Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[x] [WE] Economic Integration


Any reason why we aren't voting to treat the sentient spiders as citizens instead of military assets?
Because they're a citizen, single, and there's no reason to spend money on cattle when there's already a perfectly good source of food nearby that nobody's taking advantage of.

The gauntlet isn't a vote for the We to fight a forever war with a faucet of orcs, it's just letting them clean up the snacks we're already having to grind through on a constant basis.
 
I'd love to teach the We about raising cattle and farming, but that can wait until later, first we need to get them to explain to dwarves how gold has no inherent value.
It's going to be an uphill struggle, but i am confident in the We's climbing ability.
 
Because they're a citizen, single, and there's no reason to spend money on cattle when there's already a perfectly good source of food nearby that nobody's taking advantage of.

They may be a citizen, single, but in terms of potential strategic, economic and life saving value to the Karak, only Belegar, Mathilde, Kragg, Thorek and maaaaybe the other council members outmatch them. Heck, I am not even sure if Belegar does, after all, he has heirs.

True, their hive mind means they aren't in much danger, but I find any argument that understates their importance like that and tries to cheap out on them kind off off putting, considering that their silk is so valuable for construction and military applications that its OP economic applications manage to become a distant third. Their silk can increase, significantly, the power of every single order race, if mass-produced, after all, while the economic benefits would "only" make K8P so rich that the gold in its vaults seems like a meaningless decoration.
 
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True, their hive mind means they aren't in much danger, but I find any argument that understates their importance like that and tries to cheap out on them kind off off putting,
I think this is the part I'm arguing against. We're not 'cheaping out on them' in a way that wrongs them or 'understates their importance'. We are feeding them in a way that makes basic economic sense; nobody else is going to eat those orcs, and harvesting them costs nothing, compared to the food animals that everybody else would like to eat, and which cost a ton of money to harvest.

The Silk weavers are going to be weaving the same amount of silk either way, and neither option endangers them. This just determines whether the hunter drones are benefiting off of our chronic orc problem that we already have or being the equivalent of a leggy larder.
 
Out Of Gravitas
Karak Eight Peaks was home to some of the finest wizards of the next generation, each a bright young soul full of potential that was only beginning to be tapped. Soon, there would come a day when these journeymanlings would produce new marvels of the mind, befitting of the title Magisterial Masterpiece.

"What do you mean, you're out of gravitas?"

It was becoming increasingly clear that today was not that day.

"Yes, exactly! Wait, no. I meant, we. We're out of gravitas. Do you see the problem now?" Hubert pleaded, beseeching his fellow Journeywizard with a desperate look.

"No, can't say I do. Pass me that vial." Adela replied, fiddling distractedly with her latest experiment, which one could attempt to describe as a series of interconnected lightly smoking pipes. Attempt being the operative word. On a nearby table, an assortment of strangely shaped glassware sat above a small pile of schematics, filled by various fluids he didn't understand the labels of. It all looked like water, but it was best not to assume such things. An odd odor wafted through the room, not quite mitigated by the ventilation provided by an open window.

"The one on the right?"

A grunt of affirmation was the response, and the Ulrican obliged. It was warm to the touch.

"Look, you know how they treat us!" Hubert withdrew his arms from the handover and began gesturing, narrowly missing the contents of the table.

"Mm?" Done! Next step... just a bit of this solution, and some adjustment of that tube, and...

"The thread! The thrice bedamned thread! It's always 'oh, look at the cute little ducklings' or 'Nah, let's go look at that more interesting one dimensional dwarf side character instead' or—" Adela tuned him out, concentrating on the next stage of the delicate process at hand. She could deal with whatever he was raving about after the multiphasic measurement stage was complete.

"It's madness, is what it is, and—"

"A-ha! There you are!" A cheerful voice called out, interrupting the swordsman's speech. "What did I say about wandering off in the middle of things, Hubert Denzel?" Grabbing the rambling wizard by the sleeve, Panoramia took command of the situation. "Oh! Sorry if he's been bothering you, dear. It seems there was a bit of a side-effect in mixing my new special herbal blend with that beer. Or maybe it was the mushrooms. Mushroom beer? Anyways." Giving the wide-eyed swordsman a jab, she continued. "This one may need to lie down for a bit."

"I demand representation and— *hic*" he attempted.

"I said, may need to lie down for a bit." the Jade Wizard repeated, smiling pleasantly at the unfortunate Celestial.

"Y-yes ma'am! But—"

"Shush!"

With that matter settled, the new arrival turned from her previous victim, wait— no, that wasn't quite the right word. Experiment... ah, test subject... yes, that was a proper term... to her next target.

"Adela Burgstaller!"

"Present! Wha- oh, you startled me. Hang on for just a moment." Jotting down the results of her last measurement, the aspiring engineer turned to meet her new guest. "What can I do for you, Journeywoman?"

"That, my dear, is entirely the wrong question. The matter at hand is what I can do for you."

"Oh? You have my interest."

"Well, it's commonly known that the dwarves can endure combat conditions for much longer than humans and halflings. So I thought to myself, what can I do to help with that? And with trade picking up, there are all sorts of new ingredients and herbs to play with, so I asked around and whipped up a couple of these!"

Panoramia reached into her satchel and uncorked a bottle of dark liquid, holding it out for inspection. Adela cautiously sniffed the air, laden with a mix of fresh mountain breeze, warm experimental fumes, and now an evaporating bitter beverage.

"I call it Panoramia's Pungent Potion of Packing a Punch!"

"I see. Is that what you gave to poor Hubert?" Adela asked flatly.

"No! Well, not entirely. I skipped out on the mushrooms this time, and used boiled water as the base instead of beer."

"I'm not sure I fancy ending up like him..." she pointed to the prone groaning man, having found his way to a bench.

"Don't do it, it's a trap option..." he mumbled.

"I'll invite you to the next pie eating contest at the end of the week if you take it and let me record the results for the next two hours."

"Done!" She snatched the bottle and guzzled it down. "Blech! That tasted awful. You weren't kidding about that packing a punch!"

"Wait! Oh no... you were supposed to take that in sips!" Panoramia cried out in dismay.

Adela let out a belch of victory.

"Perhaps you are in need of my brand of assistance?" Gretel chortled at the doorway.

"They're not dying!"

"I feel fine."

"Avenge me!"

"I meant fetching a Magister, of course. What did you think I meant?"
 
Now that I think about it, there has to be more ways of economic integration than simply rendering the entire "hunter" side of the We obsolete.

...Why can't I think of anything else?! :sad:
 
Ehhhh...

I wouldn't go that far.

I would say in terms of technical skill, Kragg stands up even with the ancient luminaries.

What he lacks is the grammar they had access to that allowed them to put these large rune-strings in place, and build the tools that could construct stronger tools which could construct the big Dwarfen masterworks.

The fact he's as good as he is with a fraction of the data that they had access to probably means if he was born in that era, he'd still be one of the greats--but he'd be vastly more impressive because of it.
I totally disagree. The old runesmiths had extra runes, yes, but they also had extra ways of creating, applying nd combining the runes that Kragg still has (runes on cloth, runes on souls, etc). So not only does Kragg lack runelore, he also lacks runesmithing skills compared to the great.
 
Now that I think about it, there has to be more ways of economic integration than simply rendering the entire "hunter" side of the We obsolete.

...Why can't I think of anything else?! :sad:
In theory, we could pay them to hunt things that we want taken alive and not eaten, or be like "we would like you to exterminate the gribblies in [this area], you are free to eat them but we will also credit your account in a bounty fashion." But this sort of hybridized approach is not suited to the We at the moment:
Diversification is one of those things that's going to take time for them to grasp. Their bone-deep understanding is that there's The Way To Get Food and though that Way can change, doing multiple at once wouldn't make sense. One way must be better, so that is the Way. Just do that.
 
They may be a citizen, single, but in terms of potential strategic, economic and life saving value to the Karak, only Belegar, Mathilde, Kragg, Thorek and maaaaybe the other council members outmatch them. Heck, I am not even sure if Belegar does, after all, he has heirs.

True, their hive mind means they aren't in much danger, but I find any argument that understates their importance like that and tries to cheap out on them kind off off putting, considering that their silk is so valuable for construction and military applications that its OP economic applications manage to become a distant third. Their silk can increase, significantly, the power of every single order race, if mass-produced, after all, while the economic benefits would "only" make K8P so rich that the gold in its vaults seems like a meaningless decoration.
If the We decide that being given a safe hunting ground guarded by Dwarven fortifications is worth "paying" for in credit for their meals, who are we to tell them they're wrong? We aren't dealing with pre-contact spiders anymore, they're far enough along in their education that telling them that their own decisions on valuation and credit assignment are incorrect is mighty condescending of us, and we've been making a point of avoiding paternalism so far.

If the conclusion of our talk with the We is that they should get in on the gobbo hunting, and the We agree with that conclusion and then decide by themself that a significant portion of their meals should be credited to the Dwarves who are actually managing the defenses and keeping the We safe, that's their decision and their right. If they decide they want to renegotiate later, as their education continues, that's fine. We've treated them fairly thus far, and we can renegotiate fairly in the future. We'll certainly have the resources to provide them with more direct material compensation by then, if that is their desire.

Besides, it's not like the Scavenge option is supposed to be permanent. We do plan on dealing with the greenskins at some point, so we'll have to come to a more permanent arrangement eventually. Might as well enjoy the low hanging fruit while it lasts, and with any luck, the We'll have stronger opinions on what they want out of life by the time this comes up again.

I totally disagree. The old runesmiths had extra runes, yes, but they also had extra ways of creating, applying nd combining the runes that Kragg still has (runes on cloth, runes on souls, etc). So not only does Kragg lack runelore, he also lacks runesmithing skills compared to the great.
Those ways of creating, applying, and combining are the grammar he mentioned in his post.
 
Having them wear hats, that's civilization right there.
I mean, that sounds fucking adorable. Yes this. What vote makes this happen? Everyone vote for that thing, please. Actually, no. Not please. Vote for that thing. Gaint Spooders with hats of various sizes is awesome.

Can some of the We have comically small hats? :D :D :D

@BoneyM what do I need to do to get a scene in which some of the We try out hats and some of those hats are ridiculously small too?
 
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[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.
 
Celestial drunken ducky~
XDDD, ah, as amusing as this omake is, I'd say the trouble you duckies have is you've yet to seperate yourself in Matilda's eyes or start doing awesome enough things to really warrent us knowing you guys by name.
Especially the star-gazer. Come-on man, learn to throw some lightning bolts or something!
That said, For all I'm willing to mock blue robes I feel like Gretel might be the closest to advancing from Journeyman Matilda can boss around to Magister who deeply respects Matilda.
That, or she just goes and crits her way into something awesome enough that she's no longer a ducky. Not so sure the other two will have her luck, but so far I've gotten the impression she's the coolest of the duckies.
 
XDDD, ah, as amusing as this omake is, I'd say the trouble you duckies have is you've yet to seperate yourself in Matilda's eyes or start doing awesome enough things to really warrent us knowing you guys by name.
Especially the star-gazer. Come-on man, learn to throw some lightning bolts or something!
That said, For all I'm willing to mock blue robes I feel like Gretel might be the closest to advancing from Journeyman Matilda can boss around to Magister who deeply respects Matilda.
That, or she just goes and crits her way into something awesome enough that she's no longer a ducky. Not so sure the other two will have her luck, but so far I've gotten the impression she's the coolest of the duckies.
Hey, Hubert's the dude who thought it was a good idea to fight a troll—with a sword. That's pretty distinguishing, in my opinion. Stupid as duck, yes, but pretty distinguishing.
 
Hmm, I wonder if the We would be interested in using their silk to armour up some of their less expendable units; as they start gearing up to produce silk efficiently you could argue that it costs less protein and time to make each hunter a silk barding than to make replacement hunters.
 
Hmm, I wonder if the We would be interested in using their silk to armour up some of their less expendable units; as they start gearing up to produce silk efficiently you could argue that it costs less protein and time to make each hunter a silk barding than to make replacement hunters.
I assume the We's natural exoskeleton is chitinous enough to be pretty OK protection as-is. Plus, they seem to mostly practice ambush predation, rather than any sort of slugfest or straight-up fight.
 
[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains

[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.



[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Trophy Room
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
 
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I assume the We's natural exoskeleton is chitinous enough to be pretty OK protection as-is. Plus, they seem to mostly practice ambush predation, rather than any sort of slugfest or straight-up fight.


I didn't mean to suggest that armour would be particularly useful to them for their natural hunting habits.

Rather, that when salvaging the gauntlet it is a little more important for them to be able to survive meeting an orc outside of ambush conditions, (or even, while encumbered by prey) because of the greater orc density and less space for proper trapping there.

Or even for when we/We/they decide that they should have some measure of millitary integration on the open field.
 
[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
 
The laughs when the silent majority come to vote on the boon, that we'll been holding off on getting for the good of the Karak's bank book, and the thing they want is like Cactus Fief 2.0 DELUXE.

"You've just gotta hold tight until we can raise the 2500 gold for that permanent patch of land Mathilde. It might take a whi- oh wait there it is, someone sneezed and a gold nugget big enough to pay for it fell out of their beard."
 
Hey friends -- since there isn't a lot of discussion left to have about the current vote (there's still a chance that Spend It Now overtakes as the Boon option, but I'm not optimistic and don't really want to fight about it at the moment), I figured I'd poll for the thread's opinions on preliminary turnplanning.

For those who haven't been following the discussion about T26, here is a summary: unless Belegar chooses to reassign us, our task this turn is our Queekish project. There are two major schools of thought about this:
  • We should plan to finish it up this turn and write our Queekish reference books with what we currently have, then take a new project to start T27
  • We should try to learn as much as we can of Spoken Queekish this turn, extend the project by one turn, and write the Queekish reference books on Turn 27, starting a new project on T28
I'm personally pretty divided about this, though I lean slightly towards finishing it up. So what I've been trying to do is come up with outlines for a T26 plan of each sort, so that we have good candidates for each plan and the voters can decide. Now, the other day, I realized the following:
I had previously thought a book needed to be written all in one turn. The fact that it doesn't means that we can trade turn X's personal action for turn X+1's Serenity action, and personals are wildly more valuable than Serenities. We can do something like this on the turn we wrap up Queekish:

Max: Take dictation
P1: Dictate one dictionary
P2-4: Free
Serenity: Write half of the other dictionary

And then the following turn we use our Serenity action to write the other half of the dictionary. It means not getting to use Serenity on a paper that turn, but swapping a Serenity for a personal means that, if we really wanted to write a paper before it times out, we could use a personal to dictate two papers to Max on turn X+1, essentially gaining one paper for "free" if we so chose*.

*Not really free. Compared to the "do it all in one turn" plan of dictionary-writing, it turns a Max action and a Serenity action into two papers, which is the usual conversion rate... but that applies only when there's a paper Max can write totally by himself, which isn't always the case, and Max+Mathilde teaming up is the route to the highest-quality papers.

Regardless of whether we want to finish up Queekish in the coming turn or if we want to go for spoken Queekish and extend the project by one turn, I think this is a really useful potential optimization to keep in mind for whatever turn we end up writing the dictionaries.
Previously, my outline for "Finish up this turn" was like this:
  • Max: Take dictation
  • Serenity: Write half of one reference
  • P1: Dictate one reference book
  • P2: Write half of the other reference book
  • P3: Rapport with Qrech (necessary so we can stop spending actions on him every turn)
  • P4: College class on Waystones
  • (Overwork) P5: AV research action
  • Johann/Duckling Club/EIC/Penthouse/Coin: Not relevant to this discussion
But I do really want to convert a Serenity action into a personal action, so I'm inclined to spread a book out over two turns. But now I'm wondering, and I want to ask the thread... what is most important to do with that saved personal action we're no longer spending on "Write half of the other reference book"? Here are the options, as I see them:
  • Take a self-improvement action (get an Arcane Mark under control? Train Wolf? Practice a skill?)
  • More research (that last We research action? Another AV research action? Study Ranald's Coin?)
  • More investment into the Waystone excitement that got dumped in our lap (Class on Practical Diplomacy? Some Waystone-related action that I cannot predict now because I am not Boney and I don't know what he plans to make available to us?)
  • EDIT: Scout Black Crag?
  • Take no fifth action and instead keep Overwork in reserve?
  • Damn the personal action cost, stick to the original plan and pump out both books in a single turn?
Like I did yesterday by polling the thread about Penthouse and EIC actions, I'm just interested in taking the thread's temperature. I am pretty sure that when the update where we're actually supposed to vote about this gets posted, the thread is going to be dominated by discussion of whether we should extend Queekish or finish it up, so I'd like to get as much discussion in about the other factors we need to consider before then. I have opinions about what to do with a saved action, but there's no way of knowing what other people are thinking without, well, seeing what they say.

(I know this is probably a futile request, but I'd prefer that right now we not debate about whether we should be finishing up this turn -- like I said, I expect that will be the big thing we discuss when the vote is open, so I want to focus right now on "what should be in the finish-up-this-turn plan.")
 
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Like I did yesterday by polling the thread about Penthouse and EIC actions, I'm just interested in taking the thread's temperature. I am pretty sure that when the update where we're actually supposed to vote about this gets posted, the thread is going to be dominated by discussion of whether we should extend Queekish or finish it up, so I'd like to get as much discussion in about the other factors we need to consider before then. I have opinions about what to do with a saved action, but there's no way of knowing what other people are thinking without, well, seeing what they say.

(I know this is probably a futile request, but I'd prefer that right now we not debate about whether we should be finishing up this turn -- like I said, I expect that will be the big thing we discuss when the vote is open, so I want to focus right now on "what should be in the finish-up-this-turn plan.")

I would rather go to the next AV action, which is to take it to the runesmiths, and let the College Class on Waystones wait a turn.

It's the new shiny, but it's not urgent. Waystone action can wait a year or even two.
 
Now that I think about it, there has to be more ways of economic integration than simply rendering the entire "hunter" side of the We obsolete.

...Why can't I think of anything else?! :sad:

I've actually got something pretty good for this I thought up yesterday that could maintain them as an offensive force; renting out We warrior forms as mercenaries.

Now if the We can just choose to make only web weavers probably not worth it for them personally, but if they say just biologically produce so many warriors per web weaver then they might as well do something with them and I think this is a good possibility.

Now, the exact model will depend on a number of factors, in this case for simplicity just assume that the average warrior has a 12 years natural lifespan, with 1 year of maturing.

So there's a clutch of 100 warriors all born, they just from being We have second-hand experience from the hive mind, plus basic commands and laws (so they can't be bought by and used by bandits for example), reach maturity and have 11 years lifespan left.

The We effectively rents these warriors out on up to a maximum 10 year contract for use as either ambushers, for example set them loose on a forest and say 'kill all beastmen you find, survivors regroup and return in one week', or they can be used as basic fodder in an army. Once the We are more training in and understand war I believe freely expendable and obedient giant spiders will be very useful for the forces of Order and it's not like the We care about them so long as they can exchange them for equal or greater value.

These We if not killed working as mercenaries can either be traded in back to the main We hive they were rented from for a portion of their cost back once the job is done, or once they have 1 year remaining in their lifespan (or when their contract ends) then they will attempt to return to the main We hive of their own accord, which will not only give that Hive back some biomass (they eat their own) but also pass the experience these veterans have to the hive mind for the improvement of future mercenary We.

These We mercenaries depending on their number may also be able to hunt for themselves, hunt extra for themselves and any non-We army they're fighting with or if there's many may need to be supplied food for, that's down to the contract owners.

Now if such a group of We would result in a second We hive mind then there could also be a clause in the contract where if say only so many of the We remain, however many is needed for this We to live, then the contract would also be broken (e.g. if an army rents out 200 We, if they are depleted to only 30 or something left they leave and return to the main hive). Or if a split We cannot rejoin the progenitor We then they could act as sort of partners, the Warrior We working as both a protector for the Economy We and as a mercenary walking army in downtime with some profits going to Economy We in exchange for being supplied with the warriors Economy We produces (....huh, this is reminding me of Worm Entities, interesting parallel).

Course this all depends on how the We work but I think it could be neat, working to benefit the We economically via money from mercenary contracts, keeps them as having a strong warrior caste from the mercenary experience and benefits the forces of Order.
 
With all the loot and follow-up opportunities after the retaking, I seriously don't see the advantage of delaying the completion of the dictionaries. We have too many low-hanging fruits to go for something that'l take an entire extra turn for marginal improvement.
 
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