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Esmerelda's not bad. Better almost any deity than no deity in this world. And it'd be a waste to change horses mid-stream, so to speak. She's making good progress.

As I understand it, because of the way halflings have absolutely no warp presence, Esmerelda doesn't actually, uh, exist.

Like, there's ceremonies and rituals that the halflings hold for her, but she doesn't actually exist as a warp entity the way that, say, Ranald does.
 
As I understand it, because of the way halflings have absolutely no warp presence, Esmerelda doesn't actually, uh, exist.

Like, there's ceremonies and rituals that the halflings hold for her, but she doesn't actually exist as a warp entity the way that, say, Ranald does.
Eh, I've never enjoyed going into Warhammer Metaphysics.

Even if they can't use any magic powers from worshipping her, and who knows if they could even if it was Sigmar or something, the ethics the Cult espouses aren't a bad fit.
 
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Spooders are adorable. Spooders that recognize debt are both adorable and scary. Eventually, the We are going to produce a merchant-We, and will start spreading economic webs all over the Old World. Merchants will suddenly start weeding out those with weak hearts.

[ ] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[ ] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
One of these two for the Boon - the first may have Belegar worrying about Mathilde's plans, but at least she's being sensible about logistics. The second is "I'm still coming off of emergency mode, give me some time to think about it." Which I suspect Belegar will be okay with.

One Room option I would like to push is the Armory- having weapons on hand to defend the tower complex seems like a sensible precaution.

I also like the idea of spending 5 CF for the Cathayan translation - probably worth knowing what those books are, and we're not hurting there.
 
Roswita may have shown her inexperience in the overly-ambitious three-pronged assault, but with the campaign devolved into a much more basic brawl the Army of Stirland has found its feet and stamped out the Strigoi, with one confirmed dead and interred at Siegfriedhof, one cannibalized by a rival and probably out of the picture for at least a while, and a third fled the Hunger Wood with its army shattered. The Battle Wizards put in a decent showing, avoiding any major miscasts while still providing solid contributions to each major battle, and the Stirland Repeater's first substantial deployment was an overall success, with maintenance and logistical concerns outweighed by the sheer weight of fire it was capable of putting out at a moment's notice.
Some of this is actually very interesting.
So early modern armies started running into the problem that their combat capability would degrade rapidly if they got too far from railroads, because machine guns and breech-loading artillery burn through an absurd quantity of ammunition very very quickly, but the effect actually starts being noticable with massed forces of repeating rifles.
Though even ammunition-starved repeaters typically did better than single shots.
So long as they're deployed as part of a larger force, and thus hooked into outsized logistical arteries, or otherwise deployed near rivers (the empire's closest equivalent to a railroad) the problem shouldn't be noticable. So a more serious concern is probably the extra difficulty of cartridge manufacture, considering all the steps of firearms development the empire just skipped.

Expanding my other thoughts from a bit ago
The point of an ironclad would be to be a decisive advantage in naval combat, as I don't like the odds for the empire's navy versus a primarily naval-focused power, not without some sort of edge.
And the fact that dwarf holds and the empire are now both on the same river system opens up further options, for example I'd bet that the widespread adoption of steam-driven river shipping would create an economic boom, as goods get easier to ship upriver(and most of the empire is upriver).
So even if the dwarves are unwilling to share the technology, their own river shipping operating in the empire, or else imperal companies using leased dwarf steamships with dwarf engineering crews, could both cause an economic boom, and make supplying armies easier.
I'm completely withdrawing any attempt to suggest that the empire should be interested in getting a seaborne ironclad, and instead I'm going to focus on suggesting that the empire should get a strong force of river steamers, possibly with mortars, possibly ironclad, all answering to the Emperor.
Then the Emperor could send the force out to any elector count expecting to fight near one of the empire's many rivers to build goodwill. It would also fit perfectly with the empire's territorial ambitions, in that after that canal is completed any river warships will be able to fight in the Border Princes, OR attack Marienburg(or head north to defend kislev if that's your cup of tea), and while Marienburg might have a strong fleet I doubt they have an especially dangerous river fleet.


Other idea for that boon, we could try to get Belegar to exert what pressure is practical to help the Empire retake the Border Princes. That's almost equivalent right? We helped him take a Karak, he helps us take a province, or at least the eastern chunk of the Border Princes that is relevant to the new river trade.
 
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As I understand it, because of the way halflings have absolutely no warp presence, Esmerelda doesn't actually, uh, exist.

Like, there's ceremonies and rituals that the halflings hold for her, but she doesn't actually exist as a warp entity the way that, say, Ranald does.
Boney has stated before that Halflings have similar numbers of mages as humans, it's just that their population is tiny. Additionally, halflings definitely have souls; the lack of miracles in canon is either due to their tiny population or the fact that they don't really worship their gods seriously (something thats been changed for this quest, as there's a priestess of Esmeralda).
 
So a more serious concern is probably the extra difficulty of cartridge manufacture, considering all the steps of firearms development the empire just skipped.

It's still a ball-and-powder design, it has internal magazines for each.

Huh. I'm not really clear on the timeline, but did the Fall of Nehekhara to Nagash contribute to the Fall of K8P? Having food supply issues certainly would've weakened the Hold.

There's enough of a gap between the two that you can't draw a direct line, but when the Skaven did come calling, the Karak definitely would have been in a stronger position if they still had access to the bounty of the Great Vitae River.
 
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Has anyone had any thought what might work as a preserved food option for the we? things are ok now but its not unthinkable that something could interrupt supply for them.
 
Some of this is actually very interesting.
So early modern armies started running into the problem that their combat capability would degrade rapidly if they got too far from railroads, because machine guns and breech-loading artillery burn through an absurd quantity of ammunition very very quickly, but the effect actually starts being noticable with massed forces of repeating rifles.
Though even ammunition-starved repeaters typically did better than single shots.
So long as they're deployed as part of a larger force, and thus hooked into outsized logistical arteries, or otherwise deployed near rivers (the empire's closest equivalent to a railroad) the problem shouldn't be noticable. So a more serious concern is probably the extra difficulty of cartridge manufacture, considering all the steps of firearms development the empire just skipped.

Expanding my other thoughts from a bit ago


I'm completely withdrawing any attempt to suggest that the empire should be interested in getting a seaborne ironclad, and instead I'm going to focus on suggesting that the empire should get a strong force of river steamers, possibly with mortars, possibly ironclad, all answering to the Emperor.
Then the Emperor could send the force out to any elector count expecting to fight near one of the empire's many rivers to build goodwill. It would also fit perfectly with the empire's territorial ambitions, in that after that canal is completed any river warships will be able to fight in the Border Princes, OR attack Marienburg(or head north to defend kislev if that's your cup of ea), and while they might have a strong fleet I doubt they have an especially dangerous river fleet.


Other idea for that boon, we could try to get Belegar to exert what pressure is practical to help the Empire retake the Border Princes. That's almost equivalent right? We helped him take a Karak, he helps us take a province, or at least the eastern chunk of the Border Princes that is relevant to the new river trade.
Retaking the border princes is just bad geopolitics. It's simply indefensible against the periodic million-orc WAAAGHS that periodically come boiling out of the World's Edge Mountains.

Also, I suspect that the Elector Counts are going to have some very strenuous objections to the Emperor building a fleet ironclads that would allow him to project power along their rivers.
 
@BoneyM do the Dwarfs have any Rune of Cold? Refrigerated containers could be nifty export good to Barak Varr, who can then re-sell K8P silk to the Empire in return for cheap Averland/Stirland/Moot produce and meats.
 
@BoneyM do the Dwarfs have any Rune of Cold? Refrigerated containers could be nifty export good to Barak Varr, who can then re-sell K8P silk to the Empire in return for cheap Averland/Stirland/Moot produce and meats.
Uh, Barak Varr is a Dwarfhold, if they need Runework done, they're in a better position than Karak 8 Peaks, which, I must remind you, does not actually have any Runesmiths.

Kragg's sticking around for now, sure, but he's also not going to work on refrigerators.
 
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@BoneyM : Three interesting questions.
  1. Can the tests to identify if an animal has the potential to be a familiar be done on the We?
  2. Would any of the local wizards without a familiar be interested in being connected to the We?
  3. How do the We feel about joining to a wizard?
 
Plonking this down just in case I fall asleep and change all of my mind before the vote opens. :V Future Me might be an idiot and go against Now Me's current choices.

[ ] [WE] Economic Integration
[ ] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
[ ] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[ ] [ROOM] Guest Room
[ ] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[ ] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar
[Tbd] [LIBRARY]
[ ] [COLLEGE] 2 favors for an Item of MMAPP for the Karak's war-room.
[ ] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books

I kinda wanna learn MMAPP just to have the improved upon Lesser Magic version, but dang if that ain't an incredibly low priority haha.
 
[ ] [WE] Hunt the Badlands

Pros: helps cut down on greenskin population. early warning system.
cons: adds a major predatory species to the ecosystem in an area where hunting is a viable profession. have to build a tunnel. cuts into profits.

[ ] [WE] Hunt the Mountains

pros: eairly warning system. is in an area where fewer hunters are likely to go.
cons: cuts into profits. still may impact hunting.

[ ] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet

pros: helps with security. thins the greenskins.
cons: cuts into profits.

[ ] [WE] Bounty System

pros: attracts and holds attention of mercs in area. Strengthens economy by having built in market for goods and services. cuts down on local enemies. mercs supply meals receive silk. mercs sell silk locally for food, shelter, services. local merchants export silk and silk goods.
cons: exploitative and cuts into direct profit.

[ ] [WE] Economic Integration

Pros: two way trade. maximum profit.
cons: EXPLOITATIVE!!

I don't see how doing all 5 would be mutually exclusive. allow them access to the three different areas to hunt. instate a bounty system and offer to directly purchase silk. It allows the We some autonomy while also encouraging trade, and attracting mercs to stay in the area.
 
I don't see how doing all 5 would be mutually exclusive. allow them access to the three different areas to hunt. instate a bounty system and offer to directly purchase silk. It allows the We some autonomy while also encouraging trade, and attracting mercs to stay in the area.
The We don't like complications.
 
Has anyone had any thought what might work as a preserved food option for the we? things are ok now but its not unthinkable that something could interrupt supply for them.

They store food in the form of spiders. In good times, they increase their population and have the excess hibernating in the walls of the nests. In bad times, they can last a very long time by minimizing activity and gradually cannibalizing their population.

@BoneyM : Three interesting questions.
  1. Can the tests to identify if an animal has the potential to be a familiar be done on the We?
  2. Would any of the local wizards without a familiar be interested in being connected to the We?
  3. How do the We feel about joining to a wizard?

The answer to 1 is technically yes, and Mathilde has checked with negative results, making 2 and 3 academic. But the We being fundamentally incompatible with becoming familiars is indiscernible from them just happening to not have any potential familiars amongst them.

I don't see how doing all 5 would be mutually exclusive. allow them access to the three different areas to hunt. instate a bounty system and offer to directly purchase silk. It allows the We some autonomy while also encouraging trade, and attracting mercs to stay in the area.

Diversification is one of those things that's going to take time for them to grasp. Their bone-deep understanding is that there's The Way To Get Food and though that Way can change, doing multiple at once wouldn't make sense. One way must be better, so that is the Way. Just do that.
 
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Well, the We seems to be a remnant of a Pre-Skaven underground ecosystem, so we should look into other pockets of surviving wildlife and see what can live underground and feed the We, I am hoping there are nugs somewhere, so they could learn to farm their own food.

As for a short term solution, I kinda like all options? The gauntlet seems like the simplest option, but I don't want the Drahz forces to be there forever, we have to deal with the source eventually so they would have to change again.

So the Badlands seem like the more permanent solution, unless we go for the trade (which would be expensive I imagine, unless we really get into the goat business with the goo). The mountains could work as well, but I feel like they might accidentally run into some giant eagles get in trouble for it.
 
But I don't think that would be the primary cost of the Great Library -- the primary cost is the books. We pay as much for an Extensive collection of a single topic as we do to get Dwarf construction workers excavating and building four very nice rooms in our Penthouse.

Remember, we have a 300 GC Book budget as Loremaster alone.

As in, Karak Eight Peaks, while still a hot and contested Warzone was able to fund 300GC worth of books per turn for the Loremaster - and that's with military expenditure, paying mercenaries, paying for arms, paying for Halfling expertise , paying for food and necessities, the silver mines just coming online, and so on.

Remember, you don't need to buy all the books for the Great Library all at once. It doesn't matter if the first 300GC of budget adds only a small collection of extensive books on a selected topic to the Library - Libraries are entities that accrue assets over time , never all at once. Triggering the Boon now doesn't mean Karak Eight Peaks have to spend 3000GC to make a Great Library - 600 GC per annum over five years fulfills the boon just as much as 3000 GC right now. Even if we need 3000GCs of books before opening the Library to the Public, it doesn't matter if we take five years to reach that point from the perspective of this boon, since it's by design a continual boon where patience is fundamentally baked into the Boon.

The model of the Library not as a thing constructed in a day, but an entity grown over time is especially true in a technological context where Books are expensive.

Books might be expensive but financial constraints for a Karak of the wealth of the Eight Peaks only dictates how fast the Library grows, not whether the Library exist. The real constraints for the Karak is manpower and technical expertise, not so much a 300GC Library acquisition Budget every turn. A 300GC (and growing as the finances of the Karak grow stronger) Library acquisition budget per turn is hardly going to break the Karak, and is more than sufficient to fulfil the Boon.

Let me reiterate: the Great Library is not a I want it NOW boon.
Indeed, by nature, it's a boon where the earlier we start, the better, because by nature the Library is a growing entity. By nature, so long as the budget is not smaller than the one we already have as Loremaster, the Library would slowly grow. We are asking for a seed that with time might become a mighty tree.

Books are expensive from a personal perspective, but you don't have to buy the collection all at once.

Don't think of bottlenecks in terms of GC, think it in terms of what the Eight Peaks are actually scarce off - Dwarfpower and Dwarven "Human" Capital. If you want to argue against the Library as expensive, it's more strategic to argue that it's Dwarfpower and Dwarven Capital expensive, rather than focusing on the GC Cost, which could easily be as low as our book Budget - which I doubt is hardly straining the Karak Finances. I haven't actually seen argument that it's manpower and human capital-wise expensive.

It doesn't matter for the fulfilment of the boon if all we can do is add a single extensive topic collection to the Library every turn because that's all the Karak can safely afford - indeed if this is the case, this is an argument for starting with the Boon now, because every turn the Library is allowed to slowly grow makes it's impact stronger sooner in the longer run.



A great library might actually be more affordable right now, with all of the craftsmen here, than in the future. We may want to consider this during purchase.


Unfortunately, I have a feeling the Books are Expensive argument counterargument is going to be very persuasive right now, just because the hidden assumption of this argument , that the entire Library has to be Bought right now will be utterly unchallenged by Library advocates, and the weaker forms of the assumption that even the Initial Collection must be both broad and therefore correspondingly expensive will be left unquestioned, or that attempts to question this assumption is left utterly unnoticed.

Boon is easy. Spend it now, or it'd be floating there indefinitely. Emergency usage would be more likely to strain Belegar.

There are large sections of the thread that think that any Transcendatal Boon is too expensive, and would prefer to have it float there indefinitely because they think it won't strain Belegar. This argument is a toss-up too be honest, and runs into the problem that people dislike the Library idea (which isn't necessarily going to be the only idea on the table).

I think the more convincing argument is that any long run (as opposed to a one off) Boon that involves something that grows slowly over time should be initiated as soon as possible because doing in that way will better spread out the cost of the Boon over a long period of time, and therefore represents a far lesser strain on the Karak.
 
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The We don't like complications.

What's complicated about "You can hunt in these areas for, or you can trade silk to us for food, or both. your choice." the We are smart enough to understand those choices if they can understand stand in currency.

Edit: the QM has spoken and clarified.
 
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