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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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NuclearConsensus said:
If we're going for a library, why not also make it a school? That way people in Eight Peaks can actually benefit from it, since I imagine the literacy rate among the Undumgi might not be very high.

Eventually it might not even be just a library/museum, but also a university!
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Isn't a library that's also a museum full of teachers basically a definition of a university?

*Checks* Yeah, a multidisciplinary institution of learning, that sounds about right.

I think including teachers in there may be a bit much, though. Maybe individual scholars can take students, but that sounds like something we might want to let develop naturally, rather than try to set out to do everything from the beginning. Gather the knowledge first, and let us acquire a big cloud of scholars who want to search through it for stuff, then slowly start increasing what we expect from them, rather than trying to brute force an entire academic community from a cold start.
 
chocolote12 said:
Isn't a library that's also a museum full of teachers basically a definition of a university?

*Checks* Yeah, a multidisciplinary institution of learning, that sounds about right.

I think including teachers in there may be a bit much, though. Maybe individual scholars can take students, but that sounds like something we might want to let develop naturally, rather than try to set out to do everything from the beginning. Gather the knowledge first, and let us acquire a big cloud of scholars who want to search through it for stuff, then slowly start increasing what we expect from them, rather than trying to brute force an entire academic community from a cold start.
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ya, Library first, with permission to expand as time, funds and will allow.
 
Having multiple expanded versions of the Rooms of Utter Neutrality, Serenity, Oh Dear, and maybe ones that enhance research in each of the winds could also be a great addition to the great library project, make K8P the second capital of magical learning. Then maybe fold in the Sanctuary proposal in it too?

Edit: Less of a new University, more of Graduate school and Research center.
 
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I don't think the library would be a good idea. Besides the fact that the only people who could use it would be the wizards since most people can't read. We know that getting the wizards needed would be incredible hard since so few graduate every year. Also we're told the college does not want to make another branch or bolt hole at these time.
 
Nurgle said:
I don't think the library would be a good idea. Besides the fact that the only people who could use it would be the wizards since most people can't read. We know that getting the wizards needed would be incredible hard since so few graduate every year. Also we're told the college does not want to make another branch or bolt hole at these time.
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I don't have a source for this, but I definitely feel like Dwarfs have fairly high literacy.
 
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unless there is a resurgence for Big Boat, or one of the others... I think Libary is going to take it.

now for an official name... (sure everyone is going to call it 'The Great Library of K8Ps/Karak Nar, but it will have an official name that everyone forgets.. like a real Library.

first nomination, 'The Mathilde Weber Library of Mortal History and Knowledge.'
 
Nurgle said:
I don't think the library would be a good idea. Besides the fact that the only people who could use it would be the wizards since most people can't read. We know that getting the wizards needed would be incredible hard since so few graduate every year. Also we're told the college does not want to make another branch or bolt hole at these time.
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its not just a Wizard library, (even if there is a magic section) is a general Libary.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
unless there is a resurgence for Big Boat, or one of the others... I think Libary is going to take it.

now for an official name... (sure everyone is going to call it 'The Great Library of K8Ps/Karak Nar, but it will have an official name that everyone forgets.. like a real Library.

first nomination, 'The Mathilde Weber Library of Mortal History and Knowledge.'
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It doesn't spell Mathilde. 0/10
 
Nurgle said:
I don't think the library would be a good idea. Besides the fact that the only people who could use it would be the wizards since most people can't read. We know that getting the wizards needed would be incredible hard since so few graduate every year. Also we're told the college does not want to make another branch or bolt hole at these time.
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It's not a branch college, it's a giant pile of books and some people to take care of them. Having a giant pile of books makes us personally powerful (stat wise), and also attracts other academics (who are far more than just wizards), but those are side effects of the actual entity.

Now, those are absolutely gigantic side effects, but we don't need permission or anything in order to acquire them; it's a case of 'if you build it, they will come'. It's actually an option to start building something like a miniature version of it with our current collection, which is already pretty amazing by Old World standards; in fact, it might be more accurate to call this the super-sized version.

Or, to put it another way, you don't need to buy hummingbirds to have them in your garden, just set up feeders. Nerds are harder to get moving, but when they do they tend to stick around and make themselves comfortable, so if we set out stuff they'd like we're bound to get a collection even without paying them to come.
Nurgle said:
So you want the race that is know for keeping secrets and not willing to share secrets between each guilds to design ,operate and fund a place that is essentially free learning?
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They have a strong regard for proprietary knowledge, not a hatred for sharing it. If the knowledge is free to share they don't care who we share it with; if it were a secret then it wouldn't be in the available materials.
 
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Nurgle said:
I don't think the library would be a good idea. Besides the fact that the only people who could use it would be the wizards since most people can't read. We know that getting the wizards needed would be incredible hard since so few graduate every year.
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The Library, as it is, is not limited to tomes on magic. It also has a lot of rare books on military strategy, and specialized references on fighting Orks, Skaven, Undead, and other gribblies. Any general or aspiring tactician would benefit from it too. Not to mention the other books on culture, economy and biology that other scholars would love to have a look at.
 
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defenestrator said:
The Library, as it is, is not limited to tomes on magic. It also has a lot of rare books on military strategy, and specialized references on fighting Orks, Skaven, Undead, and other gribblies. Any general or aspiring tactician would benefit from it too. Not to mention the other boos on culture, economy and biology that other scholars would love to have a look at.
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plus once the cult of Verena find out about it they will probably send a small army to protect it every time a Waahh even looks at the Peaks.
 
Andmeuths said:
Regarding the Library and the previously mooted ideas to combine Sanctuary+Books+Research into one Boon:

I wonder whether we can also fold the research agenda, in preserving, recovering and creating new knowledge into the Great Library idea, by expanding the remit of the Great Library. Basically let's combine the research Institution idea with the Great Library idea, where Research infrastructure (think testing ranges, and additional labs, and rooms of serenity) is attached to the Library for the use of resident and visiting scholars, and where research grants are given by the Library. And, the Great Library also serves as a sanctuary for Wizards working within the Karaz Ankor (with the confidential understanding that if another Dieter IV makes the mistake of revoking the Articles, Wizards can find shelter within the EIght Peaks under this royal institution). In this way, we combine the Research + Library + Sanctuary into one coherent, clearly marked out, and very physically public boon, which also doesn't break the Karak's finances (since there's only so much money we can put into that institution in a turn due to AP limitations) and infact could work as a source of revenue and military might for the Karak if we play our cards right.

The Library is meant not just for Wizards, but Engineers, Runesmiths, Loremasters, Scholars and even a non-technical section for the general literate public. Basically, let's propose a Royal Karak Library with a Royal Research Society attached to it under the permanent patronage of Belegar, with Mathilde as the Chairwoman of the Library, and Belegar committing to help Mathilde fund the personnel to run and manage the society. I anticipate though, that such an Institution would consume AP, and Mathilde would need to spend AP to build this institution, though it would count as an organization.

I was wondering, can we formally make our ducklings employees of this Library? And something tells me that Gotri would be delighted at having a massive Engineers wing attached to this library that his Engineer's Guild can control access to, and if we can turn the R&D budget of the Eight Peaks into a permanent and professionally allocated budget item within the Eight Peaks royal budget (and hence the within reason clause is automatically built-in, since the funding for this depends on the health of the Eight Peaks economy), and be able to employ Julia-like administrators to run the day to day operations and routine expansions....

That being said, I think one big concern about this proposal is that it definitely adds to our AP crunch, even if we can get this Institute as an organizational action. But if we can do something like fold the Duckling Club into our Great Library Institute (by automatically making all ducklings employees of the Library as their formal position within the Karak), and have Belegar agree that the actions we drip into the Library count towards our Loremaster Job....

You know, Library Quest sounds like a very fun direction for the quest to go to - imagine Indiana Jones-like expeditions that emerge from the Library seeking lost knowledge, for example. Especially if we can hire Julia equivalents to help administer it on our behalf on Belegar's dime.
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You see, that?

That sounds really, really, really fucking great.

Like, holy hell does it sound amazing.

It'd also be a wonderful backdrop for the game going forward. We can fold pretty much all of our delegation stuff into it, and it gives us an excuse to go on adventurers in exotic places.

It's even useful in Eight Peaks because it's a fantastic reference source for their own intellectuals. "I don't know something but let me do some research up in the Library and see if that jogs anything loose" and all that.
 
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Omegahugger said:
Right, so there probably isn't any of their knowledge left in their bodies. If we want it, we will probably have to physically drag their souls out of the Underearth. Which, while difficult, shouldn't technically be impossible.

... Unless dwarves store information in their skulls instead of their fleshy brains. Does anyone know if dwarves could plausibly keep their memories in their bones? It is important for developing new plans for our Karak's( my own) future!
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Getting info from dwarf skeletons is non-viable regardless of how much necromancy gets thrown at the problem, for reasons which probably tie into just why dwarfs hate Necromancers despite them not really having done all that much to the Karaz Ankor that might be worth a grudging.

It's because of the whole "dwarves turn to stone when exposed to magic" thing - any dwarf remains that magically reanimated enough to count as a dwarf rather than a skeleton/corpse/etc. automatically turns to stone unless that process also applies Valaya's antimagic blessing/fix (or some sort of equivalent process which may or may not exist). Except since Valaya's rite is a cultural thing rather something inherent to dwarfs, the only process that doesn't turn the dwarf corpse to stone is to rip a soul out of Gazul's realm.

Which would be considered a heinous crime in and of itself, but since necromancers typically don't just raise an undead and let it do whatever so by default every successful case of Necromancy on a dwarf is also subjecting that dwarf soul to a sort of kidnapping/slavery deal in addition to the crime of bringing them back into this cruel, cruel world.

Briefvoice said:
So it's all very well to say "oh, they could do this socially acceptable ritual instead" but if that ritual still leaves them with a desire to kill themselves then it hasn't really fixed anything.
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The thing is any ritual that leaves the prospective Slayer still wanting to kill themselves is by default socially unacceptable. The Slayer Oath arose as a specific ritual dwarfs could do to expunge the shame of having made an Oath they couldn't fulfill for whatever reason (which is basically the same sort of thing that eats at dwarfs as Grudges they can't strike out or Boons/debts they can't repay). It has an actual function for dwarfs in addition to being culturally glorified by having been first performed by an Ancestor God, and any replacement would have to fulfill that function as well as be appropriately glorifiable to dwarfs.

The Slayer Oath is attractive to dwarfs because it scratches their "I must right this wrong" itch by saying "If there's no other way, you can right a wrong by paying with your life", not because the dwarfs in question particularly want to die (though there is a fair bit of overlap). Any alternative ritual would have to have a fundamental structure of "If there's no there way to right a wrong, you can fit it by doing blahblahblah."
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
now for an official name... (sure everyone is going to call it 'The Great Library of K8Ps/Karak Nar, but it will have an official name that everyone forgets.. like a real Library.

first nomination, 'The Mathilde Weber Library of Mortal History and Knowledge.'
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Karak Kron: Karak is used as the toponym for dwarf-holds (e.g. Karak Azul, Karak Eight Peaks) roughly analogous to "city" and Kron is the word for "book," so you can think of it as "the hold made for books," but Karak usually means "Enduring/Everlasting," so it can also be translated as "Endless Books," which seems like what you want to call a Great Library.

(It also can mean "Enduring History," which is a promise that Karak Eight Peaks, and the dwarves, will stand forever.)
 
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Andmeuths said:
Regarding the Library and the previously mooted ideas to combine Sanctuary+Books+Research into one Boon:

I wonder whether we can also fold the research agenda, in preserving, recovering and creating new knowledge into the Great Library idea, by expanding the remit of the Great Library. Basically let's combine the research Institution idea with the Great Library idea, where Research infrastructure (think testing ranges, and additional labs, and rooms of serenity) is attached to the Library for the use of resident and visiting scholars, and where research grants are given by the Library. And, the Great Library also serves as a sanctuary for Wizards working within the Karaz Ankor (with the confidential understanding that if another Dieter IV makes the mistake of revoking the Articles, Wizards can find shelter within the EIght Peaks under this royal institution). In this way, we combine the Research + Library + Sanctuary into one coherent, clearly marked out, and very physically public boon, which also doesn't break the Karak's finances (since there's only so much money we can put into that institution in a turn due to AP limitations) and infact could work as a source of revenue and military might for the Karak if we play our cards right.

The Library is meant not just for Wizards, but Engineers, Runesmiths, Loremasters, Scholars and even a non-technical section for the general literate public. Basically, let's propose a Royal Karak Library with a Royal Research Society attached to it under the permanent patronage of Belegar, with Mathilde as the Chairwoman of the Library, and Belegar committing to help Mathilde fund the personnel to run and manage the society. I anticipate though, that such an Institution would consume AP, and Mathilde would need to spend AP to build this institution, though it would count as an organization.

I was wondering, can we formally make our ducklings employees of this Library? And something tells me that Gotri would be delighted at having a massive Engineers wing attached to this library that his Engineer's Guild can control access to, and if we can turn the R&D budget of the Eight Peaks into a permanent and professionally allocated budget item within the Eight Peaks royal budget (and hence the within reason clause is automatically built-in, since the funding for this depends on the health of the Eight Peaks economy), and be able to employ Julia-like administrators to run the day to day operations and routine expansions....

That being said, I think one big concern about this proposal is that it definitely adds to our AP crunch, even if we can get this Institute as an organizational action. But if we can do something like fold the Duckling Club into our Great Library Institute (by automatically making all ducklings employees of the Library as their formal position within the Karak), and have Belegar agree that the actions we drip into the Library count towards our Loremaster Job....

You know, Library Quest sounds like a very fun direction for the quest to go to - imagine Indiana Jones-like expeditions that emerge from the Library seeking lost knowledge, for example. Especially if we can hire Julia equivalents to help administer it on our behalf on Belegar's dime.
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I wouldn't be opposed to such.
 
picklepikkl said:
Karak Kron: Karak is used as the toponym for dwarf-holds (e.g. Karak Azul, Karak Eight Peaks) roughly analogous to "city" and Kron is the word for "book," so you can think of it as "the hold made for books," but Karak literally means "Enduring/Everlasting," so it can also be translated as "Endless Books," which seems like what you want to call a Great Library.

(It also can mean "Enduring History," which is a promise that Karak Eight Peaks, and the dwarves, will stand forever.)
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Mathilde Karak Kron or Mathilde's Enduring History is pretty good.

I do feel Like i would like it the be named in Rikspeal though.

just so it stands out as a distinctly human oddity in a dwarf hold just like Mathy is a distinctly human oddball among dwarfs.
 
Ok I think you guys are assuming something that would work well with humans will work with dwarfs. The race of perfectionist who hate sharing secrets with each other and going against dwarf culture in the belief it would be a good idea. Besides the political goodwill Belegar would have to waste to try to get dwarfs to open up to each other you be making books that humans could read. You are asking them to share there secrets with humans and it took them centuries just to share things besides making steel.
 
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