Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SuperSonicSound]

I don't think I agree with your conclusion, SSS.
And do we yet even know if 'spoken queekish' is actaully a complete language?
What if it's actually 'spoken, olfactory and whisker-gesture Queekish'?

Click to shrink...

I don't credit that last possibility. Queekish is spoken through giant radio equivalents. That means both gestures and olfactory cannot be mandatory. They may inform mood and tone but they cannot be mandatory for being able to speak the language.

 

[Mopman43]

I don't credit that last possibility. Queekish is spoken through giant radio equivalents. That means both gestures and olfactory cannot be mandatory. They may inform mood and tone but they cannot be mandatory for being able to speak the language.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, there could easily be some form of "Simplified Queekish", purely for the radio. Useful enough to convey information, but not to infiltrate or understand a full conversation.

I mean, you can transfer information with Morse Code, but that doesn't mean knowing Morse Code would mean you know English.

 

[notanautomaton]

I don't credit that last possibility. Queekish is spoken through giant radio equivalents. That means both gestures and olfactory cannot be mandatory. They may inform mood and tone but they cannot be mandatory for being able to speak the language.

Click to shrink...

It could also mean that Mathilde can only understand, but not speak. Or that she needs Wolf around to be able to puck up tone of voice.

 

[veekie]

It could also mean that Mathilde can only understand, but not speak. Or that she needs Wolf around to be able to puck up tone of voice.

Click to shrink...

Illusion could 'speak' the parts. As long as she understands the gist

 

[me.me.here]

Which might be an issue if the Gauntlet weren't also an easy food source for the We, a way for the We to keep their hunting skills sharp so they have more options in the future, a way to build rapport between the We and the dwarves, or any of the other advantages to the option that people have discussed over the last few dozen pages.

If this were clearly the worst option for the We I would understand that argument, but we're not morally obligated to pick something else just because this option benefits us. We're not playing a zero-sum game - both the We and Dwarves can prosper in good faith. And the claim that we are "cheeping the We out" because this option benefits us, when the option benefits us because of informed decisions the We will independently make, shows disrespect for the We's own agency.

If the arrangement we settle on involves providing the We with a service (hunting ground maintenance + Karak defense) that they then decide to pay us for, that's not us abusing their trust, that's just the We using the education we gave them so that they could make their own informed decisions in order to make their own informed decisions.

Click to shrink...

Well, see, the problem with THIS argument is that while there is value to be had for the Dwarves, most people seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong) voting for the Gauntlet because it's good for the We, not the Dwarves. It keeps their current life style so we and We don't need to be concerned with the repercussions of the hunter caste going obsolete, it supplies them with easy pickings thus ensuring they get plenty to eat, and it keeps them in view of the Dwarves visibly killing things, helping their image. True, there's the issue of us knowing that they'll likely credit the Dwarves and that being inconsistent with the way we value things, but it's not inconsistent with the way the We value things, so I find it hard to buy the argument that it's a betrayal of trust. A real betrayal of trust would be making them dependant on a good source we don't even control, like with the bounty system.

Click to shrink...

You two have lost sight of the picture. The points kfar was originally responding to are as follows.

Because they're a citizen, single, and there's no reason to spend money on cattle when there's already a perfectly good source of food nearby that nobody's taking advantage of.

The gauntlet isn't a vote for the We to fight a forever war with a faucet of orcs, it's just letting them clean up the snacks we're already having to grind through on a constant basis.

Click to shrink...

They may be a citizen, single, but in terms of potential strategic, economic and life saving value to the Karak, only Belegar, Mathilde, Kragg, Thorek and maaaaybe the other council members outmatch them. Heck, I am not even sure if Belegar does, after all, he has heirs.

True, their hive mind means they aren't in much danger, but I find any argument that understates their importance like that and tries to cheap out on them kind off off putting, considering that their silk is so valuable for construction and military applications that its OP economic applications manage to become a distant third. Their silk can increase, significantly, the power of every single order race, if mass-produced, after all, while the economic benefits would "only" make K8P so rich that the gold in its vaults seems like a meaningless decoration.

Click to shrink...

Someone explicitly argued for Gauntlet (over integration) on the basis that we could save a bunch of money by just handing over a bunch of greenskin corpses rather than deliberately buying animals to trade for silk with. Another person then commented that they felt that reasoning was understating the actual value the We provided and not properly compensating them.

Kfar started arguing that this was paternalistic because the We should be free to valuate things however they want, and I clarified that the objection was not about the We's valuation but the fact that deliberately taking advantage of a difference in two parties valuation (with the vast amount of rewards going to one party over another) is a dick move.

 

[Alliterate]

Illusion could 'speak' the parts. As long as she understands the gist

Click to shrink...

Modulating a Fiendishly Complex spell, that requires 'near-constant concentration', to convey convincing meaning at real-time communication speeds?
...
Lets just say I have my doubts.

 

[chocolote12]

Kfar started arguing that this was paternalistic because the We should be free to valuate things however they want, and I clarified that the objection was not about the We's valuation but the fact that deliberately taking advantage of a difference in two parties valuation (with the vast amount of rewards going to one party over another) is a dick move.

Click to shrink...

The issue with this is that it doesn't... actually refute their point?

If this were clearly the worst option for the We I would understand that argument, but we're not morally obligated to pick something else just because this option benefits us. We're not playing a zero-sum game - both the We and Dwarves can prosper in good faith. And the claim that we are "cheeping the We out" because this option benefits us, when the option benefits us because of informed decisions the We will independently make, shows disrespect for the We's own agency.

Click to shrink...

The We desire to be fed. We are finding a way to feed them. That we can do so cheaply isn't a moral wrong, for which we are obligated to choose a more expensive option. Rather, it is a point of celebration, because we can give them what they want so easily.

We offered them better deals:

The obvious question from there is 'how much more valuable', and the We had considered and ultimately rejected a great deal of economic theory in favour of a much more easy to grasp 'twice as valuable'. Twice the weight in protein, or roughly eight times it in live animals.

Click to shrink...

And this is what they decided on.

 

[Neshuakadal]

I don't credit that last possibility. Queekish is spoken through giant radio equivalents. That means both gestures and olfactory cannot be mandatory. They may inform mood and tone but they cannot be mandatory for being able to speak the language.

Click to shrink...

The big paradox I see is this. Skaven slaves can learn queekish. Mathilde at least predicts that given the options we had for trying to find one. Yet no progress on queekish has been made. The idea that the grey order hasn't been able to rescue a single skaven slave and tried learning the language from them is ridiculous. This leads to the paradox where it can be learned yet no institution has been able to learn it despite undoubtedly trying.

As for your other arguments I fundamentally reject them. Mathilde is not the only one who can or is able to learn spoken queekish. This is shown by slaves knowing spoken queekish. If slaves can learn spoken queekish other people can. Now that written queekish is broken open a lot more opportunities will likely be available to other grey wizards that want to take a swing at it. Sure it would take a lot longer than if Mathilde decides to plug away at it but that's ok for me since I view spoken queekish as having marginal value at best. You clearly have a very different view but nothing you have said makes me reevaluate my stance.

Spoken queekish should have been the easy part of the language. You hear a squeak and get attacked enough times you learn that the squeak likely means attack. The fact that no institution seems to know any spoken queekish tells me that there is something else going on.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Mathilde at least predicts that given the options we had for trying to find one.

Click to shrink...

I feel like the most likely possibility is Mathilde is wrong about slaves generally speaking the language. Maybe it's a case where a rare few do which is why she got the idea but in general they don't.

I'm also not 100% on the lore but I feel like there wouldn't be a huge amount of incentive for skaven to keep non skaven slaves. As their slave caste is simply better for most purposes, so beyond Moulder having some for experiments and possibly some for prestige in other clans I feel like they'd usually just be eaten if captured.

 

[Quest]

I don't think I agree with your conclusion, SSS.
And do we yet even know if 'spoken queekish' is actaully a complete language?
What if it's actually 'spoken, olfactory and whisker-gesture Queekish'?

Click to shrink...

Then we figure that out and stop spending actions on it. It's not like Math will force herself to try and learn it during that possibility.

Modulating a Fiendishly Complex spell, that requires 'near-constant concentration', to convey convincing meaning at real-time communication speeds?
...
Lets just say I have my doubts.

Click to shrink...

Enchanting is a thing and language based enchanting exists in other lores that we can crib notes from.

 

[veekie]

Modulating a Fiendishly Complex spell, that requires 'near-constant concentration', to convey convincing meaning at real-time communication speeds?
...
Lets just say I have my doubts.

Click to shrink...

We have asked this before. Its about as complex as being on the phone, you can do other tasks provided they aren't too complex

 

[Alliterate]

We have asked this before. Its about as complex as being on the phone, you can do other tasks provided they aren't too complex

Click to shrink...

So... maintaining the spell itself for the regular uses is as complex as having a phone conversation, in a language you know.

But here, while spending that mental effort, you'd also be trying to hold an actual conversation in another language, one you don't speak natively, while you try translate your meaning into senses humans don't use in the same way, and can't even natively perceive all of without borrowing a Wolfs senses (would they need to be present?), so you've also got to multitask to understand exactly what they said...

I am still sceptical. It's hard enough to speak non-native human languages fluently without plenty of practise.

 

[Boney]

Hey @BoneyM, I've got several question that I wanted ask you.

What is the Dwarf favor to gold exchange rate? Does it differ based on the amount of favor exchanged at once? Does Dwarf rep affect how much gold we get from the favor exchange (Higher rep higher amount of gold)?

Click to shrink...

The Grey College leans into the favour economy because of the Vow of Poverty. Cashing in your favours this way would be one of those things that raise a lot of eyebrows in the Bursar's Office.

Could we buy books by purely spending dwarf favor instead of gold coins and dwarf favor?

Click to shrink...

No. This is how they make a living.

Could we automatically buy books or get an option to purchase books from any traders arriving through the The Dark Lands if they happen have books to sell?

Click to shrink...

There are no traders opting to fill carts with books for which there are maybe a handful of potential buyers in the entire Old World instead of things like silks, spices, and precious stones.

Do the colleges have any stored Skaven writings? If they do, could we get an option to seach through them for any Queekish vocabulary we don't recognize (possibly aquire magical vocabulary to translate)?

Click to shrink...

Any potential writings are effectively inaccessible. For obvious reasons, Skaven intelligence and research is completely compartmentalized.

If we complete the Queekish-Khazalid Dictionary can we hire linguistics experts to write the Queekish-Reikspiel Dictionary for us?

Click to shrink...

Technically yes, but these would be people who don't speak Queekish and have never even seen a Skaven.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

There are no traders opting to fill carts with books for which there are maybe a handful of potential buyers in the entire Old World instead of things like silks, spices, and precious

Click to shrink...

Would this change if they know there was a big library at the end of the journey that would buy the really expensive books?

 

[Boney]

Would this change if they know there was a big library at the end of the journey that would buy the really expensive books?

Click to shrink...

Over time, yes.

 

[Alliterate]

Over time, yes.

Click to shrink...

Really? It's one potential buyer, if they don't have a copy already, versus a market of "anyone with money and taste for luxury".

 

[Boney]

Really? It's one potential buyer, if they don't have a copy already, versus a market of "anyone with money and taste for luxury".

Click to shrink...

I'm assuming said big library would be sensible and make it known what they're looking for.

 

[Alliterate]

I'm assuming said big library would be sensible and make it known what they're looking for.

Click to shrink...

Sure. Commissioning purchases is rather different.

 

[Alectai]

This is part of what I mean when I say "Something like the Royal Society is best started as soon as possible, rather than waiting on more money and resources for it".

 

[Boney]

More of a bounty list than active commissions. Traders will be looking for ways to lock in a known payment after silk prices show some volatility.

 

[Andmeuths]

This is part of what I mean when I say "Something like the Royal Society is best started as soon as possible, rather than waiting on more money and resources for it".

Click to shrink...

Voters either disagree with your assessment or reject the idea of the "Royal Society". It's hard to tell which is exactly which here, and it's also hard to know why exactly voters who want the Great Library/Royal Society would want to delay the Boon and disagree with this assessment, unless I've missed counter-arguments to the position you've taken (and I've also advocated for). I might have missed such arguments, but as far as I can tell, the only argument out there is "Books are Expensive", of which the response is Book purchases can and indeed have to be spread over time, so it's best to get started sooner rather than later.

Therein also lies the problem: at what point, is the Karak Rich enough, considering the accumulative nature of this Boon? I've heard no response to this question so far, other than an assertion (utterly unexplained as far as I can tell) that some point eixst. Is that point the hidden point where the bottleneck of the maximum number of books and facilities that can be constructed per-turn matches a reasonable proportion of the Karak Revenue? Is it something else altogether? Do Great Library/Research Society advocates have to be even more detailed about the specifics of this boon than they've already gone down to, have concrete plans and a range of costing estimates per turn both best and worst-case scenario? What about the non-financial bottle necks facing the boon vis a vis the Eight Peaks?

And if this is what is demanded of Great Library Boon advocates, and we deliver on it, should we ought to demand that any counter alternative proposals are done with the same degree of due rigor seemingly asked of the Great Library Boon?

@Alectai Your thoughts on this matter? I apologize for phrasing alot of these thoughts in statements, but I can see these issues dominating the thread in the months between now and the next opportunity to bring up the boon, in the period of time before thread madness.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Why would we want to cash in the Boon now? We do not have concrete plans, and Karak lacks funds, (free) expertise, infrastructure and plain time to fullfill anything worth spending a Boon on.

Anything which can be afforded right now cannot possibly be worth a Transcendent Boon.

 

[DragonParadox]

Why would we want to cash in the Boon now? We do not have concrete plans, and Karak lacks funds, (free) expertise, infrastructure and plain time to fullfill anything worth spending a Boon on.

Anything which can be afforded right now cannot possibly be worth a Transcendent Boon.

Click to shrink...

The Karak is swimming in funds, it has more gold than it can realistically spend from the vaults alone.

 

[ctulhuslp]

The Karak is swimming in funds, it has more gold than it can realistically spend from the vaults alone.

Click to shrink...

Well, okay, you are technically correct.
Did it help them to magic up hundreds of cannons and thousands of engineers? No, because money without supplies to buy with them aren't worth much.

So yeah, I concede that technically K8P has enough money, lying around uselessly because there are bottlenecks in supply of literally every single thing which can be realistically bought with it.

 

[Andmeuths]

The Karak is swimming in funds, it has more gold than it can realistically spend from the vaults alone.

Click to shrink...

Presumably, there are other bottlenecks other than gold. If it's expertise - and manpower, the boon might as well not be purchasable within the lifespan of Mathilde, because these are tied strongly to Dwarven Population limits. And expertise will not come without something to draw said expertise, so there's a giant chicken and egg problem.

This is why there are people fearing that either we spent it now, or spent it never.

Did it help them to magic up hundreds of cannons and thousands of engineers? No, because money without supplies to buy with them aren't worth much.

Click to shrink...

So yes, what are actually the bottlenecks regarding the Great Library in your opinion? Why would these bottlenecks be better off resolved by holding off this boon?