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So, now that we have a bit more context for Belegar's stress what do you guys think is the best solution to reduce it? He seems to be considering 'why bother with the reclamation if I'm not after Grudges, if I can't uphold the ancestors, and my primary concern is keeping my people alive'.
@BoneyM if only we could reply to his open question.

"Your question is one we short-lived manlings have asked ourselves since our first days."

"Why did the old farmer plant tree's he will never see become a full orchard?"

"Why did that knight start a village that will not become a town, let alone a city, before he becomes dust in a grave?"

"Why would a King start building a fortress that will only be completed by the time he is half-forgotten by all but the academics."

"Its called faith Belegar, not necessary in the gods or ancestors, but in those that they watch over, that will come after us, our people, our children. that by passing on the tools they will need one day we will help them succeed in a way we could not.

"The farmer planted the tree so his children will be able to pick the apples."

"The Knight created the village so that his grandchildren will be safe and warm."

"And the King started the fortress so that the day his people needed it, they had it."

"My King... your right that you will probably never see a Karak Eight Peaks full to the brim with your people. but your actions today means that your grandson can hope too."
 
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I would argue that stealing secrets from the skaven and using it to protect those facing them is a far better dedication to Ranald than building a temple.

Though I'll take what I can get.
Our primary objective in taking this prisoner was "Queekish." We didn't take an action devoted to gaining actionable intel about the skaven this turn, but we were lucky and managed it anyway, and that intel protected.

Besides, I think it will be much easier to leverage the Deceiver lie into him deciding to help us if we limit our ambitions. "Give me this one thing so that I can destroy our mutual enemy" goes over a lot better than "give me this one thing so that I can destroy our mutual enemy, but also give me intel about the empire you seem to be loyal to."
we have for actions,so
Can only be done if we Overwork again, which is a bad idea, or drop the tower, which is also a bad idea.
 
Belegar needs all of the hugs...
Roswita, Friend To All Wizards is fun, but the Belegar snippet was pretty goddamn brutal. A 40 year old artisan taking what I assume is a lifelong Slayer oath because he's not a great warrior...

Someone was asking how we fix Belegar. I don't think we can. This is just how it is on this bitch of an earth in the twilight of the Karaz Ankor.
 
Our primary objective in taking this prisoner was "Queekish." We didn't take an action devoted to gaining actionable intel about the skaven this turn, but we were lucky and managed it anyway, and that intel protected.

Besides, I think it will be much easier to leverage the Deceiver lie into him deciding to help us if we limit our ambitions. "Give me this one thing so that I can destroy our mutual enemy" goes over a lot better than "give me this one thing so that I can destroy our mutual enemy, but also give me intel about the empire you seem to be loyal to."

Can only be done if we Overwork again, which is a bad idea, or drop the tower, which is also a bad idea.
tower, queekish, invisibility, temple = 4 unless I am miscounting?
 
So, anyway, I'm looking at our choices here, and a lot seems to depend on what our next move is. If we keep working on the Tower (The whole "We're going to try and sand off some edge cases" approach), I'd probably say put one action in there because the job is done and there's not too much else we can add to it that isn't going to be redundant.

Then we'd have three left.

One needs to go to squeezing our prisoner--and for that, we need to make sure that we've got the Deciever on so we can appropriately set up our ruse cruise--and that leaves two left. One of which must be used learning Invisibility to avoid Unprepared fucking us.

What should we do with the last one in that case? See if we can give Edda a crash course in how to Umgi? Get the We's telepathy studied so we can get started writing the book on them?

Huh

You know, we could probably center getting written Queekish through that book we decided to pocket? "This is from your place, your work?" And walking him through it while we're secretly building a Queekish lexicon and making him think what we're actually doing is gathering data on a potential foe that's also a historical rival to them.

A good con needs props after all!
 
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tower, queekish, invisibility, temple = 4 unless I am miscounting?
Yes. @Quest was advocating for Tower, Invisibility, Queekish, interrogate for intel. Two separate Qrech actions.
What should we do with the last one in that case? See if we can give Edda a crash course in how to Umgi? Get the We's telepathy studied so we can get started writing the book on them?
Temple to Ranald the Gambler.
You know, we could probably center getting written Queekish through that book we decided to pocket? "This is from your place, your work?" And walking him through it while we're secretly building a Queekish lexicon and making him think what we're actually doing is gathering data on a potential foe that's also a historical rival to them.

A good con needs props after all!
Not a bad idea at all.
 
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I'm sad how canon and even fanfiction treats Karl Franz like yesterday's garbage, even if it was an unintended consequence in this quest. Dude has so much potential as the greatest human diplomat and statesman since Magnus but is only known as having to helplessly witness the End Times and become a meatpuppet for Sigmar.

I recall one bad GoT/WHF crossover fic having Karl be randomly turned into a Grail Knight because the author didn't think Karl was cool enough without a perk like that.
 
I agree with this. Short of fusing Ghyran and Valaya's blessings to help the dwarf people repopulate, their material circumstances will take centuries to improve. We can't fix that. We need to convince them that the greatest days of the Dawi lie in the future at all.
We've been given wide authority to build magical towers. And the first fuses magical and divine energies to destroy the enemy. Why not push for the Tower of Fertility?
 
Oh, my mistake, in that case I would argue for putting off the interrogation until next turn, there is a small chance that he escapes, but the spiritual needs of us and the Undumgi are filled.
Keep in mind that next turn's Penthouse vote will contain an opportunity to put additional security on the place, which I am absolutely going to advocate for as hard as we can.
We've been given wide authority to build magical towers. And the first fuses magical and divine energies to destroy the enemy. Why not push for the Tower of Fertility?
Because 1) we're not a Jade wizard, so we don't have the expertise for this 2) using Wind magic on the Dawi in a constant way (as a general fertility blessing would be) runs into their magical resistance, which best case reduces the effectiveness and worst case turns them to stone 3) getting the informed consent of the dwarf people to meddle with their reproductive cycle might be kind of tricky.
 
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Hmm, once we've learnt queekish in the written form i'm kind of excited by the idea of just going on a trip into Skyre or Mors territory with a big sack and stealing books. All the books.
I can just imagine the library after that:
Skaven +12 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven / Extensive Skaven
Romance +7 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Druchii / Extensive Skaven
At this point most of her literaly sources on romance will come from evil races. Boy I can't wait to see how it warps her tastes.
 
What should we do with the last one in that case? See if we can give Edda a crash course in how to Umgi? Get the We's telepathy studied so we can get started writing the book on them?
Edda is not an idiot, she knows she has a weak point, let's give her time to figure out a solution before we shoulder our way in.

Snek-Juice. don't get distracted. that's how boney gets us.
 
If we try to help Belegar by getting him to 'steer into' the spin, it sort of becomes a race between him going slayer for heterodox behaviour, and the halls of the ancestors filling up fast enough to buoy his spirits.

I don't know anything ( in a general sense but on this situation also) but maybe making sure he's happily married (to good political effect, too) is the best way in the short term; maybe to one of kazador's brood, but maybe not.

I mean, we do have all these dwarf romance novels lying around....
 
We've been given wide authority to build magical towers. And the first fuses magical and divine energies to destroy the enemy. Why not push for the Tower of Fertility?

Dwarfs do not react well to Wind-based magic, as in the probably turn to stone because of it (I say probably because it might be the Chaos rather than general arcane magic that turns the sorcerer priests of Hashut to stone)
 
Like, I get that shoddy and man-made are the same word in Khazalid, but... the Fully Operational Battle Mountain wouldn't be out of place in the sort of stuff the War of the Beard cooked up. As far as anybody watching can tell, it literally swivels the heavens around to blot out the sun, and then baths people in the flames of dwarven hell. Kragg the Grimm called it a Masterwork. This is, or is coming up on, the nigh-mythical good enough. To steal a phrase, this is the sort of thing that dwarves can compliment without needing to silently append 'for this fallen and degraded era of the dwarven people'.

In so much as the ancestor gods approve of anything newfangled, Battle Mountains are probably at the top of the list.
It's pretty tempting to pick up some Clear Sky items, but given the relatively small area they clear up it'd probably be more efficient to try and get a permanent enchantment attached to/ near the death beam, I just worry that the celestial juice wouldn't play nice with the tower as a whole.

I suppose if we get the item version we really only have to pop a hole in the cloud coverage to locate the sun and then another to get the tower angle correct for a sky swap. :V
I think the issue is more that most of the mountain is above the clouds, so the weather is in the way of all the shadowy death fire.
@BoneyM Does the ease of representing its complex structures through a hologram, and the incredible popularity that an entire new Lesser spell added to the curriculum brings, revitalize the efforts of adapting the Matrix?
Come to think of it, a lot of the internal structures of most spells might be more adequately explained with an enchanted holographic visual than with the written word (though not all, of course).

The ability to just make images of whatever you're thinking about as a lesser magic is going to see some amazing utility, yes. Battlefields, school rooms, schematics, even as a visual aid for intense conversations.
Roswita, Friend To All Wizards is fun, but the Belegar snippet was pretty goddamn brutal. A 40 year old artisan taking what I assume is a lifelong Slayer oath because he's not a great warrior...

Someone was asking how we fix Belegar. I don't think we can. This is just how it is on this bitch of an earth in the twilight of the Karaz Ankor.
I think we might actually be pretty close to an answer, sort of. Nothing concrete, but the thing about the twilight of the Karaz Ankor is that, like Kragg said, there used to be eight proper holds, and now there are nine. There used to not be battle mountains, and now battle mountains are a thing. Glory isn't quite it, but it might be close; not the sort of glory where you take out a hundred trolls before they get you, but the sort where you take out ten trolls and then live to do it again.
 
Belegars issue comes from the inherent contradiction of what he's doing
He's decided that the traditions of the past aren't what drive him, but then what does?
If he isn't avenging grudges then he's preserving Dwarf lives right? But if that's the case then why is he leading his people into a war zone, encouraging others of his kind to settle in an area that might not be safe, telling his brother kings to gamble on his success?
Well he's rebuilding 8 Peaks then, restoring it to it's former glory for his people. But at what cost? If it costs the lives of his people and the very traditions that 8 Peaks represents in their hearts then what's the point?

He knows that he's fighting for something, and he has to believe that whatever that may be that it's worth it, but he isn't sure what that actually is
And that weighs heavily on him
At the very least he can tell himself that Karak Azul would not exist as it currently does without him, but that's only a partial salve
 
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"Karak Azul?" you hazard.

I'm reminded of the quote about the iron. "Give them everything we have, and if it isn't enough I'll pull more out of the mountain with my bare hands." or something similar

"The kind that would have been very bad news, except it ends with 'and you took care of it'?"

absolutely not. :3

But then you flip further and find a sparse few paragraphs in which a Bright College Lord Magister guts your spell, replaces its innards with a few simple flourishes, and sends it on its way, simplified enough for any Apprentice to cast. Following that is eight near-identical letters informing you that your spell has been added to the curricula of all eight Colleges.

holy shit on a sandwich that's... wow

"He's beautiful," she says dreamily.

He's really not.

newborns are ugly as fuck to everyone but the parents

"Good morning, fellow Councillor," you say with a smile. "I applaud your dedication, to be getting to bed this early in the morning."

"Ah," she says, brain trying to go from zero to a sprint in an instant. "Magister Weber."

"I must also applaud Prince Kazrik for providing such prolonged assistance to you."

"Yes," she says. "Assistance. We were-"

"Grungen? Developing bokkul? Adgalazgandit?"

I missed Mathilde being a little shit :)

"They're like cats!" Roswita shouts, waving her arms out the window of the briefing room in the general direction of the battlefields of Sylvania. "Every day, someone with fire instead of hair or surrounded by birds or a skull instead of a face wanders in and drops off a Vampire skull or the head of some forest mutant or a cartload of bones and I say thank you and they act like I've thrown a party and named my firstborn after them, and they go off to find something even worse to drag back! Look what they did to my table!"

it could be worse. they could be bringing back live specimens

EDIT: Johann absolutely has Big Himbo Energy
 
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we have four actions,so

I'm fine with that. I just think we can spend another action getting actionable intel for the various wars we've just triggered and don't want to go sour.
Our primary objective in taking this prisoner was "Queekish." We didn't take an action devoted to gaining actionable intel about the skaven this turn, but we were lucky and managed it anyway, and that intel protected.

Besides, I think it will be much easier to leverage the Deceiver lie into him deciding to help us if we limit our ambitions. "Give me this one thing so that I can destroy our mutual enemy" goes over a lot better than "give me this one thing so that I can destroy our mutual enemy, but also give me intel about the empire you seem to be loyal to."
I think learning Queekish is important, but I think when a war is going on actionable intel is just as if not more important.

I think otherwise. If we want to learn Queekish we want to make sure he doesn't realise that it's that important. "I want more information those traitorous clans of yours. They are mutual enemies. By the way, teach me queekish for impressing my superiors because I can't use the normal resources for *insert reason*"
 
I think the issue is more that most of the mountain is above the clouds, so the weather is in the way of all the shadowy death fire.
It's unclear how tall the mountain actually is in quest canon, since game canon's numbers are absurd. But if the fires of hell can burn through steel armor, they can burn through some clouds.
We can't, or he goes insane.
wrecks was responding to my proposal to spend one action with him next turn, rather than Quest's proposal which spends two. Nobody is proposing zero.
Belegars issue comes from the inherent contradiction of what he's doing
He's decided that the traditions of the past aren't what drive him, but then what does?
If he isn't avenging grudges then he's preserving Dwarf lives right? But if that's the case then why is he leading his people into a war zone, encouraging others of his kind to settle in an area that might not be safe, telling his brother kings to gamble on his success?
Well then he's rebuilding 8 Peaks then, restoring it to it's former glory for his people. But at what cost? If it costs the link best of his people and the very traditions that 8 Peaks represents in their hearts then what's the point?

He knows that he's fighting for something, and he has to believe that whatever that may be that it's worth it, but he isn't sure what that actually is
And that weighs heavily on him
At the very least he can tell himself that Karak Azul would not exist as it currently does without him, but that's only a partial salve
Yeah. I think the best tack to take is not restoring former glory, but surpassing it. Convincing him that the best days of the dwarf people are ahead of them, not behind them.
I think otherwise. If we want to learn Queekish we want to make sure he doesn't realise that it's that important. "I want more information those traitorous clans of yours. They are mutual enemies. By the way, teach me queekish for impressing my superiors because I can't use the normal resources for *insert reason*"
So the thing is, there are two "interrogate prisoner to gain intel about" topics. One is the skaven race in general (presumably including information about the Under-Empire), and one is about the skaven at Eight Peaks. The second one is what you're proposing here, but it's not intel that we can use any time soon for the Protector reasons that you advocated, because our strategic position here is predicated on "delay the skaven deciding we're a threat." And so while I completely agree with the Deceiver plan you are laying out here, I don't think getting intel on the K8P skaven is useful this coming turn.
 
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