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Sounds like we need a perfect 100 on all of the 10d100 just to make the very start of this idea of this possible. Probably better chances to just kill them all. I never liked the Rats anyway.

Still patiently waiting on what the coming shitstorm is going to be.

Meh, I love rats. Moreover, I am kinda strange, in that I do not rate redeemability solely by vileness of deeds, but by a lot of factors. "Social Programming" and "supernatural soul fuckery/mind control" is almost always a factor that makes someone redeemable in my eyes, regardless of deeds.

As for this quest... well, it may be just me, but it feels like at the rate we are getting stronger, it is achievable even with middling rolls, if we survive long enough (unless, that is, some hard caps get introduced that say"no, Mathilde has hit her peak, epilogue time"). Sure, its impossible in 10 or 20 turns... but we keep pumpin iron at almost setting breaking speed, so it may be possible in 70, or 140, or 200, or 400 even.
 
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We could do Alexandria library fee. A copy of every book yo have on you, produced at the libraries expense. There would be the expectation of bringing new books when asking for entrance.
books are expensive in warhammer, it would be really gating for who can go in, which defeats the point a bit.

just get people to pay a fair fee at the entrance or for a library rune. its the fairest way.
 
Meh, I love rats. Moreover, I am kinda strange, in that I do not rate redeemability solely by vileness of deeds, but by a lot of factors. "Social Programming" and "supernatural soul fuckery/mind control" is almost always a factor that makes someone redeemable in my eyes, regardless of deeds.
IRL rats are indeed lovely and very empathetic.

It would be interesting to get a litter of Skaven bebies and raise them separately from the under-empire with none of the BS that comes with its culture or the Horned Rat hanging over their shoulders.

Hopefully they'd prove that their nature is as much if not more nurture like Johan's rat puppies (speaking of do we have any plans or means of breeding them, or will these ones be the only ones?)
 
Turn-by-Turn Action Analysis


So since we arrived at K8P there have been 7 turns of actions voted on, Turn 19 through Turn 25 (the current turn). I thought it might be interesting to look at our actions over the course of those 7 turns and see what has ben devoted to what. I'm going to look at what we assigned Max, Johann, and the Ducklings to do but not EIC actions since those are very separate and usually do not interact with the rest of our actions in any way.

Max: Spiders, Spiders, Spiders, Write a Paper, Practice Shooting, Translate Anatomy Book, Translate Anatomy Book

So as we can see Max hasn't been used much for writing papers, but he has been very useful in generally supporting the Current Task. We started off by having him help with with the We for the first 3 Turns, and then most recently he's spent 2 actions translating the Anatomy Book. His Patient trait has been a big winner. Arguably having him practice shooting ended up being a waste since a low roll meant he learned nothing, but it probably at least improved his morale. Spending two turns translating the anatomy book didn't do much directly, but it did serve to double-check Qrech as well as leave Max with a knowledge of written Queekish that he can use to help us write Queekish dictionaries.

Johann: "Graduate", Skaven Observations, Help New Wizards Settle In, Spider Autopsies, Practice Pugilism, Skaven Raids, Skaven Raids

Johann has been a bit more of a mixed bag. Despite his excellent analysis spells (especially for metal objects) the only research project we've ever really put him on was doing autopsies of We corpses. He had to spend the first action wasted on pretending to graduate. On the plus side it's evident that he's our first choice of back-up for violence now that he's learned how to fight unarmed. I really think that now that the Skaven have cleared out we can get years of actions from him concentrating on the Skaven artifact backlog.

Ducklings (starting Turn 23): Help Johann Raise Rat-Wolf Pack, Skaven Raiding, Skaven Raiding

Duckling actions are kind of a mixed bag. Johann and Max are out employees so we can just order them around as we please, but for the other wizards the actions must be at least mutually beneficial and can sometimes even help only them. Still, we should again note that the last year of actions have been tied up doing raiding for Queekish to translate.

Now for Mathilde's own personal actions. Going to list them by Turn.

Turn 19 - Negotiate with We (TASK), Set up labs/quarters for visiting wizards, Undumgi Leadership, Explore Lower Citadel

Turn 20 - Train Wolf, Help Move the We (TASK), Assist Gunnar, Set up Ranald Shrine, Spy on Skaven (with Johann)

The first year at K8P was all about set-up and consolidating. We got a chance to weigh on on human leadership, spend time on our Current Task of the We, picked out a shrine, and started gathering information on our skaven neighbors. Mathilde didn't have time for research actions and only one real self-improvement action (training wolf). Helping Gunnar was a set-up to getting help back from him for training over the next couple of Turns, though.

Turn 21 - Fetch Roswita (TASK), Research Aerthyic Vitae, Greatsword Training, College Classes (spells)

Turn 22 - Greatsword Training, Map Karagril, Sylvania Actions x 3 (TASK), Set up Duckling Club

Second year at K8P had a heavy focus on personal improvement with 3 actions devoted to it. Mathilde mastered a greatsword style to improve her martial and give situational bonuses and managed to fit in college classes. She also spent a lot of time dealing with Sylvania, especially in Turn 22. Those actions were heavily dice dpeendnet, though. We needed a really good roll (whcih fortunately we got) to drag Roswita to K8P for the sword award ceremony. We also finally managed to start long-delayed research on the Snake's Blood, albeit we couldn't follow it up because of the necessity of prepping for the coming Karagril struggle as well as the heavy Sylvania focus.

Turn 23 - College Lessons (Enchantment), College Lessons (Spells), Building the Eye of Gazul x 2 (TASK), Get to know Qrech.

Turn 24 - College Lessons (Spells), Building Eye of Gazul x 2 (TASK), Qrech Translations

Third years also had 3 full actions devoted to personal improvement... admittedly I'm not entirely sure of the logic behind studying Enchantment since we never seem to use it. It's starting to seem to me like Personal Improvement actions are the primary competitor for Research actions. Over the 6 turns I've looked at so far, we spent 7 actions on personal improvement (training Wolf, training greatsword x 2, College lessons x4) and only one Research actions. If those had been balanced more, say 4 and 4, then we could be several actions deep into Aerthic Vitae and started on Theurgy or Tongs. And you notice I'm not counting "set up shrine" or "select Umdumgi leader" or "help Gunnar" in that total, even though all three were arguably devoted to either increasing Mathilde's influence or setting up for training (Gunnar).

Turn 25 (current turn) - Qrech Translations (TASK), College Lectures, Set up Gambler Temple to Ranald, Aerthyic Vitae

The reason we're "getting away" with only spending one personal action on the Queekish task is that we've spent all subordinate (Max, Johann, and Duckling) actions to support it. Here in the start of Year 4 we're finally getting back to a pure Research action... but again it's being overwhelmed 2 to 1 by "increase Mathilde's power/influence" actions with the Temple and Lecturing both being means to increase her "soft power" and reputation.

So in conclusion, for those of you frustrating by not enough research getting done I think I've made a pretty strong case that the actual "problem" is the popularity of actions that either directly improve Mathilde's personal capabilities or increase her soft power influence/reputation. For the most part it's not that she's spending too much time on her job. Even if more actions suddenly opened up you'd run into the same problem where personal power/influence is always a shiny temptation. We didn't really have to vote to go give lectures this turn, but people preferred it to doing two Research actions.

Make sense?
 
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Regarding the Library and the previously mooted ideas to combine Sanctuary+Books+Research into one Boon:

I wonder whether we can also fold the research agenda, in preserving, recovering and creating new knowledge into the Great Library idea, by expanding the remit of the Great Library. Basically let's combine the research Institution idea with the Great Library idea, where Research infrastructure (think testing ranges, and additional labs, and rooms of serenity) is attached to the Library for the use of resident and visiting scholars, and where research grants are given by the Library. And, the Great Library also serves as a sanctuary for Wizards working within the Karaz Ankor (with the confidential understanding that if another Dieter IV makes the mistake of revoking the Articles, Wizards can find shelter within the EIght Peaks under this royal institution). In this way, we combine the Research + Library + Sanctuary into one coherent, clearly marked out, and very physically public boon, which also doesn't break the Karak's finances (since there's only so much money we can put into that institution in a turn due to AP limitations) and infact could work as a source of revenue and military might for the Karak if we play our cards right.

The Library is meant not just for Wizards, but Engineers, Runesmiths, Loremasters, Scholars and even a non-technical section for the general literate public. Basically, let's propose a Royal Karak Library with a Royal Research Society attached to it under the permanent patronage of Belegar, with Mathilde as the Chairwoman of the Library, and Belegar committing to help Mathilde fund the personnel to run and manage the society. I anticipate though, that such an Institution would consume AP, and Mathilde would need to spend AP to build this institution, though it would count as an organization.

I was wondering, can we formally make our ducklings employees of this Library? And something tells me that Gotri would be delighted at having a massive Engineers wing attached to this library that his Engineer's Guild can control access to, and if we can turn the R&D budget of the Eight Peaks into a permanent and professionally allocated budget item within the Eight Peaks royal budget (and hence the within reason clause is automatically built-in, since the funding for this depends on the health of the Eight Peaks economy), and be able to employ Julia-like administrators to run the day to day operations and routine expansions....

That being said, I think one big concern about this proposal is that it definitely adds to our AP crunch, even if we can get this Institute as an organizational action. But if we can do something like fold the Duckling Club into our Great Library Institute (by automatically making all ducklings employees of the Library as their formal position within the Karak), and have Belegar agree that the actions we drip into the Library count towards our Loremaster Job....

You know, Library Quest sounds like a very fun direction for the quest to go to - imagine Indiana Jones-like expeditions that emerge from the Library seeking lost knowledge, for example. Especially if we can hire Julia equivalents to help administer it on our behalf on Belegar's dime.
 
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That disintegration is not what is required to repay the Grudges, that's what's required for them to become nullified instead of inherited. If the Horned Rat 'died' but the Under-Empire kept on being the Under-Empire, then it would retain all the Grudges. If the Under-Empire shattered but the largest piece of it continued in the same way as the old Under-Empire did, it would inherit the Grudges.

If the Horned Rat died, all the Council of Thirteen were removed from power, and the Under-Empire underwent a legitimate and unquestionable cultural transformation and genuinely sought to right the wrongs of the past, then there exists the theoretical possibility of the Grudges being repaid in means other than blood.
So if I am getting this right the central thing is that the Council of Thirteen and the Underempire itself are both destroyed as entities.

If somehow Skavenblight blew up but the heads of three great clans survived to all proclaimed themselves the sole leader of the Empire then settled into a stalemate then the grudges continue to the new inheritors.

If we blew up Skavenblight killing the entire council of 13 and it turned into anarchy with every clan for itself to the point that by the end even if the skaven aren't extinct the Underempire can't be said to exist the grudges are fulfilled by the action of a Dwarf friend blowing up Skavenblight.

Am I getting this right?
 
The only thing I would add to this is that some of the personal improvment actions, before and after the K8P expidition, have been taken on the understanding that they would improve our ability at the current task and/or our research in future turns. For example the enchantment classes were to help with the Eye of Gazul and classes on Power Stones have been hypothosised to be helpful with AV research.

So if I am getting this right the central thing is that the Council of Thirteen and the Underempire itself are both destroyed as entities.

If somehow Skavenblight blew up but the heads of three great clans survived to all proclaimed themselves the sole leader of the Empire then settled into a stalemate then the grudges continue to the new inheritors.

If we blew up Skavenblight killing the entire council of 13 and it turned into anarchy with every clan for itself to the point that by the end even if the skaven aren't extinct the Underempire can't be said to exist the grudges are fulfilled by the action of a Dwarf friend blowing up Skavenblight.

Am I getting this right?
I believe so, with the addendum that if a Skaven civilisation with no or very weak connections to the Under-Empire formed then the Grudges would not transfer to them.
 
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So if I am getting this right the central thing is that the Council of Thirteen and the Underempire itself are both destroyed as entities.

If somehow Skavenblight blew up but the heads of three great clans survived to all proclaimed themselves the sole leader of the Empire then settled into a stalemate then the grudges continue to the new inheritors.

If we blew up Skavenblight killing the entire council of 13 and it turned into anarchy with every clan for itself to the point that by the end even if the skaven aren't extinct the Underempire can't be said to exist the grudges are fulfilled by the action of a Dwarf friend blowing up Skavenblight.

Am I getting this right?

In short, if a Grudged polity is destroyed and there's no subsequent polity that can reasonably be described as successor or inheritor of that polity, the Grudges are null and void.
 
I don't think pouring a ton of money and possibly even lives into getting random books is a good investment of K8P's resources at the moment. Maybe in twenty years, when K8P is rolling in more gold than it knows what to do with from the spider silk, but not at present. And using the Boon means it will be K8P paying for it.

Mathilde has no need for a boat.

This insistence on using the Boon immediately irritates me. There is absolutely no pressing need to spend it.
 
Just in case we can name Anton our boon-heir and then Belegar will know what to do if we die before cashing it, I agree that there is nothing we really need and K8P can use the resources more.
 
I don't think pouring a ton of money and possibly even lives into getting random books is a good investment of K8P's resources at the moment. Maybe in twenty years, when K8P is rolling in more gold than it knows what to do with from the spider silk, but not at present. And using the Boon means it will be K8P paying for it.

Mathilde has no need for a boat.

This insistence on using the Boon immediately irritates me. There is absolutely no pressing need to spend it.
The plan is that for any boon, we'll put a rider saying to only do it when the karak can reasonably do it. It's not for right now.
 
I know some people call Librarians vicious, but if dwarves are dying trying to purchase these things then there's something weirder going on than just your average, everyday library acquisitions.

Plus, Boney said this:
A 'as and when the Karak can reasonably afford it' rider would be possible to tack on to just about any repayment method.
We're quite capable of going 'This, but in a way that would be reasonable'. Belegar is dedicated, not a robot. He knows what it means if we say we don't want to hurt the Karak with our request.
This insistence on using the Boon immediately irritates me. There is absolutely no pressing need to spend it.
Psychologically, it's an Anti-Grudge. You want to spend them quickly so that Belegar can stop staying awake at night wondering just how he could possibly repay the wonders that his close friend Mathilde has bestowed on him.
 
Great post, Briefvoice.
admittedly I'm not entirely sure of the logic behind studying Enchantment since we never seem to use it.
We wanted it that turn because we believed it would help us set up and operate the Eye, and we knew we wanted it eventually because we need to make a staff down the line and improve our robes. Your other point about self-improvement actions competing for AP, specifically college classes: we had to get those to avoid the negatrait from Karagril, if you recall, so two of those college classes were "locked in".
classes on Power Stones have been hypothosised to be helpful with AV research
Not just hypothesized, outright stated that we can't experiment with making the AV into a powerstone unless we know how to make powerstones. We could poke AV with a powerstone without making it ourself, though.
 
I don't think pouring a ton of money and possibly even lives into getting random books is a good investment of K8P's resources at the moment. Maybe in twenty years, when K8P is rolling in more gold than it knows what to do with from the spider silk, but not at present. And using the Boon means it will be K8P paying for it.

Here's the thing: the Great Library is pitched not as a get it done now Boon, but rather a Boon that develops over multiple years, a project that Mathilde wants to continue long after her death under Belegar's patronage. The earliest years of the Library probably involves just building the initial facilities - I'd expect the "tons of money" part to come once the Library goes through some massive phase of expansion ten or twenty years after it's foundation.

Mathilde doesn't have to specify that Belegar puts out all stops to get the Boon done right now. If she is concerned about breaking the Karak's economy, she could clearly specify to Belegar that she expects this boon to span over the decades, so she can wait for massive funding to come once Karak Eight Peaks industries take off and Belegar's long-term budget situation improves. For now, 300 GC a turn to build up the physical shell (not even the books) and secure the personnel of the Library might be enough for her - for example, one of the big initial outlays may be to get a Printing Press and Printer's guild running within the Library.

This is the big draw of a continual boon as opposed to a one off-boon. One-off boons are huge expenditure requirements that may risk breaking the Karak, but continual boons spread that cost over a very long period of time and make it affordable to the Karak, while providing a continual benefit both to Mathilde and the Karak.
 
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This insistence on using the Boon immediately irritates me. There is absolutely no pressing need to spend it.

There's two arguments on that one.

1. It stresses Belegar out to not have it cashed on.

2. Mechanical/gameplay difficulties.

We've discussed the first, but not the second. The simple way to handle the Boon is that BoneyM provides us a curated list at the next voting opportunity that looks something like:

Discussed in Thread Option A
Discussed in Thread Option B
...etc, etc.
(Write-In)
Don't Use Boon Now

Now if the thread votes for "Don't Use Boon Now" that's a fair choice... but then how does BoneyM determine when we do use the Boon? Is he obliged to put "Do you want to use the Boon now?" at the beginning of every Turn Vote? Is it always available for every Turn Plan as a write-in vote to include use of the Boon? That seems bad... means Boon use could easily get tangled up with a lot of other factors.

Just from a player satisfaction perspective having a vote that is only about how to use the Boon and nothing else is probably best.

So in other words, if we don't use the Boon immediately can you describe the criteria under which BoneyM should offer opportunities to use the Boon?
 
Regarding the Library and the previously mooted ideas to combine Sanctuary+Books+Research into one Boon:

I wonder whether we can also fold the research agenda, in preserving, recovering and creating new knowledge into the Great Library idea, by expanding the remit of the Great Library. Basically let's combine the research Institution idea with the Great Library idea, where Research infrastructure (think testing ranges, and additional labs, and rooms of serenity) is attached to the Library for the use of resident and visiting scholars, and where research grants are given by the Library. And, the Great Library also serves as a sanctuary for Wizards working within the Karaz Ankor (with the confidential understanding that if another Dieter IV makes the mistake of revoking the Articles, Wizards can find shelter within the EIght Peaks under this royal institution). In this way, we combine the Research + Library + Sanctuary into one coherent, clearly marked out, and very physically public boon, which also doesn't break the Karak's finances (since there's only so much money we can put into that institution in a turn due to AP limitations) and infact could work as a source of revenue and military might for the Karak if we play our cards right.

The Library is meant not just for Wizards, but Engineers, Runesmiths, Loremasters, Scholars and even a non-technical section for the general literate public. Basically, let's propose a Royal Karak Library with a Royal Research Society attached to it under the permanent patronage of Belegar, with Mathilde as the Chairwoman of the Library, and Belegar committing to help Mathilde fund the personnel to run and manage the society. I anticipate though, that such an Institution would consume AP, and Mathilde would need to spend AP to build this institution, though it would count as an organization.

I was wondering, can we formally make our ducklings employees of this Library? And something tells me that Gotri would be delighted at having a massive Engineers wing attached to this library that his Engineer's Guild can control access to, and if we can turn the R&D budget of the Eight Peaks into a permanent and professionally allocated budget item within the Eight Peaks royal budget (and hence the within reason clause is automatically built-in, since the funding for this depends on the health of the Eight Peaks economy), and be able to employ Julia-like administrators to run the day to day operations and routine expansions....

That being said, I think one big concern about this proposal is that it definitely adds to our AP crunch, even if we can get this Institute as an organizational action. But if we can do something like fold the Duckling Club into our Great Library Institute (by automatically making all ducklings employees of the Library as their formal position within the Karak), and have Belegar agree that the actions we drip into the Library count towards our Loremaster Job....

You know, Library Quest sounds like a very fun direction for the quest to go to - imagine Indiana Jones-like expeditions that emerge from the Library seeking lost knowledge, for example. Especially if we can hire Julia equivalents to help administer it on our behalf on Belegar's dime.

So lets break this down into the key parts.

we want:

A public(ish) library

- with a goal of broad knowledge over every field , The Library is meant not just for Wizards, but Engineers, Runesmiths, Loremasters, Scholars and even a non-technical section for the general literate public.

-with a yearly budget(for all the practicals like loremasters. repairs, expanding and of course books) that's fair to the yearly budget of K8P and can be increased or decreased as reality dictates.

-has powers to expand in areas of research, study, experimentation, etc as again, funds and time allow.

- restricted sections for magic and forbidden knowledge for all but the highest clearance.

-The scholars also will be given shelter to study their craft within the EIght Peaks under royal protection as long as they follow the Kings rules as set out by K8Ps (the unsaid part of this being a sanctuary in a worst-case scenario for the 'Magic Scholars'
 
Great post, Briefvoice.

We wanted it that turn because we believed it would help us set up and operate the Eye, and we knew we wanted it eventually because we need to make a staff down the line and improve our robes. Your other point about self-improvement actions competing for AP, specifically college classes: we had to get those to avoid the negatrait from Karagril, if you recall, so two of those college classes were "locked in".

Yeah, that's fair enough and I'm not saying those were bad choices, but it explains more of why Research actions have such a hard time getting through. Synergistic actions that can directly support other actions will always be appealing, and Research is by its nature a Mystery Box.
 
Let's not forget to clarify that all sections should be off limits to dhar users and chaos worshippers, and that the king can deny entry, at his leisure, to greenskin, people written in the book of grudges and vampires.

We do not want the king to take the "free for everyone" part of the library too literally, and dorfs are good at taking stuff waaaay too literally.
 
If we're going for a library, why not also make it a school? That way people in Eight Peaks can actually benefit from it, since I imagine the literacy rate among the Undumgi might not be very high.

Eventually it might not even be just a library/museum, but also a university!
 
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Let's not forget to clarify that all sections should be off limits to dhar users and chaos worshippers, and that the king can deny entry, at his leisure, to greenskin, people written in the book of grudges and vampires.

We do not want the king to take the "free for everyone" part of the library too literally, and dorfs are good at taking stuff waaaay too literally.

The scholars also will be given shelter to study their craft within the EIght Peaks under royal protection as long as they follow the Kings rules as set out by K8Ps (the unsaid part of this being a sanctuary in a worst-case scenario for the 'Magic Scholars'
I got you fam.


If we're going for a library, why not also make it a school? That way people in Eight Peaks can actually benefit from it, since I imagine the literacy rate among the Undumgi might not be very high.

Eventually it might not even be just a library/museum, but also a university!

why i put 'has powers to expand in areas of research, study, experimentation, etc as again, funds and time allow.'
 
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