doing it is the right action to take, from a character perspective not trying to learn it now given the fact that no one else can or will be able to do this would paint Mathilde in a very poor light.
 
I am just going to vote for the simple stuff since this is my first time voting in a quest ever and leave everything else to the more experienced and versed in the thread.
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
Have to give best wolf a room. How could you not.
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
Guest room is necessary because I'm pretty sure Mathilde gets a lot of guests.
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
Best god needs another shrine worthy of his title
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
Mathilde could always use a place to brush up and refine her skills without having to go find a place to train.

hope I did good lol
 
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I don't think I agree with your conclusion, SSS.
And do we yet even know if 'spoken queekish' is actaully a complete language?
What if it's actually 'spoken, olfactory and whisker-gesture Queekish'?
 
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